Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Couldn't find anything on it.

Player successfully passes his Init test to Hit and Run out. He picks his direction, and rolls himself off the table. Is the unit counted as being destroyed?

In previous editions we would've thought yes, no doubt. We decided to have some fun and play it as 'Ongoing Reserves' as it fits the spirit. Thoughts?

"Models cannot... voluntarily move off the board." P.10

The unit is not destroyed, the unit stops at the board edge as you cant move off the board voluntarily.

Is the move considered Voluntary if you can't control the distance rolled? If Hit and Run is considered a Voluntary move, then a player who chooses to Hit and Run wouldn't be allowed to pick a direction that COULD take him off the board. He would have to pick a direction where the unit that is going to move would have up to the full 18" available to him right?

The stopping at the board edge is one way to deal with it, but I can't see anything to support that. It also conflicts with the Hit and Run rule in moving the full 3d6". I don't have a problem with this, other than I see it being bent to Hit and Run directly toward a board edge to deliberately shorten the distance that could be forced by the Hit and Run. Say a combat is happening 5" from the board edge, the unit successfully Hit and Runs, and chooses that Edge, and only goes 5" to the edge. This would allow that unit greater freedom/lower risk to get to where the controlling player would want, effectively getting around the risk/unpredictability of the 3d6".

Im not going to argue that every player who uses Hit and Run should always pick the least risky distance. Players should have the option to weigh the risks in picking a direction where there is only 15" of board space between his unit and the edge.

But you choose to use the Hit and run rule, so it is a Voluntary move.

You are not forced into moving, as you do not have to Hit and Run, indeed you do not even have to move toward the table edge, but instead you have to choose to move in a certain direction.

 Akar wrote:
If Hit and Run is considered a Voluntary move, then a player who chooses to Hit and Run wouldn't be allowed to pick a direction that COULD take him off the board. He would have to pick a direction where the unit that is going to move would have up to the full 18" available to him right?

That sounds about right.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But you choose to use the Hit and run rule, so it is a Voluntary move.

You are not forced into moving, as you do not have to Hit and Run, indeed you do not even have to move toward the table edge, but instead you have to choose to move in a certain direction.

 Akar wrote:
If Hit and Run is considered a Voluntary move, then a player who chooses to Hit and Run wouldn't be allowed to pick a direction that COULD take him off the board. He would have to pick a direction where the unit that is going to move would have up to the full 18" available to him right?

That sounds about right.

Hit and run isn't Guaranteed to move anywhere though. If it was Voluntary wouldn't you always move?

So you are saying It is a compulsory move that must be performed, or do you get to choose to use Hit and Run to move out of combat.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you are saying It is a compulsory move that must be performed, or do you get to choose to use Hit and Run to move out of combat.

I was genuinely asking. I hadn't looked it up in 6th. I'll brb after a quick review of the BGB.

I agree with DR that they would stop at the board edge.

Fragile wrote:
I agree with DR that they would stop at the board edge.

Agreed. After a quick read it's the only one that makes sense.

It is a 'middle' ground solution that temporarily solves a problem. I do agree that the ability to Hit and Run is a Voluntary choice as well as the direction to move. The distance however, is compulsary, as players no longer have the option to move 'up to the distance rolled'. Unless Im missing that FAQ, but I think it's an older FAQ. I don't want to turn this into a thread about whether units have to move the full distance or 'up to', Im just tryin to figure out what happens when they hit a board edge.

The problem I have with the 'they stop at the edge' would be Space Marines and Combat Tactics. A Space Marine unit can choose to fail any morale test they are called upon to make. This is a Voluntary option. So if a unit is close enough to the board edge, following this logic, they would stop at the board edge. It's that or they can't voluntarily fail the check cause this might take them off the board edge.

Yes Im perfectly aware we're dealing with 2 different rules here, but they function the same. The player has a voluntary action in response to an event in game. In the case of Hit and Run, a player can choose to do it or not. His Voluntary part ends when he makes the test. If he passess the test, then everything else HAS to occur, his voluntary part has ended. The only other option allowed in the BRB that gives a player a choice is the direction. Which leads me to believe that the player must pick a direction with a potential 18" of space free, in keeping with the rule on pg. 10.

 Akar wrote:
Im just tryin to figure out what happens when they hit a board edge.

RAW No one knows, as they do not say what happens if the move takes them off the board edge.

HIWPI Either:

The unit stops at the board edge.

Or

The unit can not move that way and must adjust the angle of retreat so they are not interacting with the board edge at all.

I thought units that move off the board went into ongoing reserves (unless falling back obviously). Since you pick a direction the move a random amount I don't see how the move can be considered voluntary moving off.

wtnind wrote:
I thought units that move off the board went into ongoing reserves (unless falling back obviously). Since you pick a direction the move a random amount I don't see how the move can be considered voluntary moving off.

You picked the direction that would potentially take the unit off the board.
That was 100% voluntary - especially in the era of pre-measuring. On top of the fact that Hit and Run is optional in the first place.

wtnind wrote:
I thought units that move off the board went into ongoing reserves (unless falling back obviously). Since you pick a direction the move a random amount I don't see how the move can be considered voluntary moving off.

Flyers go into reserve. Other units have no permission to do so.
I really don't see how it isn't voluntary. You choose to move, you choose the direction.
It's like saying launching an Assault is compulsory, as it's also a random distance.

Wouldn't it better to say that if you pick a direction that leads to the edge and the roll is too high then you do not move at all and still in combat?

I see no reason or rule for why you would stop at the board edge.

If you cannot voluntarily move off the table and you roll too high then you should be stuck in combat.

my two cents anyway.

40k-noob wrote:
Wouldn't it better to say that if you pick a direction that leads to the edge and the roll is too high then you do not move at all and still in combat?

I see no reason or rule for why you would stop at the board edge.

If you cannot voluntarily move off the table and you roll too high then you should be stuck in combat.

my two cents anyway.

There are no rules that cover that situation at all, so we have to fudge them enough to make the situation work.

Possible workarounds:

The unit treats the board edge as impassible terrain and must stop at the board edge.

The unit treats the board edge as an enemy unit and must stop 1 inch from the board edge.

The unit moves to the board edge and then moves laterally along the edge to use up any remaining movement

You must pick a legal direction after you find out the direction you chose would take you off the board.

Something else your group agree's on.

40k-noob wrote:
Wouldn't it better to say that if you pick a direction that leads to the edge and the roll is too high then you do not move at all and still in combat?

I see no reason or rule for why you would stop at the board edge.

If you cannot voluntarily move off the table and you roll too high then you should be stuck in combat.

my two cents anyway.

I agree that this is the least offensive way to make the rule "work." As in if you cannot do it then the action fails. Otherwise I think the argument is much stronger for the units moving off the board and being destroyed as a result (like fleeing off the back edge).

I wasn't trying to knock DeathReaper's method of resolution. I think it's a fine way to settle it until it gets fixed. I was only arguing him stating it as fact, as if there was a rule that addressed it. His list to cover all the possible outcomes is now what I think I am looking for, but also adding in 'Ongoing Reserves' as a possibility, just a weak one.

I also really like 40k-Noob's solution, that if they would go off the board, then they stay since they can't perform the move.

Not a big supporter of the 'they are destroyed' since it's not a fall back move and all wording of automatically rallying like it used to be back in 4th (?) are gone.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in on this one though.

isnt the rule you use hit and run, roll init test, pass, roll 3 dice then move up to die total away in your choice of a direction?

Lungpickle wrote:
isnt the rule you use hit and run, roll init test, pass, roll 3 dice then move up to die total away in your choice of a direction?

Yes, but in this order:

Take Init test to use Hit and run.
Pick Direction
Roll 3D6 to move that far in said direction.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
isnt the rule you use hit and run, roll init test, pass, roll 3 dice then move up to die total away in your choice of a direction?

Yes, but in this order:

Take Init test to use Hit and run.
Pick Direction
Roll 3D6 to move that far in said direction.

So the actually movement part isn't voluntary?
If you rolled the distance, then the direction, then the movement would cause a voluntary departure from the table.
I think it needs to be FAQ'd. I haven't seen any rule support for forcing units to stop at the table edge, or an inch short.
I'd actually learn towards either on going reserves, or unit destroyed, stopping short is breaking the must move full 3D6 of hit and run.

-Matt

Except your choice of direction and subsequent move is voluntary, as you do not have to move at all if you do not choose to hit and run.

Hit and run = movement, choosing to hit and run is choosing to move.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think it needs to be FAQ'd. I haven't seen any rule support for forcing units to stop at the table edge, or an inch short.
I'd actually learn towards either on going reserves, or unit destroyed, stopping short is breaking the must move full 3D6 of hit and run.

-Matt

ongoing reserves and unit destroyed is also breaking the rules.

As I have said earlier in this thread:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Akar wrote:
Im just tryin to figure out what happens when they hit a board edge.

RAW No one knows, as they do not say what happens if the move takes them off the board edge.

HIWPI Either:

The unit stops at the board edge.

Or

The unit can not move that way and must adjust the angle of retreat so they are not interacting with the board edge at all.

That's how I feel about it Hawaiimatt.

Hit and Run is choosing to take a test to see if you can move, not a choice to move in itself. If you pass the test, then you get to pick a direction, and are forced to move. DeathReaper is saying that if you're going to make the test, then you need to first be able to move in a direction that couldn't take you off the board, or will stop at the board edge. To me, Hit and Run is a test, not a move. The move is an effect of passing the test. Regardless of how it's looked out or resolved, the issue remains that there is no instruction on what to do involving the board edge. I believe a player should be able to pick any direction, but that there is a risk associated with picking one that could take the unit off the board. Stopping at the board edge, while a viable solution, eliminates any risk, and circumvents the moving 3D6", which is why I don't think it's as viable an option.

The more I think about it, I'd like to see 'Ongoing Reserves' applied here, since it is no longer a fall back move like it used to be. When it was a fall back move, off the board meant the unit was destroyed. That's not the case anymore.

It is still a choice to move.

We have 2 options Either:

1) Hit and Run is a compulsory move that you must perform every time you are in combat.

Or:

2) Hit and Run is a choice and you do not have to perform the move every time you are in combat.

Which is is 1 or 2?

3) Hit and Run is a choice to Test to see if you get away. If you succeed, you're forced to move X" in a direction of your choice. If you don't, then you're stuck.

 Akar wrote:
3) Hit and Run is a choice to Test to see if you get away. If you succeed, you're forced to move X" in a direction of your choice. If you don't, then you're stuck.

Q: But what does Hit and run do?

A: Lets you take a test to see if you move out of combat.

So you are still choosing to move if you choose to perform a Hit and Run.

So is Hit and run a choice or is it compulsory?

Isnt the board edge normally considered impassable terrain? That would strengthen the "stop at the board edge" theory.

No, it is NOT impassable terrain. It never has been, yet there is still this misconception that it somehow is.

In the last OK book the Scraplauncher had a rule where it would sometimes run 3d6" in a random direction. When I asked the Dakka forums whether this could potentially take the model off the board the answer was a resounding 'No. Models may only move off the board edge while fleeing or pursuing."

Normally I wouldn't post this reference in 40K YMDC, except that 5th Ed 40k is just 8th Ed Fantasy with guns and tanks, and these questions are exactl;y the same in both, and should be answered the same for both.

Board edge is my opinion too