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I agree with Manchu that there seems to be nothing in the fluff to doubt the Dark Angels loyalty. At least not in the train of thought that is followed here. (That they sometimes disobey direct orders and deny assistance to pursue The Fallen could be called another form of disloyalty, though).
But a lot of other questions that were raised here seem to be perfectly valid, at least if we can trust the Lexicanum. (I didn't read the short stories yet).

1) While the confessions from the Fallen do not necessarily mean that their version is the right one, or question the loyalty of the Dark Angels as such, it DOES allow for doubts on Lion's loyalty or true motives.

2) The Fallen definitely are not loyalist (because that would have prohibited any thoughts of secession or staying with Luther after he demonstrated Chaos powers).
But to be disloyal does not necessarily mean to be chaotic. It means to be renegade. See Soul Drinkers, see Relictors, see Crimson Castellans.

All in all, I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives and on the true reasons of why the Dark Angels hunt The Fallen: just shame of their disloyalty, i.e. "the chapter's shame", or also to silence them, else they disclose "the Primarch's shame".

treslibras wrote:
I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives

Can you be specific?

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
I see grounds for doubts both on Lion El'Jonson's true motives

Can you be specific?

As I said, I have neither read the The Black Pearl nor Unforgiven stories but they seem to confirm what Astelan told in Angels of Darkness.

From Lexicanum:


The direct reference to Lion El'Jonsons taint & alleged fall to Chaos is in Angels of Darkness. But if you have not read that, I wonder why you are discussing in this thread.

 Bloody Adair wrote:
And while no one outside of the DA may know the absolute truth, I doubt they (being programmed super-soldiers) know it either. My point was the Empire demanded a price for the Dark Angels to exist and serve after the Heresy because of the lack of support at the Siege of Terra. In the age after the HH (where everyone and thing was suspect), they were forced to hunt the Fallen, whether they wanted to (out a sense of honor) or not (survival).

Errm, the Dark Angels Inner Circle are the only ones who know (most of) the truth about the Dark Angels' secret sin in the 41st Millennium Imperium. Well, they, Johnson, Luther and whatever Fallen are still at large. A few scattered individuals here and there may also hold a shard of truth, but if the DA ever find out about such a person, they hunt them down to find out what exactly and how much they know. Previous DA Codices actually had special rules to determine whether someone in the opposing army knew anything and if they did capturing them immediately became a DA objective.
(I hope they bring that back in their new Codex.)

Secondly, the Imperium did not demand anything from the Dark Angels after the Heresy, because it was the impending arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves that caused Horus to make his final gambit. It didn't matter how quickly the two Legions were going to arrive, they were always going to be too late.

@treslibras: Your argument boils down to "because the Fallen say so ... over and over."

 Manchu wrote:
@treslibras: Your argument boils down to "because the Fallen say so ... over and over."

That might seem so but it would probably be more accurate as "at least 3 different sources of fluff give an alternative reading of what happened on Caliban"

Unless you want to argue that everything that Loyalists say (in fluff) is right and canon, and everything Renegades say is unfluff and a lie. That would indicate you had issues separating ingame morals and meta-plot information.


Since I am not the master of the WH40K universe, I think that someone at GW gave green lights to have these renegades say what they had to say, for a reason. Could be just to confuse us, and a future DA novel will bring out the truth.
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history. It is a contested version now.

Three different sources have the Fallen telling the same whiny story. So what? Luther sold them on that gak before they got scattered through space in time. It doesn't matter how many Fallen echo Luther's lies that the Lion "stole his thunder" -- all that matters is that the guys saying this are all Fallen.

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not.

Fallen Angels shows us Luther jealously corrupting the Fallen and treacherously attacking Jonson upon his return to Caliban. Please tell me how this can be twisted into the Lion betraying the Emperor and the DA covering that up for 10,000 years? We KNOW Luther's motives: he used to be Jonson's superior and teacher and now his pupil exceeded him in all respects. He was jealous and the Ruinous Powers could not help but notice.

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not..

just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so.

the fact that 3 different sources, even though fallen, say much the same, does raise some doubt on the dark angels. after all, the fallen have been tortured and interrogated for years so they have no reason to lie

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so

Yeah. This is what I've been trying to tell you, "Chaos Emperor." Because your only argument is "what if" -- which is just making up stuff regardless of anything actually published on the subject.

A lie is not true because three different liars tell you it the same way -- and especially not when they came up with the lie together in the first place. Also, what are you talking about with this idea that the Fallen have no reason to lie? Their lie is the only thing they have left.

 Manchu wrote:

 Chaos Emperor wrote:
just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so

Yeah. This is what I've been trying to tell you, "Chaos Emperor." Because your only argument is "what if" -- which is just making up stuff regardless of anything actually published on the subject.

A lie is not true because three different liars tell you it the same way -- and especially not when they came up with the lie together in the first place. Also, what are you talking about with this idea that the Fallen have no reason to lie? Their lie is the only thing they have left.

Or is it that the DA lie is all that they have left?

 Chaos Emperor wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not..

just because you say it doesnt or isnt doesnt make it so.

the fact that 3 different sources, even though fallen, say much the same, does raise some doubt on the dark angels. after all, the fallen have been tortured and interrogated for years so they have no reason to lie

What you are missing is that the sources were all members of Luther's movement.

Luther was sent back to Caliban, along with a number of veteran members, to raise the next intake of Dark Angels.
Rather than seeing this as an honor and a measure of trust, they saw it as being shunned and as their Primarch abandoning Caliban to the machinations of the nascent Imperium.

I do not see how this "raises some doubt on the Dark Angels". It shows that there was a fundamental issue (the individuals being sent back to Caliban) which led to Luther being able to seize control on Caliban. Especially in light of the events in "Fallen Angels", where Terrans (who I personally theorize were loyal to Erebus and Horus' faction) summoned a monstrosity from the Warp on Caliban. That event led to Luther being able to solidify a large number of the Dark Angels planetside into a Caliban centric movement which then rebelled against both Jonson and the Imperium.

 Manchu wrote:
Three different sources have the Fallen telling the same whiny story. So what? Luther sold them on that gak before they got scattered through space in time. It doesn't matter how many Fallen echo Luther's lies that the Lion "stole his thunder" -- all that matters is that the guys saying this are all Fallen.

treslibras wrote:
But you cannot (rationally) deny that it opens up the door for doubts on the official DA version of the history.

Sure I can.

treslibras wrote:
It is a contested version now.

No, it's not.

Well that kind of proves my point about not being able to seperate between ingame morals, i.e. "everything that loyalist sources in fluff say must be true, and everything non-loyalist sources in fluff say must be a lie".


My dad told me never to argue with fools. So I am out.

Cheers!

That must have been the only thing he ever said to you then. We aren't just dealing with two different second hand accounts. We get to "see" what happens for ourselves. And what we see does not line up with what the Fallen say.

Luther had a genuine grievance with the Lion, seeing as the latter basically banished all of the Calaban-born Marines to baby-sitting duty after one brief campaign*, and then proceeded to ignore their communicaes for the better part of a century despite them achieving unprecedented success rates in Marine recruitment, implantation and training. Then there's their feelings of being betrayed by the Imperium, which in short order turned their lush forest world into a strip mine and all their populace into slaves (and indeed sacrifices to Chaos). On one hand, they are being scorned by their Primarch; on the other, the same Imperium that recruited the Lion has shown itself to be dangerous and corrupt.

Of course, we aso last left Luther studying daemonic lore, which as we all know never ends well. Much like the vague malcontent feelings (why did the Emperor leave us? why are these remembrancers all up in our grills? why are those pansy bookworms on Terra telling real warriors how to propagate war?) of the Legions were fanned into full-blown rebelion by Erebus and friends, I have no problem believing that Luther fell, and fell hard, regardless of his initial good intentions and valid concerns.



*My personal theory on his rationale for this is their exposure to daemons in said campaign. The Lion was quite familiar with Chaos given where he grew up, and perhaps in his paranoid nature assumed that those born on Calaban may be more succeptive to corruption, or indeed already tainted in some way. With that in mind, keeping them quaranteened on Calaban seems like a valid option. The ensuing cold shoulder treatment is probably just the Lion's Asperger's syndrome coming through. I mean, the guy is basically Sheldon from Big Bang Theory x1000.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Secondly, the Imperium did not demand anything from the Dark Angels after the Heresy, because it was the impending arrival of the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves that caused Horus to make his final gambit. It didn't matter how quickly the two Legions were going to arrive, they were always going to be too late.

Don't forget the Ultramarines, who were also en route, and who coordinated the entire counter-offensive during the Heresy, and the Scouring in the aftermath.

 Manchu wrote:

Also, the HH series hasn't gotten to the Siege of Terra yet but I don't see any lame "debates" about Horus changing his mind and tearfully apologizing to daddy.

Quote FTW!!!

The Lion EITHER

1. Put personal desires above the safety and well being of the Imperium; or,
2. Purposefully delayed going to Terra in order to wait and see where his loyalty should lay.

Regardless of which way you want to look at it he was a traitor.

DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

 riverhawks32 wrote:
I always preferred the "Angels of Darkness" take on things. I never liked the Lion, I believed Luther all the way.

Having just read that book, I have to agree. Not all of the Fallen can be considered traitors to the IoM and Emperor, especially when there were conflicting reports on the status of the Lion's loyalty getting back to the DA on Caliban. I personally like the idea that although the Lion may not have fallen to Chaos, that he was being pragmatic about the whole Heresy and really was waiting to see who came out on top before deciding who to side with. In that light, the DA on Caliban could justifiably argue that the Lion was not fully in support of the Emperor and that continuing to follow the Lion was in fact heresy. I see that hesitation, that inaction through waiting to see who the clear victor would be in the Lion as the DA's biggest secret aside from the Fallen themselves. It is such an important secret, not just for the honor/purity/etc. of the DA's themselves, but one that if revealed at the time, or perhaps even now, could lead to a further schism in the IoM or even another HH-like fracturing.

I do not know about the Lion, but i see the DA in 40k as traitors, they find it more important to hunt the fallen, instead of saving/helping the Emperor's servants.

With the HH visions, in Primarchs, the lion is depicted as having his watchers by his side, strong enough to actually physically harm other beings. Thus, his guilt and his doubt were strong enough to manifest even at that point. What guilt and doubt?

Perhaps a dip back to 2nd edition may help.
"luther, using his skills at oratory to lead the dark angels under his command to the path of chaos"

HOWEVER, reading from the same source, we also see that "the forces of chaos had been defeated.....And for Jonson one final, shattering betrayal remained to be discovered".

So, from that we can deduce that the fall of luther and thus the destruction of calibran came after the siege of Terra and the death of horus.

Ironic, perhaps from a chapter that's pride is the first.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Wh....... What?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Doctadeth wrote:
With the HH visions, in Primarchs, the lion is depicted as having his watchers by his side, strong enough to actually physically harm other beings. Thus, his guilt and his doubt were strong enough to manifest even at that point. What guilt and doubt?

Perhaps a dip back to 2nd edition may help.
"luther, using his skills at oratory to lead the dark angels under his command to the path of chaos"

HOWEVER, reading from the same source, we also see that "the forces of chaos had been defeated.....And for Jonson one final, shattering betrayal remained to be discovered".

So, from that we can deduce that the fall of luther and thus the destruction of calibran came after the siege of Terra and the death of horus.

Ironic, perhaps from a chapter that's pride is the first.

are you saying that the watchers are a sort of manifestation of the lions psyche? A sort of physical imaginary friend?

Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

 Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

Source?
Like, please quote it....


Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

clively wrote:The Lion EITHER

1. Put personal desires above the safety and well being of the Imperium; or,
2. Purposefully delayed going to Terra in order to wait and see where his loyalty should lay.

Regardless of which way you want to look at it he was a traitor.

The Horus Heresy short-stories, Savage Weapons and The Lion, as well as AD-B (the author of the former), clarify the Lion as loyal to the Emperor.

DILL3NGER wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Wh...what?

Y........you didnt know? DA's "orientation" is quickly suppressed by DA fans, but it was GW that started it and that makes it canon.

And Luther, who was too old to recieve gene seed and was merely augmented was able to wreck a PRIMARCH. Weak sauce.

Are they Native Americans? Are they knights? Are they green, black, or cookie dough colored? Just a very confused chapter and understandably angry with the Emprah. Lets wish them, and their codex bandwagoneers, a merry millenium.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Said non-astartes human had access to major chaos mojo, on top of being the Lion's surrogate father. But that don't count when we can make childish homo jokes, noooooo

This thread has basically made me love the DA, something I never thought possible.

 1hadhq wrote:

 Doctadeth wrote:
Well the background, both via codex and via the literature is that the watchers are indeed the manifestation of the *dark angels* guilt and angst made physical, and because of course Jonson was very guilty at that point.....

Source?
Like, please quote it....


Or if thats too much to ask, return to the real fluff.
Because its no secret what the watchers are not. IIRC they are not " guilt and angst "....

5th edition DA codex, in Azeraels entry.
And HH primarchs as well hints at it.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
DA are definitely heretics, simply because they were so pissed that the Emprah made their primarch such a weak bitch he could be beat down by a non-Astartes human. And the whole gay gene-seed thing......Astartes dont have animal urges but DA gets stuck in the closet? Big E was obviously trolling them you cant blame them for holding a grudge.

Said non-astartes human had access to major chaos mojo, on top of being the Lion's surrogate father. But that don't count when we can make childish homo jokes, noooooo

It was GW's joke, not mine. Dont shoot the messenger!

I think the DA's deffinetly suffer from some major guilt issues. It is like they are trying to compensate by having so many Chaplains. A beard of chaplains if you will. There is no possible way our loyalty could ever waiver, JUST LOOK AT ALL THESE CHAPLAINS!!!! These Big LOYAL Chaplains, doing LOYAL things and punishing those who may not be LOYAL. I just dont think they are secure in their Loyalty to the Emperor.