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2012/12/16 17:02:33
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Alright well it's clear neither side is backing down at this point.
I'll sum up my feelings in a TL;DR : If I'm going to pay over a 100 fething bucks for a game system's rules, then it better be the most concisely written and well edited rulebook around. If they're wanting us to pay premium price, then it better damn well be premium product.
Everything after this is me explaining for a final time my view on this. After this post I'm out. This thread is going nowhere sadly.
If I'm having to constantly fix or clarify the rules with my group thanks to "houserules", then the designers didn't do their friggin job, pure and simple. If someone sold you a brand new car and told you "yeah, we put an engine in, but we didn't tune it up and half the hoses aren't connected. Remember, we're the best car company in the world!", you would be furious. GW is selling you a car that is half put together, the steering column doesn't have a wheel ("Don't worry, a good set of pliers and you won't even know that wheel is gone!") and all the gauges just spin wildly while you're driving. That should be a reason to be upset more than any other.
You've said for yourself that your group has had to clarify rules within the group to make it playable. I know it's not a problem for you, but you need to realize not everyone is as lucky as you. Not all of us have a tightknit group that we always play with. We have to play strangers who may have a different interpretation than ours, or their group decided the rule was intended another way. What do we do then? Roll off? Because I can guarantee you, nobody wins there. The "winner" feels like a douche for forcing the other person to play his way and the loser feels wronged because he thought the rule should be the other way. There's usually no compromise, and often times that decision could mean the difference between who wins and loses. It leads to a lot of unnecessary frustration and arguments that shouldn't be there to begin with, and can turn a fun game into a nightmare that both players just want to be over. If GW took more time to proof read the rules and make sure they had a tight ruleset, this wouldn't happen. The fact that they had to release FAQ's WITHIN A MONTH of the book coming out to alter entire rules entries (the whole Look out Sir! being completely rewritten for example) is proof of this.
All we want is a game where when I open my book and you open yours, we can both look at a rule and go "ok, that makes sense, we do this." and be back to playing within a minute or two. We're all sick of hunting through paragraphs of needless extra writing that clarifies nothing. We're sick of watching people exploit tiny little loopholes, because yes, you can totally do that according to the rules. We don't want to have to have a meeting with our playerbase to fix all the broken and badly written rules in a book. We just want a game where we can show up, and 9/10 times have a fair and roughly evenly matched game, with minimal rulebook checking and confusion.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2012/12/16 17:18:28
Subject: Re:Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
I didn't spend $100 bucks on 40k's rules. I spent $100 for 48 miniatures and the game system's rules
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2012/12/16 17:24:31
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
If I'm having to constantly fix or clarify the rules with my group thanks to "houserules", then the designers didn't do their friggin job, pure and simple. If someone sold you a brand new car and told you "yeah, we put an engine in, but we didn't tune it up and half the hoses aren't connected. Remember, we're the best car company in the world!", you would be furious. GW is selling you a car that is half put together, the steering column doesn't have a wheel ("Don't worry, a good set of pliers and you won't even know that wheel is gone!") and all the gauges just spin wildly while you're driving. That should be a reason to be upset more than any other.
You do realise that you're legally entitled to a refund right? If you really believe *that* strongly that the ruleset is that bad (despite, as I've said, being better than any of the rules that preceded it), you can ask for your money back.
Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:
jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
2012/12/17 04:49:57
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
If I'm having to constantly fix or clarify the rules with my group thanks to "houserules", then the designers didn't do their friggin job, pure and simple. If someone sold you a brand new car and told you "yeah, we put an engine in, but we didn't tune it up and half the hoses aren't connected. Remember, we're the best car company in the world!", you would be furious. GW is selling you a car that is half put together, the steering column doesn't have a wheel ("Don't worry, a good set of pliers and you won't even know that wheel is gone!") and all the gauges just spin wildly while you're driving. That should be a reason to be upset more than any other.
You do realise that you're legally entitled to a refund right? If you really believe *that* strongly that the ruleset is that bad (despite, as I've said, being better than any of the rules that preceded it), you can ask for your money back.
if only. My store doesnt accept refunds because I didnt like it.
And I stil like the game a bit, it just infuriates me to see just how good the game could be if they just put more efort into it. Occasionally I have an awesome game, but they're outnumbered by the ones that fel like a chore.
And to be honest, part of that post is just because I needed a good rant to get out of my system. I'm feeling better now.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2012/12/17 05:31:32
Subject: Re:Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
A balanced, well written ruleset and codieces would benefit everyone, I'd say so called casual players even more than tourney ones as more units would become viable and there would be less extreme builds so fielding what you like even if it's a gunline of Pyrovores would not mean sth close to auto loosing. GW fails on rules front and it has nothing to do with their target etc but a lot to do with lack of quality managment, kind of bad for a supposed premium brand. Their game still has its sparks of brilliance but it's natural to expect much more after 6th editions and at those luxury prices.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
2012/12/17 06:00:54
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
TheCaptain wrote: I find it hard to believe they didn't try to balance the rules.
GW has admitted that they don't playtest (at least not in the ways that actually catch problems) so no, they don't try very hard to balance the rules. Just speculating about what "should" be balanced isn't enough.
Mr Morden wrote: Not where we game - its all about who can spend the most omoney on the I win you loose cards -
Try getting better at the game? Many of the strongest cards are commons and uncommons, and unless you're playing in competitive tournaments you can be very successful with a cheap deck (and certainly a much cheaper deck than any 40k army). The only problem is that new or less-skilled players focus on "bomb" rares that are actually terrible in competitive play.
I quite playing after the fiasco with the afinity / artefact lands that was broken from turn 1 of any game they were in - yeah that was playtested and balanced.
Of course it wasn't balanced, but things like that are going to happen occasionally when you have a really complex game. Even a thorough playtesting system like WOTC uses can't catch everything absolutely 100% of the time. The question though, is what do you do once you make the mistake.
If you're WOTC you ban the problem cards after seeing indisputable evidence that they were a mistake.
If you're GW you ignore the problem entirely and hope that your target audience won't exploit it too badly.
See a problem here yet?
That and the obvious continuing powercreep.............
You mean the obvious downward trend in power levels? Seriously, play a deck using old cards against a deck using modern cards. You'll be lucky if your modern deck gets more than a single turn.
That and the ultra complicated stacking system
Err, what?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/12/17 06:02:23
Subject: Re:Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Balanced rules/Codices means more viable units....which means proportionately more variety, hence more fun for the average user and a much broader set of tactics and list builds to play with.
Concise and clear rules means less rule disputes/learning time, and more time spent playing.
Sounds like if you want fun, the way to do it is to write a concise, clear rulebook with balanced codices.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2012/12/17 07:41:24
Subject: Re:Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
TheCaptain wrote: I find it hard to believe they didn't try to balance the rules.
GW has admitted that they don't playtest (at least not in the ways that actually catch problems) so no, they don't try very hard to balance the rules. Just speculating about what "should" be balanced isn't enough.
Mr Morden wrote: Not where we game - its all about who can spend the most omoney on the I win you loose cards -
Try getting better at the game? Many of the strongest cards are commons and uncommons, and unless you're playing in competitive tournaments you can be very successful with a cheap deck (and certainly a much cheaper deck than any 40k army). The only problem is that new or less-skilled players focus on "bomb" rares that are actually terrible in competitive play.
I quite playing after the fiasco with the afinity / artefact lands that was broken from turn 1 of any game they were in - yeah that was playtested and balanced.
Of course it wasn't balanced, but things like that are going to happen occasionally when you have a really complex game. Even a thorough playtesting system like WOTC uses can't catch everything absolutely 100% of the time. The question though, is what do you do once you make the mistake.
If you're WOTC you ban the problem cards after seeing indisputable evidence that they were a mistake.
If you're GW you ignore the problem entirely and hope that your target audience won't exploit it too badly.
See a problem here yet?
That and the obvious continuing powercreep.............
You mean the obvious downward trend in power levels? Seriously, play a deck using old cards against a deck using modern cards. You'll be lucky if your modern deck gets more than a single turn.
That and the ultra complicated stacking system
Err, what?
Well we have totally different views on MTG thats clear same as 40K.
Afinity should never have been released in any game that had undergone any form of playtesting - to say they sorted it out is laughable - it was obviously broken from the very first game we played - but no it was allowed to carry on for ages......... be a bit like GW putting out a Codex where tanks were cheaper than infantry and if you had two tanks you get a third free and then being suprised there were any issues......... Oh and yeah WOTC banned cards - after people had spent a fortune on them to make winning decks. Of course that works well for WOTC as people then have to buy all new power cards...........strange how that works.
GW does often try to fix problems with FAQs - like all games - check out all the various tabletop games and find the errata and FAQs - they ALL have them. Now GW does not always get it right on indeed in a timely manner...............
Downward power sprials, what nonsense - you are seriously contending that my cards - Legends, Antiquities, Ice Age and Revised are in any way a match for the massively powerful new abilities and costings or cards - not according to all the people who still play it here. And all the shiny rares are rubbish - yeah right.............thats must be why all the rares are sold at 10p each - oh wait no.......... I tried playing the older cards back in the day - new ones are just on the whole better....
The stacking system - or how magic works in terms of what trumps what - I personally find it annoying, complicated and off putting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 11:00:13
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I have a question for you all. No matter how "bad" the ruleset is and how "evil" GW is for making money, you all (or most of you) still play the game, yes?
Oh, and the rulebook isn't $100 for rules, it's $75 for a giant hardback, full color book where only a small portion is rules. I personally quite like my background fluff and pretty pictures.
2012/12/17 12:01:44
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Asking GW to have a "perfectly balanced" rule system is silly.
A) "Perfectly balanced" is subjective. Take the flying bakery or guard aircav for example. You can say it's balanced because it's countered by things like the ADL (aka skyfire) but the Tyranids would like to have a word with you, and I don't think the Tau are too happy either. You can say they aren't very good at holding objectives (maybe aircav is, I've never seen it), but there isn't ALWAYS objectives. Who's right about whether it's balanced or not? The guy with the flyers, or the guy without? (That's rhetorical before someone jumps down my throat about how to beat flyers or how OP flyers are.)
B) It's too big. There's simply too many rules from too many editions, and it's insane to think that GW will simply declare everything from an older edition/codex obsolete whenever a new one comes out. FAQ the points costs and rules you say? You're basically asking them rewrite everything but the fluff because if you change unit X, suddenly unit Y is better/worse. Change unit Y and its all fixed right? No wait, unit Z is really bad/good now so we better change it too! Repeat ad infinitum. Units XYZ don't even have to be in the same codex by the way, since we're talking overall game balance not just internal codex.
C) Noone seems to think "GW is a model company not a rules company" is a good argument, I call them silly. GW does what they think makes them the most money. This means selling models. This turns out to be releasing a book (which means new models) every once in awhile so people can keep going OOH SHINY. This results in lots of codicies written for different rules. See point B. They could release every codex in one giant wave with new editions, but the gap in between editions would be massive, resulting in more people leaving from lack of new content and less people coming in because they see something new. That means less money, which means unhappy shareholders, which means GW isn't going to go down that road.
TL;DR A balanced ruleset for 40K is a pipedream. If you want to pick and choose rules go DM a D&D campaign, but don't come crying to me when you realize its hard as hell.
DarkCorsair wrote: I have a question for you all. No matter how "bad" the ruleset is and how "evil" GW is for making money, you all (or most of you) still play the game, yes?
Well, I end up playing rigeld2hammer, but yes. Because instead of being able to use the rules as they're printed, I have to make up house rules left and right.
Oh, and the rulebook isn't $100 for rules, it's $75 for a giant hardback, full color book where only a small portion is rules. I personally quite like my background fluff and pretty pictures.
It's ~25-30% rules. That's not really a "small portion".
And look - another post trying to equate well written rules with balance! There's a difference. Balance discussions are for another thread.
And MrMorden - your understanding of M:TG is flawed. There are a handful of solid to powerful dares, but there's at least 2:1 ratio of cheap/not good rates to good ones. And there are many cards in the Legends/Ice Age/Revised era that are extremely good (and therefore valuable). The dual lands from Revised are better than any other dual lands since then.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2012/12/17 12:43:43
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Guys lets face it. GW has a target market. They are doing well financially off of that target market.
They aren't going to change how the game they write is written just because of internet complaining and insults. They MAY consider changing if their sales plummet and they need to change to survive as a company. And even then....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 13:39:11
washout77 wrote: Guys lets face it. GW has a target market. They are doing well off from that target market.
They aren't going to change how the game they write is written just because of internet complaining and insults. They MAY consider changing if their sales plummet and they need to change to survive as a company. And even then....
A) "Perfectly balanced" is subjective. Take the flying bakery or guard aircav for example. You can say it's balanced because it's countered by things like the ADL (aka skyfire) but the Tyranids would like to have a word with you, and I don't think the Tau are too happy either. You can say they aren't very good at holding objectives (maybe aircav is, I've never seen it), but there isn't ALWAYS objectives. Who's right about whether it's balanced or not? The guy with the flyers, or the guy without? (That's rhetorical before someone jumps down my throat about how to beat flyers or how OP flyers are.)
"balanced" generally means i'm not being punished because i picked a certain faction/build. the fact that each edition favours certain builds at the expense of others shows that there isnt balance. third ed boiled down to either rhino rush, or shoot the rhino rush. fourth was 6man las/plas and skimmerspam. fifth favoured mechhammer to the exclusion of all else, and sixth is all about flyers. Its GWs policy to push certain styles of play in each edition, which is fine to an extent,but it comes at the expense of balance.
B) It's too big. There's simply too many rules from too many editions, and it's insane to think that GW will simply declare everything from an older edition/codex obsolete whenever a new one comes out. FAQ the points costs and rules you say? You're basically asking them rewrite everything but the fluff because if you change unit X, suddenly unit Y is better/worse. Change unit Y and its all fixed right? No wait, unit Z is really bad/good now so we better change it too! Repeat ad infinitum. Units XYZ don't even have to be in the same codex by the way, since we're talking overall game balance not just internal codex.
.
And yet Privateer Press managed to pull this off and produced 2 entirely new Rules sets, and updated 11 factions within the space of a year to be in line with their entirely new rules set (warmachine/hordes Mk2), including a new points system, which had about 6 pages of FAQs between the lot, and to top this off, they managed to pull off an almost perfect game in terms of balance. and on top of this, they were designing their own proprietry roleplaying system on top of this (the iron kingdoms RPG) , as well as producing other games separate to their Warmachine/Hordes/Iron Kingdoms setting like Level 7. and they did all this with a staff count that is a lot smaller than GWs.
C) Noone seems to think "GW is a model company not a rules company" is a good argument, I call them silly. GW does what they think makes them the most money. This means selling models. This turns out to be releasing a book (which means new models) every once in awhile so people can keep going OOH SHINY. This results in lots of codicies written for different rules. See point B. They could release every codex in one giant wave with new editions, but the gap in between editions would be massive, resulting in more people leaving from lack of new content and less people coming in because they see something new. That means less money, which means unhappy shareholders, which means GW isn't going to go down that road.
.
oh really? Privateer Press released 2 rules books, as well as 11 faction books in the space of a year, updated the entire game, required very little in the way of FAQs, and still maintained an excellent level of balance. bear in mind, this is a game which already has hundreds of warlocks, warcasters, warbeasts, warjacks, infantry units and solos, all with their own unique stats and abilities.
the idea that its harder for GW to balance their game is a bit of a joke, when you think about it. besides, about half of the GW factions are variations on a central theme, which is "marines with different bling". privateer press have 2 entirely different rules sets, and 11 entirely different factions (and 2 of those - mercs and minions, can be broken down into 6 sub factions on top of this)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/17 15:03:04
2012/12/17 20:02:16
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
TrickyTaquito wrote: Asking GW to have a "perfectly balanced" rule system is silly.
A) "Perfectly balanced" is subjective. Take the flying bakery or guard aircav for example. You can say it's balanced because it's countered by things like the ADL (aka skyfire) but the Tyranids would like to have a word with you, and I don't think the Tau are too happy either. You can say they aren't very good at holding objectives (maybe aircav is, I've never seen it), but there isn't ALWAYS objectives. Who's right about whether it's balanced or not? The guy with the flyers, or the guy without? (That's rhetorical before someone jumps down my throat about how to beat flyers or how OP flyers are.)
B) It's too big. There's simply too many rules from too many editions, and it's insane to think that GW will simply declare everything from an older edition/codex obsolete whenever a new one comes out. FAQ the points costs and rules you say? You're basically asking them rewrite everything but the fluff because if you change unit X, suddenly unit Y is better/worse. Change unit Y and its all fixed right? No wait, unit Z is really bad/good now so we better change it too! Repeat ad infinitum. Units XYZ don't even have to be in the same codex by the way, since we're talking overall game balance not just internal codex.
TL;DR A balanced ruleset for 40K is a pipedream. If you want to pick and choose rules go DM a D&D campaign, but don't come crying to me when you realize its hard as hell.
Videogame developers routinely create entire new game systems or add new factions to games via expansion packs while continuing to balance them post-release with internet-distributed patches.
And they do a far better job than Games Workshop does. While game developers are going through and finding bugs through millions of lines of code and periodically writing new game engines, Games Workshop has warrant to justify not releasing a paragraph-long update to a FAQ?
Hell, even videogame modders have a better track record for balancing games, and I would suspect the same thing is true for people who make alternative game systems or implement "house rules" for various systems. I'd be willing to bet that there are users on this forum who could create a composite list of suggested improvements to Codexes/ruleset that would considerably improve this game.
Just do give you an idea of what actual, community-driven balance changes can accomplish, here's an example of a changelog for a Dawn of War 2 modification:
Main menu backdrop, character, logo and music changed
Army Painter unit lists expanded
Unit decorators widely updated (misleading icons changed and others tweaked)
Gameplay
Infantry pathfiding values tweaked
HQ aura now grants 50% damage resistance to allied infantry
Fall Back now removes Distort Field effects
Fall Back now removes Assail effects
Fall Back now increases melee skill by 50
Grenades generally do 90% damage to retreating units (instead of 100%)
Barrage_pvp damage against infantry_fire_resist decreased from 1 to 0.3
Inferno_pvp damage against buildings increased from 0.1 to 0.2 and against light/defence/ig_turret increased from 0.2 to 0.4
Manticore_rocket damage against building_light decreased from 1 to 0.5
New maps
(2p) Bay of Grots
(2p) Calderis River
(2p) Catachan Fortress
(2p) Catachan Lowlands
(2p) Fedrid Folly
(2p) High Risks
(2p) Mirage
(2p) Plaza Primarus
(2p) Sector 95
(2p) Small White Walls
(2p) Tallarn Ravine
(2p) Wrazgot’s Leadfoot
(4p) Biffy’s Peril Redux
(4p) Gorkamorka Boondox
(4p) Maiden Forums
(4p) Nids Never Sleep
(4p) Rokk of Waaagh!
(4p) Valhalla
(6p) Armageddon River Crossing
(6p) Fall of Hyades
(6p) Kasyr Lutien
(6p) Return to Golgotha
(6p) Skull Masha Brackens
(6p) Soprony Brood Lairs
(6p) Swamps of Slaughter
(FFA) Rokk of Waaagh!
(FFA) Skull Masha Brackens
Drop Pod now spawns an uncrushable drop pod with 500 health that functions as a reinforcement beacon for non-Terminator Space Marine infantry (drop pods from other call-ins remain crushable but do not grant any Global on death)
For the Emperor! now buffs both ranged and melee damage by 25% but grants no damage resistance
Larraman’s Blessing now revives heroes at their HQ instead of where they fell
Larraman’s Blessing cost decreased from 175 to 125 Zeal
Angels of Death no longer grants invulnerability
Angels of Death now grants 50% damage resistance and full knockback immunity
Angels of Death duration increased from 8 to 15 seconds
Angels of Death cost decreased from 250 to 200 Zeal
Blessing of the Omnissiah duration increased from 20 to 30 seconds
Blessing of the Omnissiah cooldown decreased from 150 to 100 seconds
Blessing of the Omnissiah heal effect increased from 10 to 15
Orbital Bombardment damage type changed from melee_heavy and piercing_pvp to explosive_pvp
Orbital Bombardment targeting radius increased from 15 to 35
Force Commander
New unlocks: rare armor (0), Glory of Matiel (0), common backpack (0), veteran helmet (0), cape (0), epic armor (16), golden backpack (16), Mail of Immortals (16), captain helmet (16), Holy Mantle of Elizur (23), Favored of Bardiel (33), commander armor (46), eagle’s head backpack (46), loincloth (50), Gabriel’s armor (60), golden helmet (60)
New unlocks for Terminator Armor: table-top helmet (0), Crusade Eternal (16), Armor of Azariah (36), commander helmet (46), iron halo (56)
Removed Force Commander Terminator upkeep (3.36 to 0)
Chainsword and Storm Shield no longer grants a health bonus
Chainsword and Storm Shield now increases melee damage by 13.73%
Defend radius increased from 20 to 22
Power Fist special attack no longer does friendly fire
Power Fist cost increased from 150/50 to 200/50
Thunder Hammer has no splash damage
Thunder Hammer special attack damage increased from 20 to 40
Thunder Hammer cost increased from 150/30 to 150/50
Artificer Armor now increases melee skill by 5
Artificer Armor cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25
Armor of Alacrity cost decreased from 120/30 to 110/20
Sprint cooldown increased from 20 to 30 seconds
Iron Halo cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25
Teleport (Teleport Pack) cooldown decreased from 45 to 30 seconds
Teleport (Teleport Pack) range increased from 45 to 55
Terminator Armor cost increased from 150/75 to 200/100
Assault Cannon cost increased from 70/40 to 70/70
Heavy Flamer cost increased from 70/40 to 70/70
Lightning Claws cost increased from 70/40 to 70/70
Apothecary
New unlocks: Armature of Zeal (12), Armor of Victory (24), Immovable (24), improved power armor (45), Golden Mantle (45), Gift of Mars (45), loincloth (55), Laurels of Hadrian (58)
Health increased from 550 to 625
Heal cooldown increased from 25 to 30 seconds
Sanguine Chainsword passive health regeneration removed
Sanguine Chainsword on-hit heal effect increased from 20 to 25
Sanguine Chainsword now equips a bolt pistol that heals for 10 health on hit
Sanguine Chainsword now increases melee charge range from 12 to 23
Full Auto range increased from 30 to 40 (for targeting purposes) and 38 (for the accessory weapon) and targeting conditions tweaked
Full Auto tweaked to not chain-knockback as rapidly anymore
Armor of Purity now increases health regeneration by 0.1
Combat Stimulant Equipment health bonus increased from 100 to 125
Combat Stimulants damage bonus increased from 25% to 40%
Armor of the Apothecarion cost increased from 150/50 to 200/60
Purification Rites cost increased from 100/20 to 120/25
Purification Vials cooldown decreased from 40 to 30 seconds
Purification Vials energy cost decreased from 45 to 35
Purification Vials range increased from 20 to 24
Purification Vials cost decreased from 100/30 to 100/25
Improved Medical Equipment energy regeneration bonus increased from 0.1 to 0.15; also fixed a bug (equipping wargear granted 0.1 but unequipping removed 0.15, leaving a permanent energy regeneration penalty)
Techmarine
New unlocks: Armor of Crusader (14), golden shoulder pad trim (24), Armor of Purity (37), Mail of Zeal (37), Abjuration of Fear (48), Mars pattern helmet (59)
Master-Crafted Bolter cost increased from 100/25 to 100/30
Brothers in Arms radius increased from 10 to 30
Consecrated Bolter damage increased from 60 to 65
Consecrated Bolter replaced with Axe of the Mechanicum (T2)
Overcharge Plasma after-effect duration increased from 6 to 8 seconds, ability fx changed and after-effect fx added
Plasma Gun cost increased from 100/25 to 120/35
Meltagun damage increased from 90 to 100
Meltagun moving accuracy increased from 50% to 100%
Artificer Armor health regeneration bonus decreased from 0.35 to 0.3
Bionics now increases health regeneration by 0.25
Bionics now increases melee damage by 15%
Refractor Field moved from T1 to T2
Refractor Field cost decreased from 125/25 to 110/20
Scout Squad
XP value decreased from 130 to 100
Sergeant XP value decreased from 150 to 120
Global value increased from 7 to 9
Melee skill decreased from 71 to 60
Shotguns now increase melee skill by 11
Explosive Shot damage increased from 1 to 8
Explosive Shot damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 1 to 0
Frag Grenade damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 5 to 4.5
Sniper Rifle cost decreased from 110/35 to 100/35
Advanced Infiltration Training reworked into Elite Training, which grants Infiltrate and increases health regeneration by 0.25 and energy regeneration by 0.15 when out of combat
Tactical Squad
XP value increased from 200 to 230
Sergeant XP value increased from 250 to 280
Global value increased from 15 to 18
Health increased from 330 to 350
Kraken Bolts cooldown decreased from 50 to 40 seconds
Missile Launcher build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Can now upgrade one squad to Sternguard Veterans
Devastator Squad
Global value increased from 9 to 12
Vengeance Rounds cooldown decreased from 45 to 30 seconds
Vengeance Rounds cost adjusted from 50/10 to 75/0
Vengeance Rounds build time decreased from 30 to 10 seconds
Vengeance Rounds damage buff increased from 50% to 75%
Assault Squad
Cost decreased from 500/50 to 450/50
XP value increased from 210 to 240
Sergeant XP value increased from 250 to 280
Global value increased from 17 to 19
Blind Grenades now reduce weapon range by 75% for 20 seconds (10 seconds after the stun effect ends)
Thunder and Lightning cost decreased from 50/30 to 50/25 and build time from 30 to 20 seconds
Devastator Plasma Cannon Squad
Reinforcement time cost decreased from 75% to 60%
Plasma projectile ignore walkable surfaces set to false
Dreadnought
Build time decreased from 50 to 42 seconds
Rotation rate increased from 200 to 225
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Upgrading with a ranged weapon no longer removes inspiration on melee kill
Assault Cannon damage increased from 90 to 100
Assault Cannon Barrage range increased from 33 to 40
Assault Cannon cost decreased from 100/40 to 100/30
Multi-melta cooldown decreased from 5 to 3.5
Multi-melta cost increased from 80/20 to 100/30
Librarian
New model
Build time increased from 25 to 35 seconds
Smite damage decreased from 25 to 18
Smite cooldown increased from 30 to 45 seconds
Veil of Time speed bonus decreased from 3 to 2
Veil of Time duration decreased from 30 to 20 seconds
Tome of Time cost decreased from 75/25 to 75/20
Force Staff cost increased from 75/30 to 90/30
Predator
Extra Armor cost decreased from 135/40 to 100/30
Extra Armor build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Lascannon splash pattern changed (the pattern was configured for 3 radius even though splash was decreased to 1)
Lascannon cost decreased from 185/35 to 135/35
Lascannon build time decreased from 30 to 20 seconds
Terminator Squad
New helmet
Assault Cannon cost increased from 100/60 to 100/80
Cleansing Flame weapon family changed from flamer_pvp to combi_flamer_ability_pvp (damage type from flame_pvp to flame_aoe_ability_pvp)
Cyclone Missile Barrage damage increased from 50 to 62.5
Cyclone Missile Barrage number of missiles increased from 12 to 14
Cyclone Missile Barrage starting delay increased from 1 to 1.5 seconds
Cyclone Missile Barrage cooldown decreased from 60 to 40 seconds
Venerable Dreadnought
Charge no longer knocks back retreating units
Land Raider Redeemer
Health decreased from 3000 to 2500
Healing aura effect increased from 0.5% to 1%
Heavy Bolter Turret
Missile Launcher Turret cost decreased from 80/40 to 75/0
Missile Launcher Turret build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Missile Launcher Turret range increased from 44 to 50
Missile Launcher Turret reload duration decreased from 6 to 4
Teleport Relay Beacon
Health decreased from 1000 to 750
Cost decreased from 200/30 to 200/20
Population cost decreased from 5 to 3
Healing aura now also grants 15% damage mitigation
Orks
New units
Painboy
Flash Gitz
General changes
HQ Waaagh! generation increased from 0.25 to 0.3 per second
Use Yer Choppas! cost decreased from 100 to 75 Waaagh!
Use Yer Choppas! cooldown increased from 50 to 120 seconds
Use Yer Choppas! damage bonus decreased from 40% to 35%
‘Ard Boyz now grants 25% resistance to all damage instead of 50% to melee damage
More Dakka cost increased from 50 to 75 Waaagh!
More Dakka now gives a 10% change of causing weapon knockback on each hit
Kommandos Iz Da Sneakiest moved from T2 to T3
Call da Boyz! reinforcement duration decreased from 20 to 5 seconds (buffs still last 20 seconds)
Roks damage values changed from 475 to 300, from 400 to 250, from 150 to 175, from 51 to 80 and from 50 to 60 according to size
Warboss
Bang Bang Hammer weapon family changed from power_melee_pvp to melee_pvp
Bang Bang Hammer special attack 02 knockback type changed from ability to weapon
Bang Bang Hammer buff radius increased from 20 to 28
Kustom Shoota damage increased from 40 to 42
Kustom Shoota cost decreased from 120/25 to 120/20
Shoot ‘em Good targeting range increased from 30 to 40 and weapon range from 30 to 38
Big Stomp energy cost decreased from 40 to 0
Spiky Armor cost increased from 120/20 to 130/25
Spiky Armor health bonus increased from 200 to 250
Spiky Armor health regeneration removed
Spiky Armor damage to attackers decreased from 8 to 6
Angry Bits build time increased from 10 to 15 seconds
Now I’m Angry increases health regeneration by 0.75 for 15 seconds again
Boss Pole build time increased from 10 to 15 seconds
Trophy Rack build time increased from 10 to 15 seconds
Mekboy
Deff Gun courage damage increased from 300 to 400
‘Ave A Taste cooldown increased from 45 to 60 seconds
‘Ave A Taste can be targeted on vehicles
‘Ave A Taste heal decreased from 400 to 150
Mega-Rumblah radius decreased from 25 to 20
Mega-Rumblah knockback type changed from ability to weapon
Mega-Rumblah now increases maximum health by 100
Mega-Rumblah cost decreased from 200/60 to 150/50
Proximity Mines initial delay decreased from 20 to 3 seconds
Proximity Mines cooldown decreased from 50 to 30 seconds
Force Field Overcharge knocback type changed from weapon to ability
Force Field Overcharge ranged damage protection increased from 50% to 70%
Turrets built by the Mekboy can now be salvaged for 100/15
Kommando Nob
Health increased from 630 to 670
Default melee damage decreased from 30 to 20
High Explosive Shells damage decreased from 130 to 115
Assashun’s Knife cost decreased from 120/30 to 100/20
Stikkbombz damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 5 to 4.5
Booby Traps cost increased from 100/20 to 120/20
Kaboom! energy cost increased from 30 to 75
Kaboom! no longer damages the Kommando Nob
Boom Time! now stops Kaboom! from knocking back the Kommando Nob
Boom Time! now increases maximum energy by 100
Boom Time! now increases energy regeneration by 0.1
Boom Time! now decreases Plant Booby Trap cooldown by 50%
Boom Time! now makes Stikkbombz do an extra 18 damage
Boom Time! now increases Stunbomb radius from 7 to 15
Boom Time! no longer causes an explosion on Fall Back
Boom Time! cost decreased from 110/25 to 100/20
Improved Camouflage now increases maximum energy by 50
Improved Camouflage now increases energy regeneration by 0.1
Improved Camouflage cost increased from 95/20 to 100/30
Slugga Boyz
Burnas health bonus increased from 10% to 15%
Burnas now grant the Burn Dat House! ability
Can now build Waaagh! Banners
Slugga Nob health increased from 285 to 350
Slugga Nob health bonus increased from 10% to 20%
Slugga Nob no longer grants a speed bonus
Slugga Nob cost decreased from 100/25 to 75/25
Swamp ‘Em cost decreased from 18 to 15 Waaagh!
Swamp ‘Em duration decreased from 10 to 8 seconds
Swamp ‘Em cooldown decreased from 120 to 80 seconds
Swamp ‘Em no longer breaks or protects from suppression
Swamp ‘Em now increases speed by 1 for the duration
Shoota Boyz
Big Shoota damage decreased from 33 to 29
Nob Leader melee damage increased from 8 to 20
Nob Leader no longer has melee charge
Nob Leader now grants a 15% ranged damage bonus to the squad after the Tier 2 upgrade is finished
Lootas
Build time decreased from 11 to 9 (33 to 27) seconds
Deff gun damage increased from 300 to 390
Deff gun rate of fire increased from 10 to 13
Deff gun medium range damage multiplier increased from 1 to 1.4
Deff gun reload frequency increased from 6-8 to 10-12
Stormboyz
Cost decreased from 400/40 to 400/35
Improved Rokkit Packs cost adjusted from 50/20 to 75/0
Stormboy Nob health increased from 285 to 350
Stormboy Nob weapon family changed from power_melee_pvp to melee_heavy
Stormboy Nob Bommaboyz explosion knocback type changed from ability to weapon
Stikkbommaz
Health increased from 150 to 200
Melee skill increased from 70 to 80
Upkeep increased from 5.1 to 10.2
Stikkbomb damage decreased from 67 to 58
Stunbomb vehicle snare effect increased from 2.5 to 3 seconds
Melee damage increased from 17 to 21
Special attack damage increased from 21 to 25
Tankbustas
Rokkit damage increased from 14 to 16
Rokkit Barrage damage decreased from 40 to 30
Rokkit Barrage number of shots increased from 3 to 4
Wartrukk
Cost increased from 180/20 to 220/30
Deff Dread
XP value increased from 250 to 300
Global value increased from 24 to 35
Build time increased from 25 to 35 seconds
Rotation rate increased from 200 to 225
Melee damage increased from 120 to 140
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Burnaz ‘n Bitz cost decreased from 160/20 to 140/20
Rampage cost decreased from 35 to 25 Waaagh!
Weirdboy
XP value increased from 45 to 250
Upkeep increased from 12.75 to 25.5
Energy gain from the Waaagh!!! ability increased from 100 to 130
Ranged attack projectile now ignores terrain
Warp Vomit no longer lowers the sight radius of targets
Warp Vomit minimum range increased from 10 to 15
Warpath energy cost decreased from 40 to 30
Kommando Squad
Health increased from 225 to 250
Speed increased from 5 to 5.5
Nob Leader speed increased from 5 to 5.5
Shoota damage increased from 29 to 30
Shoota range increased from 25 to 38
Melee damage increased from 8 to 16
Nob Leader melee damage increased from 8 to 20
Nob Leader’s rokkit launcha minimum range increased from 0 to 10
Smoke Bomb range increased from 20 to 25
Burna Bomb damage decreased from 20 to 15
Luv da Dakka duration decreased from 7.5 to 3.5 seconds
Luv da Dakka number of shots decreased from 75 to 35
Luv da Dakka targeting range increased from 30 to 35 and weapon range from 30 to 45
Nob Squad
Frenzy cost increased from 45 to 75 Waaagh!
Frenzy damage bonus decreased from 30% to 20%
Frenzy duration reduced from 10 to 7 seconds
Frenzy cooldown increased from 45 to 60 seconds
‘Uge Hammers cost decreased from 100/60 to 100/50
Nob Leader cost decreased from 150/35 to 100/25
Population cost decreased from 6 to 5
Nob Leader population cost decreased from 6 to 5
Looted Tank
Boomgun projectile collision type changed from homing to plasma
Boomgun disable_combat set to false
Battlewagon
New ability: Rollin’ Thunda – targeted charge that damages and knocks back units and stuns any vehicles it hits
Holding one unit is sufficient to activate all weapons and increase speed by 50%
Main cannon damage decreased from 170 to 130
Main cannon horizontal turning speed increased from 40 to 80
Mega Boombshot projectile now ignores terrain
Waaagh! Banner
Can now be constructed by Slugga Boyz
Cost decreased from 75/10 to 75/5
Frazzle ability removed
Population cost decreased from 5 to 0
Limited to 4 per player
Ork Turret
Turrets built by the Mekboy can now be salvaged for 100/15
Shoota courage damage decreased from 400 to 300
Eldar
New units
Dark Reaper Squad
Fire Dragon Squad
General changes
Webway Gate cost decreased from 75 to 50 Psychic Might
Webway Gate sight radius increased from 5 to 25
Distort Field effect is now exclusive and removed on retreat
Crack Shot duration increased from 20 to 25 seconds
Farsight duration increased from 20 to 60 seconds
Eldritch Storm delay decreased by 1 second
Eldritch Storm vehicle stun increased from 10 to 14 seconds
Eldritch Storm bolt damage & knockback radius increased from 5 to 6
Seer Council is now available from the HQ for all heroes
Summon Seer Council cost decreased from 600/0/300 to 500/0/300
Warlock
Can now leap into melee combat
Melee charge cooldown increased from 6 to 10 seconds
Immolator cost increased from 100/25 to 100/30
Merciless Witchblade special attack damage decreased from 60 to 50
Merciless Witchblade special attack no longer affects friendly units
Merciless Witchblade ranged attack cannot chain-knockback as quickly anymore
Witchblade of Kurnous damage increased from 69 to 73
Champion’s Robe now increases health regeneration by 0.1
Psychic Shield now grants immunity to weapon knockback
Cloak of Shadows health bonus increased from 100 to 150
Cloak of Shadows now increases maximum energy by 20
Cloaking Shroud changed from toggled to activated (ability costs 50 energy and lasts for 15 seconds)
Channeling heal effect increased from 10 to 15 per second
Channeling now also increases the target unit’s damage by 15%
Heart of Darkness energy recharge decreased from 80 to 65
Heart of Darkness break points (damage to charge ability) increased from 250 to 300
Warp Spider Exarch
Teleport cooldown increased from 7 to 10 seconds
Heavy Gauge Deathspinner default ranged attack damage increased from 40 to 56
Powerblades cost decreased from 130/45 to 130/30
Powerblades special attack no longer hits allies
Enhanced Warp Jump Generator maximum energy bonus removed
Enhanced Warp Jump Generator now increases energy regeneration by 0.25
Improved Warp Generator health bonus increased from 125 to 200
Phase Shift no longer makes the WSE invulnerable
Phase Shift now makes the WSE take 10% increased damage
Improved Targeters cost decreased from 130/35 to 100/30
Farseer
Guide can be used on vehicles again
Armor of Fortune health regeneration bonus decreased from 0.35 to 0.3
Rune Armor energy regeneration bonus decreased from 0.2 to 0.1
Rune Armor now grants the Psychic Storm ability
Rune Armor moved from T1 to T2
Rune Armor cost increased from 110/30 to 150/30
Time Field speed debuff decreased from 50% to 40%
Armor of Asuryan cost decreased from 200/60 to 150/50
Runes of Reaping energy drain removed
Runes of Reaping no longer increase maximum energy
Runes of Reaping now increase energy regeneration by 0.1
Runes of Reaping now decrease the cooldowns of Fleet of Foot, Guide, Doom, Levitation Field, Fortune, Psychic Storm and Time Field by 25%
Runes of Reaping cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25
Guardian Squad
Squad changed into Dire Avenger Squad (visual change)
Warlock changed into Dire Avenger Exarch (visual change)
Warlock (Exarch) upkeep increased from 3 to 4.15
Cost decreased from 300/0 to 270/0
Battle Equipment renamed to Aspect of Avenger
Battle Equipment (Aspect of Avenger) cost increased from 65/15 to 70/15
Battle Equipment (Aspect of Avenger) now increases damage by 10%
Energy Shield health decreased from 1000 to 750
Energy Shield regeneration decreased from 5 to 2.5
Plasma Grenade damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 5 to 4.5
Howling Banshees
XP value decreased from 100 to 90
Cost decreased from 400/0 to 370/0
Aspect of Banshee cost decreased from 100/25 to 85/20
Rangers
Global value increased from 10 to 13
Build time increased from 21 to 32 seconds
Long rifle range decreased from 65 to 55
Pathfinder Gear now increases weapon range by 10
Kinetic Pulse now also does 15 piercing damage in the 5 radius
Infiltrate energy drain decreased from 1.5 to 1 per second
Shuriken Cannon Weapon Team
Renamed into Guardian Weapon Team
XP value increased from 60 to 90
Can now be upgraded with a brightlance cannon (T2)
Brightlance upgrade grants the Beam Scorch ability
Brightlance Weapon Team
Unit removed and reworked into an upgrade for Shuriken Cannon Weapon Team
As a result, health is decreased from 275 to 225
Warp Spider Squad
Upkeep decreased from 10.2 to 9.56 (Exarch as well)
Deathspinner damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 1 to 0.5
Exarch dual deathspinner damage increased from 35 to 37
Exarch dual deathspinner damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 1 to 0.5
Falcon
Cost increased from 375/95 to 400/95
Acceleration and deceleration increased from 7 to 8
Rotation rate increased from 100 to 200
Speed increased from 6 to 7.5
Energy Field now permanently decreases speed by 1
Wraithlord
Cost increased from 400/100 to 450/100
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Rotation rate increased from 200 to 225
Brightlance now fires while moving (50% accuracy)
Wraithguard
Health increased from 600 to 667
Wraithguard Warlock now grants +1 speed during Fall Back
Autarch
Health decreased from 750 to 700
Speed decreased from 8 to 7.5
Call-in grenade damage decreased from 180 to 110
Call-in grenade damage to retreating units modifier decreased from 5 to 4.5
Call-in grenades now stun infantry units for 3 seconds
Leap energy cost increased from 30 to 55
Scorpion Shield (passive aura) ranged damage reduction increased from 10% to 15%
D-Cannon Weapon Team
Singularity delay decreased by 1 second
Fire Prism
Build time increased from 40 to 50 seconds
Acceleration and deceleration increased from 7 to 8
Rotation rate increased from 100 to 200
Speed decreased from 6.5 to 6
Explosive Shot damage increased from 70 to 80
Focused Shot damage increased from 160 to 175
Delay and cooldown when switching between Explosive and Focused Shot decreased from 4 to 2 seconds
Avatar
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Seer Council
Now available from the HQ for all heroes
Build time decreased from 60 to 50 seconds
Base cost decreased from 800/160 to 700/100
Reinforcement cost increased from 50% to 67%
Ranged attack damage increased from 21 to 25
Webway Gate
Warlock-specific ability name and icon changed
WSE-specific ability name and icon changed
Farseer-specific ability name changed
Tyranids
General changes
New global: Infestation (T2) – spawns a capillary tower that grants 25% suppression resistance, 5% damage mitigation and 0.3 Biomass per second (18 per minute)
Synapse backlash knockback type changed from ability to weapon
Basic Synapse damage reduction veterancy scaling increased from 3% to 5% per level (damage mitigation increased from 20/22/25/27% to 20/24/28/31%)
Tyranid structures will now regnerate health slowly
Without Number now spawns a Ripper Swarm at the HQ Without Number cost increased from 50/0/100 to 200/0/100
Without Number cooldown increased from 90 to 240 seconds
Brood Nest cost increased from 75 to 100 Biomass
Brood Nest population cost increased from 4 to 5
Brood Nest now increases the health regeneration of nearby units by 0.25
Stalk cost increased from 35 to 75 Biomass
Stalk now decreases enemy hero damage by 10% for the duration
Stalk now increases the Lictor Alpha’s damage and speed by 25% for the duration
Tyranoform delay decreased by 1 second
Tyranoform main towers’ damage decreased from 300 to 175
Tyranoform now increases the speed of allied Tyranid infantry by 1 for 20 seconds in a radius of 40 from the targeting point
Tyranoform capillary tower synapse ranged damage bonus increased from 15% to 25%
Hive Tyrant
Rotation rate decreased from 600 to 300
Rending Talons cost adjusted from 115/25 to 120/20
Crushing Claw cost increased from 150/50 to 200/50
Venom Cannon damage increased from 55 to 63
Charge cannot knock back retreating units anymore (but still knocks back non-retreating heavy units)
Improved Synapse cost decreased from 120/30 to 120/25
Bonded Exoskeleton cost increased from 150/40 to 185/50
Invulnerability duration increased from 9 to 12 seconds
Bio-Plasma damage increased from 80 to 90
Bio-Plasma orb speed increased
Psychic Scream cooldown decreased from 50 to 40 seconds
Psychic Scream cost decreased from 115/25 to 100/20
Ravener Alpha
Health decreased from 720 to 650
Tunnel build time increased from 10 to 12 seconds
Ravener Alpha will now appear at the exit (far end) after using Tunnel
Acid Splatter damage increased from 60 to 75 and splash damage from 15 to 20
Acid Splatter cost increased from 120/20 to 135/30
Corrosive Devourer cost decreased from 150/50 to 140/40
Strengthened Sinew no longer grants Fleet of Claw
Strengthened Sinew now increases speed by 1.5
Strengthened Sinew moved from T1 to T2
Strengthened Sinew cost adjusted from 100/25 to 110/20
Regenerate cost decreased from 150/40 to 120/30
Regenerate no longer has a chance of reviving the RA after death
Regenerate now increases health regeneration by 0.3
Toxic Miasma cost decreased from 130/30 to 100/25
Toxic Miasma moved from T2 to T1
Toxic Miasma energy drain decreased from 4 to 3
Toxic Miasma damage increased from 7.5 to 10
Burrow knockback type changed from ability to weapon
Burrow Trap initial delay increased from 0 to 3 seconds
Burrow Trap build time decreased from 6 to 3 seconds
Burrow Trap cooldown decreased from 30 to 5 seconds
Synapse Aura (Damage) radius increased from 15 to 25
Hive Node health decreased from 750 to 500
Hive Node Spore Cloud cooldown reduced from 60 to 40 seconds
Hive Node Spore Cloud radius increased from 20 to 25
Lictor Alpha
Health increased from 630 to 670
Sight radius increased from 38 to 45
Camouflage revert_max decreased from 8 to 6
Flesh Hooks behavior reverted from 3.19.1 to 3.14.2 version
Corrosive Claws damage increase debuff decreased from 25% to 20%
Scything Talons damage increased from 51 to 65
Scything Talons now grant the Scythe ability
Scything Talons cost increased from 100/20 to 120/30
Toxic Miasma damage over time increased from 5 x 2 to 4.5 x 3
Toxic Cysts health bonus increased from 100 to 125
Toxic Burst now increases the Lictor Alpha’s health regeneration by 0.5 for the duration
Adrenal Glands energy bonus decreased from 100 to 50
Adrenal Glands energy regeneration bonus increased from 0.1 to 0.2
Adrenal Glands now increase health regeneration by 0.1
Menacing Visage moved from T2 to T3
Hormagaunt Brood
Cost decreased from 300/0 to 270/0
Start with 8 melee charge range
Adrenal Glands increase charge range to 12
Jump settings modified
Termagant Brood
No changes
Warrior Brood
Health decreased from 360 to 350
Default damage increased from 18 to 21
Adrenal Glands damage increased from 20.6 to 23
Adrenal Glands cost increased from 100/20 to 100/25
Adrenal Glands increase reinforcement cost by 15/3
Warriors can now be re-upgraded with Adrenal Glands despite having the Barbed Strangler upgrade (still cannot purchase BS after committing to AG)
Ravener Brood
Cost increased from 350/40 to 400/40
Build time increased from 24 to 30 seconds
Speed decreased from 7.5 to 6.5
Burrow now breaks suppression and grants suppression immunity and 90% ranged damage resistance until the jump is complete
Enhanced Muscle Coil now increases speed by 1
Enhanced Muscle Coil cost increased from to 50/20 to 60/25
Enhanced Muscle Coil moved from T1 to T2
Devourer moved from T2 to T1
Devourer cost decreased from 100/30 to 60/25
Spore Mines
Build time decreased from 15 to 8 seconds
Ripper Swarm
Base cost adjusted from 20/3 to 26/0 per model
Can now reinforce (13/0)
Venom Brood
Melee charge removed
Cost increased from 300/0 to 350/15
Ranged Synapse cost adjusted from 100/30 to 50/40
Zoanthrope
Speed decreased from 5 to 4.5
Rotation rate increased from 600 to 800
Health increased from 250 to 333
Damage decreased from 75 to 65
Cooldown increased from 0 to 1
Wind up decreased from 2 to 1
Healing Synapse radius increased from 12 to 22
Healing Synapse health regeneration multiplier decreased from 4.5/11.25/28.125/70.3125 to 3.5/5.25/7.875/11.8125 (level 1/2/3/4)
Warp Field efficiency decreased from 3.33 to 2 damage per energy
Genestealer Brood
Cost adjusted from 425/55 to 450/50
Build time decreased from 36 to 30 seconds
Adrenal Rush cooldown decreased from 60 to 40 seconds
Tyrant Guard
Population cost decreased from 15 to 12
Build time increased from 30 to 45 seconds
Speed decreased from 4 to 3.5
Damage increased from 80 to 95
Special attack area type changed from point to line
Lictor
Capped to a maximum of 1 per player
Cost increased from 400/50 to 400/75
Build time increased from 20 to 30 seconds
Health increased from 1000 to 1250
Carnifex
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Cost decreased from 600/160 to 600/150
Build time increased from 30 to 50 seconds
Thornback cost decreased from 200/50 to 150/50
Charge cannot knock back retreating units (but still knocks back heavy non-retreating units)
Barbed Strangler cooldown decreased from 4 to 3 and reload duration from 5 to 4
Barbed Strangler cost increased from 90/50 to 100/50
Venom Cannon damage increased from 74 to 85
Venom Cannon reload frequency increased from 2 to 3
Venom Cannon reload duration increased from 2 to 3
Venom Cannon cost increased from 100/50 to 150/50
Bio-Plasma damage increased from 100 to 120
Bio-Plasma orb speed increased
Swarmlord
Cost increased from 800/180 to 800/200
Chaos Space Marines
New units
Chaos Raptors
Chaos Terminators
Land Raider Phobos
General changes
Malingnant Blindness cost decreased from 125 to 100 Favor
Bloodlust melee damage bonus decreased from 5% to 2%
Bloodlust now increases ranged damage by 1% on hit
Bloodlust cost increased from 175 to 200 Favor
Blood Sacrifice cost decreased from 200 to 175 Favor
Plague of Undeath cost increased from 175 to 200 Favor
Plague of Undeath duration increased from 20 to 25 seconds
Touch of Nurgle can now be targeted on allied Chaos units
Touch of Nurgle explosions of Heretics do 37.5 damage while other units explode for 75 damage; heal effect is 75 and radius is 10 for all models
Touch of Nurgle explosions prevent other models within 5 radius from exploding until a 3 second cooldown has expired
Noxious Cloud speed decreased from 4.5 to 4
Noxious Cloud duration decreased from 22 to 16 seconds
Noxious Cloud self energy drain rate increased by 37.5% (from 0.45 to 0.61875 every 0.1 seconds)
Dark Flames damage type changed from flame_aoe_ability_pvp to flame_pvp
Dark Flames moved from T1 to T2
Mass Warp reworked into Warp; teleports one unit to the Sorcerer for 100 Favor
Daemonic Summoning cost decreased from 250 to 200 Favor
New T3 global: Summon Chaos Terminators
Empyreal Abyss delay increased by 1 second
Empyreal Abyss hooks cannot pull in retreating units
Chaos Lord
New unlock: unique chest piece (54)
Rotation rate decreased from 600 to 400
Melee charge range decreased from 12 to 10.5
Combi-Flamer cost decreased from 120/30 to 100/30
Blood Maul damage type changed from power melee to melee
Blood Maul special attack damage increased from 40 to 50
Sweeping Doom now causes a 5 second stun effect
Blood Maul cost increased from 150/35 to 150/50
Harness of Rage health regeneration bonus increased from 0.1 to 0.25
Harness of Rage now increases melee damage by 10%
Harness of Rage cost increased from 100/25 to 125/25
Let the Galaxy Burn fireballs decreased from 5 to 4
Drain Life duration reduced from 6 to 3 seconds
Drain Life damage increased from 10 to 20 dps (total damage remains 60 as duration is reduced)
Drain Life heal increased from 20 to 50 hp/s (total heal increased from 120 to 150 as duration is reduced)
Daemonic Visage now passively reduces weapon damage of non-building/vehicle enemies by 15% in radius 25
Daemonic Visage cost increased from 100/30 to 125/35
Plague Champion
Health increased from 650 to 680
Default bolter damage increased from 5 to 8 and damage over time from 0.75 to 0.9
Bilious Discharge targeting range decreased from 40 to 30 and weapon range from 45 to 35
Plague Sword cost decreased from 150/30 to 135/30
Fetid Armor health bonus increased from 100 to 150
Armor of Pestilence speed penalty decreased from 1 to 0.5
Armor of Pestilence no longer causes an explosion on death
Armor of Pestilence now grants the Aura of Decay ability, charged by taking damage
Icon of Nurgle radius increased from 15 to 22
Icon of Nurgle damage frequency decreased from 1.5 to 2.5 seconds
Chaos Sorcerer
Doombolts collision type changed from homing to plasma
Consume now also heals for 40 health
Coruscating Flame duration decreased from 10 to 7 seconds
Coruscating Flame damage type changed from flame_aoe_ability_pvp to flame_pvp
Coruscating Flame damage decreased from 3 to 2 per second
Coruscating Flame now only damages enemy units
Rod of Warpfire default ranged attack damage increased from 25 to 50
Chains of Torment (wargear) health bonus increased from 100 to 150
Chains of Torment (wargear) now increases health regeneration by 0.1
Daemon Armor health bonus increased from 100 to 150
Daemon Armor now increases maximum energy by 40
Daemon Armor now increases energy regeneration by 0.15
Daemonic Shield now grants suppression immunity and breaks suppression
Curse of Tzeentch duration increased from 10 to 15 seconds
Curse of Tzeentch damage decreased from 35 to 25
Chaos Heretics
Cost decreased from 260/0 to 230/0
Health decreased from 80 to 75
Global value increased from 3 to 4
Aspiring Champion squad health buff increased from 15% to 20%
Aspiring Champion cost adjusted from 95/30 to 100/25
Nurgle Worship health regeneration bonus decreased from 0.5 to 0.35
Daemon health regeneration bonus of all Worship types decreased from 1.2 to 1.0
Toggle delay of all Worship types reduced from 3 to 2 seconds
Aspiring Champion now has a melee charge
Chaos Space Marines
Upgrading to Mark of Khorne now changes the squad’s appearance
Upgrading to Mark of Tzeentch now changes the squad’s appearance
Aspiring Champion equips a new bolt pistol, damage increased from 7 to 22
Aspiring Champion cost increased from 80/15 to 80/25
Eternal War cost decreased from 75/20 to 60/15
Mark of Khorne cost incerased from 75/20 to 90/30
Mark of Khorne health bonus increased from 10% to 15%
Chaos Havocs
Lascannon setup duration decreased from 5 to 4 seconds
Lascannon reload duration decreased from 5 to 3.5 seconds
Autocannon damage increased from 50 to 60
Noise Marines
Health decreased from 350 to 333
Rotation rate increased from 300 to 600
Population cost decreased from 5 to 4
Squad now equips one sonic blaster and two bolters
Sonic blaster damage increased from 5 to 15
Sonic blaster range decreased from 27 to 26
Sonic blaster cooldown increased from 0 to 0.3
Bloodcrusher
Charge cooldown increased from 20 to 30 seconds
Charge does not knock back retreating units
Bloodletters
Cost decreased from 440/40 to 400/40 and upkeep from 10.2 to 7.7
Health (HQ Bloodletters only) increased from 250 to 300
Damage type changed from heavy melee to power melee
Damage increased from 38 to 45
Temporary Bloodletter damage type changed to power melee
Temporary Bloodletter damage decreased from 50 to 45
Melee charge changed from range 0-12 charge into range 6-17 automatic teleport, cooldown increased from 6 to 12 seconds
Blood Sacrifice Bloodletters now have a double energy drain rate (additional -5 per second) starting after a 20 second delay
Plague Marines
Speed decreased from 4.5 to 4
Passive slow aura effect decreased from 30% to 20%
Missile launcher snare effect increased from 25% to 40%
Death explosion healing effect no longer affects Plague Marines
Death explosion damage decreased from 80 to 50
Cost adjusted from 500/40 to 450/50
Chaos Dreadnought
Build time decreased from 50 to 40 seconds
Rotation rate increased from 200 to 225
Special attacks no longer knock back retreating units (but still knock back heavy non-retreating units)
Autocannon damage increased from 50 to 60
Missile launcher minimum range decreased from 15 to 5
Missile launcher friendly fire removed
Frenzied Barrage damage increased from 10 to 20
Blood Rage duration decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Blood Rage cooldown decreased from 40 to 30 seconds
Mark of Khorne cost decreased from 100/45 to 100/30
Mark of Tzeentch cost increased from 80/20 to 100/30
Chaos Predator
Mark of Khorne damage bonus increased from 25% to 75% (autocannon damage lowered to compensate; only changes bolter damage)
Mark of Khorne cost decreased from 150/35 to 100/30
Mark of Nurgle now grants 40% resistance to melee damage
Mark of Nurgle now grants autocannon shells that infect infantry
Mark of Nurgle cost decreased from 150/50 to 100/40
Lascannon splash pattern changed (was set for 3 radius despite splash being 1)
Great Unclean One
Cost increased from 700/180 to 800/200
Now has a Nurgle decorator
Now has a passive aura causing 5 piercing damage every 1.5 second in radius 15
Vomit now fires considerably faster (animation changed and wind-up decreased)
Vomit damage decreased from 250 to 225
Vomit cooldown increased from 30 to 50 seconds
Swarm of Flies knocback type changed from ability to weapon
Heavy Bolter Turret
Lascannon Turret cost decreased from 80/40 to 75/0
Lascannon Turret build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Lascannon Turret wind-up decreased from 2 to 1
Lascannon Turret wind-down decreased from 4.3 to 4
Chaos Shrines
Chaos Shrines cost decreased from 150/20 to 150/15
Amount capped to a maximum of 3 per player
Chaos Shrine of Khorne now increases the damage of friendly units by 10% in a radius of 25
Chaos Shrine of Nurgle healing pulse buffed from 5% to 7%
Chaos Shrine of Nurgle effect radius increased from 20 to 25
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch now grants 10% damage resistance in a radius of 25
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch doombolt speed increased
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch range decreased from 50 to 44
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch doombolt scatter decreased
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch doombolt splash radius increased from 3 to 4 with full damage in the entire radius
Chaos Shrine of Tzeentch doombolt friendly fire removed
Imperial Guard
New units
Artillery Spotter Squad
General changes
Imperial Guard Bunker cost decreased from 150/0/5 to 100/0/75
Imperial Guard Bunker population cost decreased from 5 to 3
Medical Bunker heal radius increased from 20 to 30
Medical Bunker cost decreased from 150/50 to 125/30
Medical Bunker build time decreased from 30 to 20 seconds
Repair Bunker cost decreased from 150/50 to 125/30
Repair Bunker build time decreased from 30 to 20 seconds
Hellfury Strike now only affects infantry units
Valkyrie Bane Wolf Drop cost adjusted from 350/50/175 to 350/40/200
Basilisk Creeping Barrage damage decreased from 40 to 30
Delay between Creeping Barrage shells increased from 1 to 1.5 seconds
Basilisk Creeping Barrage cost decreased from 200 to 175 Command
Heavy Turret cooldown increased from 0 to 30 seconds
Heavy Turret tracking speed increased from 40/15 to 80/30
Heavy Turret Executioner Cannon is now free
Heavy Turret Executioner Cannon maximum range increased from 38 to 48
Heavy Turret Executioner Cannon build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Valkyrie Leman Russ Drop cost decreased from 600/0/275 to 500/0/200
Off-map Basilisk Flare duration increased from 10 to 14 seconds
Off-map Basilisk Flare cooldown decreased from 120 to 100 seconds
Air Dropped Mines initial delay decreased from 20 to 10 seconds
Air Dropped Mines vehicle snare effect increased from 5 to 30 seconds
Multi-las Turret Salvage delay decreased from 10 to 7.5 seconds
Multi-las Turret Salvage return increased from 75/2.5 to 75/5
Inquisitor
New unlocks for the Inquisitor: common armor (0), rare armor (21), epic armor (42)
New accessory for the Inquisitor: Servo Skull (T1, 100/20)
New ability for the Inquisitor: Auspex Scan (reveals an area briefly, requires the Servo Skull accessory)
Hammer of the Witches range increased from 25 to 30
Crippling Volley snare duration decreased from 8 to 6 seconds
Crippling Volley damage removed
Holy Brazier special attack damage increased from 50 to 60
Assail no longer requires the Inquisitor to stand still
Assail now immobilizes and deals damage over time
Purgatus cost increased from 200/35 to 200/50
Purgatus damage decreased from 200 to 170
Rosarius price increased from 100/20 to 120/30
Impenetrable duration decreased from 10 to 7 seconds
Lord General
New unlocks: epic armor (12), medal 1 (24), medal 2 (32), medal 3 (44), hat (48), bear pelt (56), cigar (60)
Grenade Launchers cost adjusted from 130/20 to 90/30
Fire on my target! range buff increased from 35% to 50%
Meltaguns moving accuracy increased from 50% to 100%
Retinue Storm Trooper cost increased from 50 to 60 Requisition
Carapace Armor now increases maximum energy by 20
Flak Jacket cost decreased from 150/35 to 125/30
Incoming! now grants immunity to all types of knockback
Incoming! now has a “Tactical Advance” fx
Back in the Fight! cooldown reduced from 60 to 50 seconds
Stabilisers cost decreased from 150/30 to 125/30
Distribute Medi-pack Kit cooldown increased from 10 to 20 seconds
Distribute Medi-pack Kit energy cost increased from 50 to 60
Refractor Field damage mitigation decreased from 55% to 50%
Commissar Lord
Lead by Example AoE damage buff increased from 10% to 15%
Power Fist cost decreased from 150/50 to 150/40
Carapace Armor now increases health regeneration by 0.25
Carapace Armor now decreases Inspire Courage energy cost by 25 (from 20)
Carapace Armor now grants further benefits to Inspire Courage: a 15% damage bonus and suppression immunity for 15 seconds for the Commissar Lord
Carapace Armor cost decreased from 150/35 to 100/30
Bionic Eye no longer increases maximum energy
Inspire Determination will now heal the target squad to full health
Inspire Determination will now increase target speed by 3.5
Inspire Determination no longer grants knockback immunity
Aura of Discpiline now passively heals allied infantry within radius 20 every 8 seconds; the healing effect is stronger with only few models nearby and gets progressively weaker when there are more
Aura of Discipline cost decreased from 125/35 to 110/20
Stubbornness heal effect decreased from 10 to 7
Guardsman Infantry Squad
Deployable Cover build time decreased from 25 to 10 seconds
Sergeant population cost decreased from 4 to 3
Commissar population cost decreased from 4 to 3
Regeneration in combat increased from 0 to 0.5
Sentinel
Health decreased from 750 to 700
Cost decreased from 350/0 to 300/0
Extra Armor removed
Now starts without Ground Pound
Now has a Ground Pound upgrade, which Unlocks the Ground Pound ability and increases maximum health by 100
Ground Pound stun duration increased from 5 to 7 seconds
Missile Launcher cost decreased from 100/40 to 80/25
Krak Missile reload duration decreased from 6 to 5
Keen sense radius decreased from 15 to 10
XP value increased from 50 to 150
Global value increased from 15 to 22
Heavy Weapon Squad
Regeneration in combat adjusted from 0 or 1 to 0.5
Heavy weapon model population cost increased from 3 to 4
Rifle model population cost decreased from 3 to 2
Sergeant population cost decreased from 3 to 2
Rifle models have their lasguns back
Squad can no longer use Repair if the heavy weapon is set up
Autocannon damage increased from 55 to 60
Catachan Devils
Squad members increased from 5 to 7
Sarge population cost decreased from 3 to 2
Health decreased from 210 to 140
Melee damage decreased from 30 to 20
Shotgun damage decreased from 30 to 20
Reinforce time decreased from 75% to 50%
Cost decreased from 400/40 to 350/40
Grenade launcher man population cost decreased from 2 to 0
XP value decreased from 110 to 100
Regeneration in combat increased from 0 to 0.5
Smoke Grenade cooldown increased from 0 to 20
Smoke Grenade can now be targeted into the FoW Smoke Grenade now only decreases incoming (not outgoing) ranged damage
Improvised Explosives population cost decreased from 2 to 0
Storm Troopers
Sight radius increased from 40 to 50
Assault Kit now grants the Frag Grenade ability
Assault Kit range bonus decreased from 40% to 20%
Anti-Armor Kit cost decreased from 75/25 to 50/25
Melta Bomb range increased from 20 to 36
Regeneration in combat increased from 0 to 0.5
Ogryn Squad
Rotation rate decreased from 500 to 400
XP value increased from 175 to 240
Global value increased from 14 to 16
Regeneration in combat decreased from 1 to 0.5
Domino strength threshold increased from 60 to 100
Use yer ‘ead! knockback frequency decreased from 5 to 4 seconds
Chimera
Cost decreased from 300/70 to 300/65
Build time increased from 45 to 50 seconds
Extra Armor cost decreased from 90/20 to 50/15
Extra Armor build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Manticore
Removed speed increase during “out of control” death
Manticore rocket damage against light buildings (generators) decreased from 1 to 0.5
Bane Wolf
Valkyrie Bane Wolf Drop cost adjusted from 350/50/175 to 350/40/200
Leman Russ
Health decreased from 900 to 700
Now (again) has a defence rating of 100 (grants approx. 35% damage resistance)
Extra Armor removed
Now has the Elite Tank Crew upgrade which permanently increases health by 100 and sight radius by 15
Executioner build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Executioner damage increased from 18 to 25
Vanquisher build time decreased from 30 to 15 seconds
Vanquisher cooldown decreased from 6 to 4.5
Valkyrie Leman Russ Drop cost decreased from 600/0/275 to 500/0/200
Baneblade
Health decreased from 3750 to 3500
Baneblade Cannon ability removed
Baneblade main cannon will now fire automatically like regular weapons
Baneblade main cannon damage decreased from 450 to 150
Baneblade main cannon no longer does knockback
Baneblade main cannon range decreased from 55 to 50
Demolisher Cannon cooldown decreased from 30 to 20 seconds
Demolisher Cannon no longer disables combat
Demolisher Cannon range decreased from 55 to 50
Demolisher Cannon weapon family changed from autocannon_tank_pvp to psychic_pvp
Demolisher Cannon damage decreased from 400 to 300
^ A bunch of modders did all that in their free time and didn't make any money off of it.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
2012/12/18 03:35:15
Subject: Re:Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but there is one point that I'd like to make that has been skirted around by some people. The universality (or lack thereof) of the various rules and rules systems. I play 40k, MTG, and WM. Of the three, I've been playing MTG the longest (since '94). I can, and have, gone just about anywhere in the world and the rules of MTG don't change. I have played MTG with someone that doesn't even speak English with entirely non-English cards and we can play MTG just fine. I can't even play the same game of 40k at my FLGS without everyone, or most everyone, having their own opinion and interpretation about how rules work (or don't). There seems to be an issue if I can change tables in the same building and change how the game is played. This is the "problem" I have with the 40k rule set. There is ambiguity in how rules are worded or how they play out. And this is a problem for people that move around several times or travel a lot.
Why should I not be able to play the same game of 40k in Texas that I could play in Timbuktu? That's what I fail to understand about the looseness of 40k's rules. Every time I've had to move to a new area and find a new FLGS to game in, I've had to figure out what "version" of 40k is being played and how. El Paso-hammer is different than Monterey-hammer, which is further different from Sarasota-hammer yet all three use the same source materials; BRB, codexes, and GWFAQs. This is also an issue for people just visiting as well. MTG doesn't have this problem. I can understand GW not wanting to fix this issue, but I fail to understand how people don't see this as an issue in the first place or wouldn't want to resolve this issue with a tighter or better worded rule set. One should be able to play the with the same rules anywhere, whether at a FLGS, their basement, on a kitchen table at a friends, or in a Grad Prix. The rules of the game should not change with a change in location or time zone (MTG "Un" cards notwithstanding). I certainly enjoy playing 40k, but I could enjoy it more and with more people by actually playing it than by taking time to discuss and figure out what the rules actually mean instead of what they say (or should say) in black in white.
There is a fine line between genius and insanity and I colored it in with crayon.
2012/12/18 03:49:56
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
I'd be happy with clear rules that use the consistent wording throughout the book instead of casual wording that requires inferences based on what the writers assume you know.
The biggest problem is that there is so much 'if you play it right' that is required to be applied that players who have a disagreement on what the right way is only have a book that doesn't clearly convey what the writer's intent was.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 03:50:37
So my apologies if this has already been suggested (I have read most of this thread, but not all of it because as some of you above have mentioned, it isn't really going anywhere), but what if GW took a page from many current multiplayer video games and had a public beta of new and upcoming rules?
Now fully public would be impossible as there are too many out there who would more likely be detrimental to the process than actually helpful, but if GW made people apply for the beta by filling out a questionnaire which included an "explain why you should be a part of this beta in 500 words or less" essay, and take the first X (I have no idea how many people actually test rules for them so I don't have a good number for you) people who sounded like they would legitimately work on the project, they could make some very good rules with very little work on their end (and if the rules are bad, the players would be the ones to blame).
Setting this up would probably be expensive/time consuming, but as soon as they did once (so long as it was successful), all the pieces would be there to do it again with little to no effort on their part. This would allow them to focus on being a modeling company first...
2012/12/18 07:08:41
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Damnosus wrote: So my apologies if this has already been suggested (I have read most of this thread, but not all of it because as some of you above have mentioned, it isn't really going anywhere), but what if GW took a page from many current multiplayer video games and had a public beta of new and upcoming rules?
IIRC they were asked to do this at a recent Q&A, and they weren't to thrilled with the suggestion.
2012/12/18 07:21:35
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Damnosus wrote: So my apologies if this has already been suggested (I have read most of this thread, but not all of it because as some of you above have mentioned, it isn't really going anywhere), but what if GW took a page from many current multiplayer video games and had a public beta of new and upcoming rules?
IIRC they were asked to do this at a recent Q&A, and they weren't to thrilled with the suggestion.
Wow really??? That's very unfortunate. Do you think a mass petition would do anything?
2012/12/18 07:36:27
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Mr Morden wrote: Well we have totally different views on MTG thats clear same as 40K.
You're right. Mine are correct, yours are based on not understanding MTG very well. That's a big difference.
Afinity should never have been released in any game that had undergone any form of playtesting
Again, mistakes happen. For whatever reason the playtesters never assembled the worst of the affinity decks and so it slipped through under the assumption that it was a powerful but not game-breaking mechanic.
The simple fact is that expecting playtesting to be 100% is completely unrealistic. No plausible amount of playtesting is going to catch everything, simply because there are a lot more players than playtesters and they spend a lot more (total) time on trying to find your mistakes and exploit them. The point here is that WOTC does extensive playtesting and usually gets it right, while GW makes mistake after mistake after mistake and openly admits that they don't playtest properly.
Oh and yeah WOTC banned cards - after people had spent a fortune on them to make winning decks.
Yes, as an absolute last resort when it became obvious that the game was completely broken they banned some cards, many of them worthless commons. But here's the difference:
WOTC has the sense and courage to admit their mistakes and make appropriate changes for the good of the game, even if it means upsetting the players who benefited from the lack of balance.
GW does absolutely nothing to fix game balance issues.
See a problem here yet?
Of course that works well for WOTC as people then have to buy all new power cards...........strange how that works.
Sorry, but that's just stupid. WOTC very rarely bans cards at all, and they aren't always the most expensive cards. If you really believe that WOTC uses bans to boost sales you are completely out of touch with reality.
GW does often try to fix problems with FAQs - like all games - check out all the various tabletop games and find the errata and FAQs - they ALL have them. Now GW does not always get it right on indeed in a timely manner...............
GW occasionally fixes ambiguous rules with FAQs, but does a poor job of it.
GW never fixes BALANCE problems. If they screw up and release an unbalanced unit you're stuck with it for years until the next version of that codex comes out.
Downward power sprials, what nonsense - you are seriously contending that my cards - Legends, Antiquities, Ice Age and Revised are in any way a match for the massively powerful new abilities and costings or cards - not according to all the people who still play it here. And all the shiny rares are rubbish - yeah right.............thats must be why all the rares are sold at 10p each - oh wait no.......... I tried playing the older cards back in the day - new ones are just on the whole better....
Sorry, but you're wrong. If you really believe that the most recent cards are more powerful than the oldest ones then you clearly never played competitive MTG. I can think of quite a few old tournament winners that would dominate anything you can put together with a modern set. And if you remove the bans on the most powerful old cards (since if you require old cards to be banned to make the comparison you've conceded that they're more powerful and the modern deck can't handle them) the modern deck is going to lose every game before it gets a second turn.
Anyway, here's a good example of why claiming power creep in MTG is so stupid. Lightning bolt was printed in the very first set, and from day one was considered a powerful card. And guess what: WOTC has never printed "lightning bolt +1" like they would if they were using power creep. And what did WOTC do when they wanted to push the boundaries a bit and do something exciting? Re-print lightning bolt, the card everyone thought was too good to ever come back. And for the entire time that set was legal lightning bolt was a top-tier card. So, how exactly can there be power creep if the very first cards are still just as powerful as when they were first printed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 07:51:51
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2012/12/18 07:58:59
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
Damnosus wrote: So my apologies if this has already been suggested (I have read most of this thread, but not all of it because as some of you above have mentioned, it isn't really going anywhere), but what if GW took a page from many current multiplayer video games and had a public beta of new and upcoming rules?
IIRC they were asked to do this at a recent Q&A, and they weren't to thrilled with the suggestion.
Wow really??? That's very unfortunate. Do you think a mass petition would do anything?
Not in the slightest. A well written letter to some of the studio guys would do far better than an online petition, which tends to be ignored more than... something ignored a lot.
That's something a lot of people don't get. Well written rules don't mean it will be different to now. They could release a game even more random than 6th edition, but still have it well written and unambiguous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 08:00:57
2012/12/18 08:09:12
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
-Loki- wrote: That's something a lot of people don't get. Well written rules don't mean it will be different to now. They could release a game even more random than 6th edition, but still have it well written and unambiguous.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a false dilemma.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 08:09:28
I love the fact that so many people think it is GW's wish to ruin their second jobs. Warhammer is not an occupation, its a game. If there is a dilemma, the rulebook actually sets a course for that: a roll-off. Do you guys seriously approach every game of Warhammer, Magic, etc. as a potential argument? If so, you may need a hobby to take some stress off from your weekend job...
2012/12/21 12:43:17
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I love the fact that so many people think it is GW's wish to ruin their second jobs. Warhammer is not an occupation, its a game. If there is a dilemma, the rulebook actually sets a course for that: a roll-off. Do you guys seriously approach every game of Warhammer, Magic, etc. as a potential argument? If so, you may need a hobby to take some stress off from your weekend job...
No, and that's not the point.
The fact that GW seems incapable of writing clear unambiguous rules (consistently anyway) means that I can set out to have fun playing 40k and have it ruined because someone refuses to roll off, or insists on rolling off about one of the few absolutely clear rules. TMIR isn't a saving grace, it's something that should rarely ever get used. Instead, it's about once a game.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2012/12/21 16:36:07
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I love the fact that so many people think it is GW's wish to ruin their second jobs. Warhammer is not an occupation, its a game. If there is a dilemma, the rulebook actually sets a course for that: a roll-off. Do you guys seriously approach every game of Warhammer, Magic, etc. as a potential argument? If so, you may need a hobby to take some stress off from your weekend job...
No, and that's not the point.
The fact that GW seems incapable of writing clear unambiguous rules (consistently anyway) means that I can set out to have fun playing 40k and have it ruined because someone refuses to roll off, or insists on rolling off about one of the few absolutely clear rules. TMIR isn't a saving grace, it's something that should rarely ever get used. Instead, it's about once a game.
Then plan on massive price increases as the massive amount of playtesting to release all codexes in one version massively increases the payroll at GW. And remember, its the UK, so the pay is higher there.
listen, get a grip. its a game. if having to compromise or fudge a rule is that stressful to you or your opponents, maybe its not the rules, maybe its you and your opponents. I remember playing a game of Dungeon (look it up) with my nephew and he found a problem with a rule. you know what we did? we fudged it so we could move on with the game. and the Earth did not split in two and the rivers didn't run with blood.
likewise, I was poisoned by a discussion on this page in a rules argument, and then ran into the same situation in a game with a friend. when I made the same quibble that had been made on the thread, he looked like he was going to eat my face off, then he told me to get a grip and stop trying to be Timmy the Power Gamer.
the rules are fine. maybe its the people whose lives seem to depend on the rules that misinterpret the Most Important Rule, you know, to have fun? I'm sure that GW goes out of their way to make rules that seem to make sense when they write them so that they may be disemboweled because of a rule they wrote three years ago for another edition.
I'd really love to have seen what a discussion page woukd have.looked like in the days of 1st edition AD&D... wow... the number a out-of-joint egos would be ridiculous...
2012/12/21 17:06:05
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: the rules are fine. maybe its the people whose lives seem to depend on the rules that misinterpret the Most Important Rule, you know, to have fun? I'm sure that GW goes out of their way to make rules that seem to make sense when they write them so that they may be disemboweled because of a rule they wrote three years ago for another edition.
The problem is that the rules are not fine. The fact that they have to have a "if you disgree on the rule then roll-off" rule in the first place is a major key to that fact. Well written rules don't need a hard coded process to deal with rules confusions built into them. It is that simple. Cleanly and clearly written rules make the fun aspect of the game MUCH easier to achieve. I have spent many a day playing colonial games using the In Darkest Africa ruleset. They are one of the simplest rulesets out there, but are clearly written and defined and make the overall experience consistently fun. I also spend plenty of time playing Flames of War which is a combined arms game that includes rules for infantry, vehicles, armor, guns, artillery and aircraft so is pretty complicated in its approach *but* the rules are well written and clear, so again the overall experience consistently is fun.
It just really bugs me that version after version GW keeps refusing to make things clear and concise and instead keep relying on that stupid roll off rule. When you read the new 6th edition book you can see what the authors *probably* meant in certain areas of the books, but you don't *know* until they faq it. If they had just spelled it out as detailed in the faq in the first place there wouldn't need to be a faq, but for some reason GW still thinks that, despite decades of proof otherwise, that ALL players are just going to magically get what they mean when they can't be bothered to spell it out exactly. It is shoddy and they don't want to change it and it isn't surprising that people are tired of it.
Oh and to head off the obligatory "well then don't play and get rid of your stuff" response that comes in these discussions: I already do that. I love GW's minis still and enjoy buying and building them, but I play less and less 40k every month. When I can play multiple large games of Flames of War in the time I could get in one midsized game of 40k because of the rules annoyances I start playing Flames of War more often. It is that simple. The problem is that I really like 40k. I like the background and the stories and the feel, etc, etc. and would really like to see it be better than it is so I want to play it all the time again.
Skriker
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 17:10:42
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
2012/12/21 17:12:12
Subject: Why is GW dead set on putting out poor quality rule set?
then its probably all a huge conspiracy of laughs that GW has everytime they get an email or a phone call about a rules question, just like TSR back in the day...
listen, you want balance? then play the same army as your opponent. you want consistent rules? play the same army as your opponent. that will be they only way, short of becoming head of development at GW and forcing the release of every codex everytime a new edition comes out, that every matchup will be blanced and the rules will be consistent.
I swear, some of you guys need a hobby, Warhammer is stressing you out...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 17:35:14