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as the title says, are the dark angels secret traitors?
i know that the they are supposed to be loyal but are they really?

what do you guys think?

No they are probably loyal...

TBH, it's not a mystery. Luther was falling to Chaos. He betrayed the Lion and nearly killed him. Some of the Fallen say that it was the Lion who was corrupted but there is really no evidence for this.

The real secrets they keep hidden are the things that they've done and the people they've double crossed in the search to capture the Fallen.

 Manchu wrote:
Some of the Fallen say that it was the Lion who was corrupted but there is really no evidence for this.

They said that because the Lion took time to get to Terra because he was playing hide and seek game with Kurze, what was exactly his plan.

"Tired of this constant battle the Night Hunter invited Lion EL´Jonson to parley on the planet of Tsagualsa. Here Konrad Kurze once again mocked the Dark Angels telling Lion EL´Jonson on how in the future the Dark Angels would be called into question as to whether they were truly loyal or just waiting on the sideline to join with who so ever won the battle. Being dragged back to their individual ships while flinging curses at one another, the Lion swore that he wouldn´t return to Terra before he had made Konrad Kurze and his legion pay for their insult against the Dark Angels, as such the Lion wasn´t present at the Siege of Terra and was unable to witness as the God-Emperor sacrificed himself to disintegrate the traitor Horus."

Obviously the Fallen was mislead to open fire on "traitor" Lion. The rest is one very sad history.

To the OP, the loyalist Dark Angels are truly loyalist.
As for Fallen, half o the mare fallen to Chaos after being pulled away and the other half remained loyal ( Cypher is one such example ). But I don't think that the loyalist Dark Angels will listen to them or let them go until Lion tells them so.

What are you quoting from?

"Prince of Crowns" and "Collected Visions".

Entire conversation is in there.

Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

What if the reason that Luther was sent back to Caliban was indeed because the Lion was unsure of his loyalties? What about if the Lion knew that Luther was 100% Loyal to the Emperor and he knew if he went with Horus that he’d never be able to turn his brother which is why he moved him out of the picture to let the story play out?

What if Luther found out about the Lions Heresy? And this is the reason that they were destroyed? A Primarch with so much hold over his followers has much power as we have seen, power enough to manipulate a story? What if the Lion actually did fall a traitor and the real truth the watchers in the dark hold is this fact? A truth that would surely rip the legion apart. A truth that is held back for the greater good? And even to this day the legion believe that they are hunting Traitors from their own chapter.

His story always read to me that he was slightly tainted by the warp from growing up in the wild surrounded by it and the warp creatures (great beasts)in the northwilds of Caliban. But fought to keep it in check with feats of arms to prove his loyalty to the Imperium. That's why he went so mad at Kruze because he cut too close to the heart of the truth of his two sides.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

The Lion was loyal to the Emperor. He was the only person he was loyal to besides himself.

That sounds like something Luther would say.

 Manchu wrote:

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

Consider this.

What if? Horus was secretly a loyalist?

This is a dumb game.

Dumb? For a 'MOD' you should be more considerate to its users. I thought the idea of a forum was to discuss, speculate and generally talk about different things. If we all had the same opinions it wouldn't make for much discussion now would it?

Anyway, there is plenty out there in the way of speculation that suggests that the lion wasn't your altogether straight forward loyalist.

Ooo yes, "the Lion" story shows that he has a hidden agenda...but this is new path from BL, which is very different from the old stuff...

DILL3NGER wrote:
Consider this.

What if? The Lion was an undecided traitor?

What if the reason that Luther was sent back to Caliban was indeed because the Lion was unsure of his loyalties? What about if the Lion knew that Luther was 100% Loyal to the Emperor and he knew if he went with Horus that he’d never be able to turn his brother which is why he moved him out of the picture to let the story play out?

What if Luther found out about the Lions Heresy? And this is the reason that they were destroyed? A Primarch with so much hold over his followers has much power as we have seen, power enough to manipulate a story? What if the Lion actually did fall a traitor and the real truth the watchers in the dark hold is this fact? A truth that would surely rip the legion apart. A truth that is held back for the greater good? And even to this day the legion believe that they are hunting Traitors from their own chapter.

this seems to make sense. although if the lion was a traitor, why would Luther want to be absolved by him? one final victroy as the imperium, and the dark angels cheifly, find out the truth of the lion, that he is a traitor?

Personally speaking I think the way the HH series is going there could be a lot of rewriting of fluff for the DA. The authors themselves have already said that they have artistic lisence on the stories they produce. We've already seen a few twists that have got people up in arms.

I think it would be a great story line. The HH was tragic enough for the imperium as it was but can you imagin the impact on the DA to find that all this time the reason they have been hunting the fallen is because they knew that the Lion was a traitor and have been manipulated into think otherwise?

I'm not saying that the DA are in anyway currently tainted or traitor I'm suggesting that the 'holders of the truth' are manipulating a scenario to keep the legion together. The impact of knowing that their own primarch lied to them and ultimately made them turn their own guns on them to protect himself would break it apart.

So they continue to hunt the only people that know different.

I think it's more of a case of the Lion wanting to hold power and being denied at every turn to hold true power and display his real potential. He often struggled with belonging to a greater universe and purpose and especially with being truthful to himself and who and what he was. It's a common occurrence with survivors who lived alone for such a long time alone.

As far as the whole dark secret thing, It's more like he was to falling to Chaos (wanting power but on his terms), but reneged on the deal as the heresy unfolded, unable to decide if he wanted power for himself or to uphold his faith in the Big E. When Conrad called him on his indecision, he felt pushed, especially with the lost of faith and neglect of his second, Luther. Hence the major push to get back to Caliban, so he could sort himself out.

I would bet that the thing of it is that neither he nor Luther truly fell, but were made to believe that their faith in one another was lost (mostly due to the Lion's inability to trust and have faith in others) causing the only true civil war. With each side acting out at one another blindly, goaded into action, without checking into the reality of the situation (Luther could have been fending off invasion and mistook the fleet for an enemy, and the Lion already suspicious and possibly chasing a foe, made a snap judgement).

The Fallen are survivors who know whom in the Imperium pushed the fracture and the reasoning why the Legion was split.This is what enabled the Horus Heresy could fall out like it did, since the Dark Angels were the last Legion capable of bailing out Terra in time, but got caught up in the crossfire of deceit, most like due to the Alpha Legion/Night Lords interference.

Additionally I would bet that the Unforgiven are traditionally the faction that stayed true to Lion (and Imperium),eventually realizing (at least initially) that the Fallen were largely innocent of wrong doing. But since the Imperium demanded a reason and a price for the lack of Dark Angels aid, blame had to be placed somewhere, so they are forced to chase the Fallen so the Legion/chapter didn't get destroyed as Traitors. And like all Marines at the time, the Fallen largely fell to Chaos out of desperation for salvation and the hope of clearing their 'crimes'.

i

Many of the Fallen may not be traitors. They were simply tricked into what happened.

Of course the Dark Angels themselves arn't traitors. The Lion may have been though.

DILL3NGER wrote:
Dumb? For a 'MOD' you should be more considerate to its users. I thought the idea of a forum was to discuss, speculate and generally talk about different things. If we all had the same opinions it wouldn't make for much discussion now would it?

Are you saying that your opinion is that the Lion and the Loyalist Dark Angels are actually traitors? If so, it's still my opinion that it's dumb to think that. It's dumb because not only is there no evidence that they were traitors but there is good evidence that they were loyal. But I didn't take your statement to mean that you actually believed them to be traitors. Rather, I thought you were playing a kind of game where we ignore all the evidence and just make up crazy stuff. So, in such a game, we could say Horus was a loyalist. But my conclusion is, as I said, that this is just a dumb game.


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 Bloody Adair wrote:
It's more like he was to falling to Chaos (wanting power but on his terms)

How is this "falling to Chaos"? He was designed to be one of the leaders of humanity and that's what he did. He was second only to the Emperor and he never broke faith with the Emperor. He was prideful, yes, but that pride never came before his commitment to the Imperium -- unlike Horus.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
I would bet that the thing of it is that neither he nor Luther truly fell

Luther absolutely fell. He regretted it, unlike Abaddon and more than Ahriman, but he fell nonetheless.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
the Imperium demanded a reason and a price for the lack of Dark Angels aid

What? No one knows what happened to the DA except the DA. They are driven by their own sense of honor and dishonor, not the demands of outsiders.


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 Grey Templar wrote:
Many of the Fallen may not be traitors. They were simply tricked into what happened.

A SM who can be tricked into betraying his Primarch is a traitor. The world of 40k has tougher standards than the real world in matters like this. SM are supposed to be faultlessly loyal. If there is even a tiny flaw, the whole of their loyalty is in question. This is why the DA are so obsessed with the Fallen in the first place.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Of course the Dark Angels themselves arn't traitors. The Lion may have been though.

Based on ... ?

Maybe at first neither were Traitors. And were tricked into turning in on itself. If that's the case it sounds like it went "All according to plan" either way I seriously doubt that the fallen haven't been tainted since then. This rendering the point kind of moot.

The problem is that the Fallen became the Fallen by being tainted. Whether they have become more corrupted since is a case-by-case issue. But they surely have not been redeemed. The only redemption for them is confession, repentance, contrition, death, and whatever punishment comes after that.

Exactly my point

 Manchu wrote:
That sounds like something Luther would say.

Probably because it is entirely true.

can i ask Manchu to be a bit less aggressive towards the whole thing. this is a discussion after all.

the lion may at least be tainted by chaos, he did spend his early life in a forest surrounded by warp mutated beasts after all and he does seem incredibly secretive (he could give alpharius a lesson or two)

Tainted? THE Lion?

Let me get you a seat over there where brother interrogator will have a nice and short interview...

Basically, BL shot this down with their HH-series.
Chaos aimed for 50% of the Primarchs, but only got 9 Legions to fall. The first Legion is the one they didn't manage to trap, the one not to fall. Even if the "fallen" make up for a significant part, the now "traitorLegions" had to "cleanse" their ranks of about 30% too.

A second in command, Luther , has been proven guilty of betrayal of Primarch, Legion and Imperium/Emperor. Those who followed him, aren't innocent. All you can question are the methods of the Dark Angels, but these are also common Problems of a lot of organizations right now in the 40k-verse.
Thus , there is NO secret. Trust me....

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
can i ask Manchu to be a bit less aggressive

Please check your tone arguments at the door.

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
he did spend his early life in a forest surrounded by warp mutated beasts after all

And Sanguinius has giant angel wings. So ... ? Bringing up Jonson's youth like this is not an argument by itself. What exactly about surviving a Warp-tainted primeval forest do you think tainted him?


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 1hadhq wrote:
All you can question are the methods of the Dark Angels, but these are also common Problems of a lot of organizations right now in the 40k-verse.

Yep, well said. The DA are secretive because they are ashamed. But the source of their shame is their loyalty. This is the same dynamic that led the Lion to pursue (and eventually beat the gak out of) the Nighthaunter. You can question their judgment but not their loyalty. The same is true for Guilliman.

In defense to my statement about Lion and being tainted; even when one is entitled to power and has tons of it, does not absolve them of desiring more. And in being designed with the aid of Chaos, no Primarch is untouched. The difference lies in the upbringing of each and how they handled their problems. And the Lion did this alone, fighting against darkness alone.

Lion was supposedly 1st in succession and most like the Emperor in being the first born; it makes me wonder if the Lion had certain 'plans' and whether or not he was being manipulated by the Lords of Terra or perhaps even his brother Primarchs into isolating himself further. The problem is he is so darn aloof from everyone it's difficult to say where his true loyalties lie (Emperor, Imperium, or himself)

And besides all Luther really wanted was his Primarch to appreciate him and give him a hug!

On the subject of Luther; sure he gave into the lures of Chaos, but unlike others who embraced it, he mourned the decision and refuse to succumb completely.


And while no one outside of the DA may know the absolute truth, I doubt they (being programmed super-soldiers) know it either. My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra. In the age after the HH (where everyone and thing was suspect), they were forced to hunt the Fallen, whether they wanted to (out a sense of honor) or not (survival).

I always preferred the "Angels of Darkness" take on things. I never liked the Lion, I believed Luther all the way.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
even when one is entitled to power and has tons of it, does not absolve them of desiring more

Why does one need to be absolved from desiring more power? If the desire for power is a sin, what does that make the Emperor? The sin we're talking about is disloyalty. There is evidence that Jonson wanted to be Warmaster. There is no evidence that he wanted to replace his father.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
Lion was supposedly 1st in succession and most like the Emperor in being the first born

Where are you getting this notion that the Lion was the Emperor's "firstborn"? The Primarchs were grown in vats. We have no sense of whether any of them were grown before or after any of the others. The DA are the First Legion but that has no correlation with Jonson's rank among the Primarchs.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra.

If you didn't make this up, can you provide a source? I think you will find that "the Empire" did not demand anything of the DA. Guilliman demanded the DA break the Legion into Chapters. But there is nothing in Codex Astartes about the Deathwing.


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 riverhawks32 wrote:
I believed Luther all the way.

On what basis? Your dislike of Jonson?

Loving the debate on this by the way, even if Manchu made me cry for calling me dumb. I think I need to state for the record the anything I've said is not necessarily what I believe it's just generalthoughts and musings.

Conspiracy sparks the imagination when there are gaps. The problem I have with the DA story is that it's taken from their perspective. History is written by the victors and the masses believe. I refuse to believe that the lion was whiter than white and Luther was blacker than black. The truth lies I between somewhere.