Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a friend of mine has been playing Chaos as long as I have known him and the poor guy has had some very awful luck in our league games. He is a competent player but he is losing to people i consider under his tier of skill. I was hoping i could hear some suggestions on how to make CSM competitive and an all comers/issues list to some degree.

You need to post his current list, his tactics, and his unit preferences before we can really give proper feedback.

 AresX8 wrote:
You need to post his current list, his tactics, and his unit preferences before we can really give proper feedback.

The idea of his lists have been changing as we go. Most solidly he lost to a necron force

He was using 5 nurgle spawn, 1 mauler fiend, 1 chaos lord of khorne, 20 cultists, 1 rhino, 8 zerkers. ageis defense line + icarus cannon. I told him he should try a bit more reliance on guns to compliment his assaulting and i think having a rhino full of zerkers using spawn and fiends as cover as they apporach is a fine tactic but i am noticing he misses alot of long range support.

These are the best units in the Dex:

Spawn
Helldrakes
Nurgle Bikes
Havocs
Nurgle Lord on a Bike
Unmarked Sorcerers on a Bike.

I'd suggest that he doubles up on his spawn and adds some bikes or a helldrake.
Ditch the zerkers in a rhino, that's like running up a very steep hill trying to use them.

Think about allies also.
Wraiths are sweet.
So are Screamers and Flamers.

Get as dirty/cheesy as you can be because other armies you face will be aiming for the most dirt possible so why shouldnt you?

Think about adding Maulerfiends also.
Can you imagine the rush of Spawn/Bikes and Fiends into your opponents ranks turn 2?

Consider Typhus also and a horde of Zombies, bodies everywhere will guarantee objectives claimed somewhere, in addition the amount of bodies you can put on the table will limit the ability of enemy flyers to move where they want to go.

Good luck.

I've been spamming Plague Marines with good luck thus far. I

've been bringing about 40-50 depending on the point level, and a nurgle lord. Sometimes Ill add an unmarked sorcerer. These all ride in rhinos to mid-field and I focus on mid field control.

The army is extremely durable, though has a few bad match ups. Orks with MANZ can be a big problem. DE venom spam can be a problem.

Plague Marines

Heldrakes

????

Profit

But seriously; T5 everything you can, and buy 3 flying baleflamers. You won't regret it for a second.

Oh, another trick I've been using Epidemius + 10 plague bearers.

I deep strike Epi close to my table edge and stick him in ruins on my side of the board.

My opponent must focus on Epi, especially as the game continues. When the tally caps out, every PM has a 3+ FNP, their bolters/knives ignore armor, and their poisoned attacks go to a 2+ to wound. At that point they must focus everything they can on getting to the other side of the board to kill epi

For a 260 point unit, its very good in bigger games.

Your friend's list is very gimp. None of his units can do much damage. A melta gun or two will neutralize the mauler. Spawn are not a huge threat especially if your opponent has a dreadnought. Cultists are worthless troops that can only objective camp. Berzerkers take 3 turns to get anywhere and should be shot to pieces long before they do so.

There really won't be any way to make that list workl

Noise marines are excellent if you want a shooty list take big units 10+ with a blastmaster sonic blasters and the icon of excess 2 or 3 of these squads put out a lot of firepower hide them behind a big squad of cultists and now you have a 3+ armour 4+ cover and a 5+FNP save plus because noise wepons have denys cover the enemy get no save from you shooting through your own unit

Actually, my understanding is that anything nurgle is good. Khorne Bezerkers are no longer fearless, which is stupid. Chosen are woeful. Though Slaanesh Raptors are good... though getting bikes with the mark of Nurgle is brutal. Can you do that actally....? Oh well, those are just my limited contributions.

I have had success running oblits and mutliators as 'lone wolves'.

Run a blob of cultists with termy lord and sorc trying to get invis, add in a spawn unit and you have a nice pair of anvils. The termys( muts, oblits, characters) are the hammer.

I round it off with heldrakes and 3 CSM squads in rhinos with havoc launchers (imo just as good as autocannon havocs)

All in all, this list has 18 kps, but SO many targets.

*edit- MoN on all oblits, muts and lord. not being insta-gibbed by lascannons, blasters and missles is too good.

Teddy183 wrote:
Actually, my understanding is that anything nurgle is good. Khorne Bezerkers are no longer fearless, which is stupid. Chosen are woeful. Though Slaanesh Raptors are good... though getting bikes with the mark of Nurgle is brutal. Can you do that actally....? Oh well, those are just my limited contributions.

Khorne Berserkers are still fearless.

Teddy183 wrote:
Actually, my understanding is that anything nurgle is good.

Added toughness is excellent.

Teddy183 wrote:
Khorne Bezerkers are no longer fearless, which is stupid.

As Sasori mentioned, they are still fearless

Teddy183 wrote:
Chosen are woeful.

Chosen are not bad. They don't pay the 10 point surcharge for a champion like most other units do. They can all carry a PG. They are good in assault with an extra CCW and 2 attacks base. Their not rock-stars, but their not woeful.

Teddy183 wrote:
though getting bikes with the mark of Nurgle is brutal. Can you do that actally....?

Yes. Nurgle bikes are highly effective. Sadly they are spendy on the wallet if not in points.

The way the codex seems to be shaking out here is that it is very similar to the previous version in that "all Nurgle all the time" seems to be working wonders for people. Taking PMs along with some drakes appears to create a list that at least keeps you in the game against almost everyone. Just add in your heavy support as needed for the armies you think you will face and you're good to go. Just make sure you have some redundancy. One of anything is generally bad. You should try to have back-ups for your units.

I sympathize with your friend, the new Codex is a little more nuanced than earlier ones and the decisions you have to make about how to compose a force are a little more complex.

The thing about it is Chaos armies can do some things very well, but there is little affinity between the various styles of play. My advice is to pick one and stick to it. This is not so much a matter of playstyle as force composition, it just seems to me Chaos armies do better when they are built around a single theme and stick to it as much as possible.

Here's what I mean:

- We have very tough units with T5 and FnP, like Nurgle / Slaanesh Bikers, Noise Marines, Terminators, etc.

- We have very good cc units, like Khorne CSMs, Maulerfiends, Daemon Princes, Spawn.

- We have very shooty units, like Noise Marines, Havocs, Heldrakes, Obliterators, and Predators.

- We also now have very big units, and by that I mean cultists.

The core of my army is 4 squads of Noise Marines with Sonic Weapons and a Chaos Lord with MoS. At over 1000 points, it means my army is going to be shooty. They do best when they have other shooty units around them, like Predators and Havocs, or when they have things with them to help their shooting, like Rhinos that act as mobile cover. They do okay when I bring bikes into the mix, who hit targets that the Noise Marines can't quite get at, or when I bring Obliterators, who are the big guns for the game.

But they do worst when I bring Khorne CSMs into the mix, who always seem to get in the way preparing for charges, or Spawn, who always seem to be tarpitted with the units I would like to shoot up. It would seem like I want a balance between the two, so I can deal with cc threats and present some of my own. But it just doesn't seem to work that way with this Codex.

The other list I have been working with is a dual Daemon Prince list. I tried it a couple times with Noise Marines, it was like the DPs were always getting in the NMs way and vice versa. So I switched to 5 units of Khorne CSMs and 2 large plasma biker units. Nothing shooty except for Oblierators. This list just feels right, the DPs and bikers hit at the same time, and the CSMs have time to run up the field and start smashing things. Everything is assaulting by turn 4 and no units are ever competing with each other for targets.

I like the shooty list more. Sure, there are better shooters in the game, but they are not as tough and can't lay out as many shots as the NMs. The assault list is also pretty vicious.

The thing about it is Chaos armies can do some things very well, but there is little affinity between the various styles of play. My advice is to pick one and stick to it. This is not so much a matter of playstyle as force composition, it just seems to me Chaos armies do better when they are built around a single theme and stick to it as much as possible.

That's a very good point. The builds from this book definitely support "either or" types of builds. You need to decide what type of army you want and pick units accordingly.

@Tycho - thanks.

I was explaining this to someone the other day.

The new Codex is a like a box of hammers, but you are forced to choose one. That hammer will let you compose a one-dimensional army, but it will be extremely good at what it does. The rest comes down to tactics.

Instead of berserkers you could turn him on to Fabulous Bill's all natural male enhancement. And when you get Bill going with his buddy Huron, you know you're in for a party.

The problem with berserkers is that they make for much better defensive units than aggressive, they don't get to pick their targets very well and they aren't amazing in combat, though their weight of attacks tends to help out a lot vs weird targets like THSS. They will protect the heck out of your scoring units while being kind of neat to press with in a pinch. I'd stick with sneakier harrying options for being aggressive in this dex like small units of bikes or spawn, but some people like to push their luck and go big, it's a taste thing. I like MSU of those fast things because they still do a pretty solid job mucking things up at those sizes and are really not attractive shooting investments.

Ummm what was I saying?
Yeah 13 point BPCC CSM with +1S and fearless infiltrating into somewhere that they are a big unpleasant inevitability is pretty cute. You can take lots of them and feel like you're covered for pressing into backfield objectives. Equipping these dorks with MoS and Icon is also a trick I've heard people using. Kinda like having BA assault squads.

The problem with this formula of course, is you don't have many options with the rest of your scoring units. Usually with a big payload of dorks or two (Huron and Bill also give fearless to whatever units they join) I'd be inclined to ram some MSU special weapons spam in there, and you don't exactly have room for a plague lord.

Anyway for just a solid core here's my go to jumping off point

3x 10 CSM 2xplasma rhino (plus or minus a havoc or combi melta on top)

2x 3 Bikers with 2 melta and combi melta

Fire breathing Drake

3x 5 auto cannon havocs (aegis defense line optional)

That comes out to like 1335 without the extras I think. Scale up or down depending on what you are looking for. More scoring units are always nice. I like this core because your heavy support and fast options are very trim and give you more points to throw around while covering your bases.

I support Lucre on his stance, while new to CSM from a BA background it takes only a little work to see the 'easy' strengths of the CSM codex and how they can support each other.

Cheap bikers (either MoN or I prefer MoS with IoE) with melta
- hella cheap for what they offer, threat range, screening, contesting, tank popping... It's the jack of all trades unit.

Mid ranged units in rhinos (noise, plague or basic) with noise, plasma or melta.Kitted to again deal with Most targets.

Havoc/oblit/pred - something to reach out and pop their transports etc.

The rest is gravy. Flying dragons, terminator suicide squads, scary demon bits etc.