Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tsilber wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
there is no proof that 18 parents would of been killed. Closing distance on a Gun is considered 21 feet. Even a group of 3-4 has a chance. Now lets say 2 people, carrying guns, bullet proof vest, and trained with guns wearing a badge, has a significant chance.

You might want to go look at the Looking to buy a gun thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491821.page

We've discussed closing distances and how it's a bad idea.

Also, a year ago a cop fired 13 rounds in 4.3 seconds hitting a suspect 11 times with a pistol... I don't have the training a cop does, but I can hit center mass pretty quickly too...

Im not sure what your saying about the gun firing fast, but my argument was cops should of entered the school prior to waiting for state police.

But in Ct permit class's and police class's (which i've done both of). Statistics show a person getting within 21 feet of a person with a gun has a high rate of survival, of coarse using some sort of cover and charging the suspect not trying to run away.

And for all we know there are no shots being fired at this time, and the shooter could be holding kids hostage, using them as a human shield, or set up some sort of bomb that will go off as soon as the PD enters the area. There are plenty of reasons not to go charging into a situation like that.

 MrMerlin wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Saying 'ban guns from crazy peaople' is just as effective as Toronto City Council trying to ban the sale of all bullets within city limits after the Eaton Center mass shooting or the Danzig Streetparty mass shooting.

Yet banning guns from crazy people seems to work really well in Europe....

Not in Norway.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-wrong-ryan-lanza-pictured-on-cbs-2012-12

Apparently they have the wrong Ryan Lanza on TV

The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/right-to-own-handheld-device-that-shoots-deadly-me,30742/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=standard-post:headline:default

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Saying 'ban guns from crazy peaople' is just as effective as Toronto City Council trying to ban the sale of all bullets within city limits after the Eaton Center mass shooting or the Danzig Streetparty mass shooting.

Yet banning guns from crazy people seems to work really well in Europe....

Not in Norway.

That guy in norway was not just some mad lunatic who went on a killing spree for the fun of it, he was a terrorist. That is a completely different thing... terrorists will nearly always get their intsruments of mass destruction from somwhere.
I was talking about nutjobs who feel a "sudden" urge to kill, and only have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun

 Crablezworth wrote:
The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/right-to-own-handheld-device-that-shoots-deadly-me,30742/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=standard-post:headline:default

This is probably the better Onion article on the subject. Caution lots of swearing

Tsilber wrote:
but how can you not lose a little faith in humanity after seeing something like this.

Because out of 300,000,000 or so people in the US, the number of people of people that have done something like this in the last 20 years would fit on a single school bus (which could then be set on fire and pushed off the nearest cliff).

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
but how can you not lose a little faith in humanity after seeing something like this.

Because out of 300,000,000 or so people in the US, the number of people of people that have done something like this in the last 20 years would fit on a single school bus (which could then be set on fire and pushed off the nearest cliff).

You're right, thank you for your comment. But this one hits a little hard as it was 40 minutes away from the town i live in with my children. but i do appreciate your comment none the less, with all humility.

A truly sad day of events. I just hope that people keep a clear mind because in situations like this people will always go on a witch hunt. They shouldn't go all out against people owning guns in America. It was part of the founding blocks of its society. More gun awareness, education and screening for gun owners should be more stricked. But dont let a clouded mindset let you yell at the government to ban this and that.

Sensible controls and complete control over something are two different things. Just look at airport security in recent years, the TSA have been abusing so much of that power the government has given them. It would be sad to see that happen with gun laws too. Handing over total control to the government usually ends up with people in groups like the TSA abusing powers to give people less rights. I just dont want to see some old dude dragged from his house and slammed to the pavement by some new gun control squad because he owns 1 more bullet than the standard amount allowed or something like that.

Still guns should be given out stricter and automatic weapons banned.
That and made illegal to take off your premises unless in a safe box.

Until you can fit these nutters on one hand you've not done enough.

It is certainly a good time to have a reasonable discussion about gun safety and gun control in our country. I don't buy the whole "now is not the time to talk about this" rhetoric, but the discussion needs to be calm and focused and not driven by emotions.

Hmmm, to cling to a law created when guns could fire 3 rounds a minute seems a little obtuse.

Obviously the gun itself is not to blame, and the classic argument is about cars causing lots of deaths, so why not ban driving, but last time I drove, there were a BOLLOCK load of rules about where, when and how I could drive. these rules seem to be lacking in the realm of gun ownership

 MrMerlin wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Saying 'ban guns from crazy peaople' is just as effective as Toronto City Council trying to ban the sale of all bullets within city limits after the Eaton Center mass shooting or the Danzig Streetparty mass shooting.

Yet banning guns from crazy people seems to work really well in Europe....

Not in Norway.

That guy in norway was not just some mad lunatic who went on a killing spree for the fun of it, he was a terrorist. That is a completely different thing... terrorists will nearly always get their intsruments of mass destruction from somwhere.
I was talking about nutjobs who feel a "sudden" urge to kill, and only have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun

And that peice of rat turd turned out to be (gasp!) a psychopath.

So please, until we can find a perfect test to alert gun sellers/regulators to "is this dude a crazy-pants psychopath/sociopath?", we can't keep guns out of their hands.
And if the nutt jobs can't get them legally, well, as you said, they'll find a way to get what they want/need to do these god-awful things.

Tsilber wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
but how can you not lose a little faith in humanity after seeing something like this.

Because out of 300,000,000 or so people in the US, the number of people of people that have done something like this in the last 20 years would fit on a single school bus (which could then be set on fire and pushed off the nearest cliff).

You're right, thank you for your comment. But this one hits a little hard as it was 40 minutes away from the town i live in with my children. but i do thank you for your comment with a humility.

I do understand, and people should be shocked/horrified/saddened/pissed by this. I have a 4 yr old niece that is the love of my life, and I have no idea how I would even begin to deal with something like this happening to her. I also don't have a lot of faith in humanity, but for entirely reasons. However the average person you meet on the street is going to be a fairly decent human being who is far more likely to try to get a child out of harm's way rather than subject them to harm. What scares me is when people fall victim to mob mentality based on emotionally charged situations, be that despair, anger, fear, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Until you can fit these nutters on one hand you've not done enough.

They'll still be nutters, they will simply find another tool.

d-usa wrote:It is certainly a good time to have a reasonable discussion about gun safety and gun control in our country. I don't buy the whole "now is not the time to talk about this" rhetoric, but the discussion needs to be calm and focused and not driven by emotions.

This...1000x this.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Saying 'ban guns from crazy peaople' is just as effective as Toronto City Council trying to ban the sale of all bullets within city limits after the Eaton Center mass shooting or the Danzig Streetparty mass shooting.

Yet banning guns from crazy people seems to work really well in Europe....

Not in Norway.

That guy in norway was not just some mad lunatic who went on a killing spree for the fun of it, he was a terrorist. That is a completely different thing... terrorists will nearly always get their intsruments of mass destruction from somwhere.
I was talking about nutjobs who feel a "sudden" urge to kill, and only have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun

And that peice of rat turd turned out to be (gasp!) a psychopath.

So please, until we can find a perfect test to alert gun sellers/regulators to "is this dude a crazy-pants psychopath/sociopath?", we can't keep guns out of their hands.
And if the nutt jobs can't get them legally, well, as you said, they'll find a way to get what they want/need to do these god-awful things.

Here's a large difference though:

The majority of these kinds of shootings are not akin to the Norway shootings. They are not done in a methodical, planned manner despite the appearance to us that they are because the shooter brings multiple guns.
The only "plan" these people have is to inflict as much damage as possible before they shuffle off this mortal coil. They acquire guns and intend to use them, no plan beyond that.

The "nutjobs who feel a sudden urge to kill and have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun" are usually people with very little in the way of run-ins with the police and thus are able to legally acquire guns.
Being unable to legally acquire guns within a short period of time would be another layer of 'protection' which could be added to prevent situations like this. As could mandatory screenings by mental health professionals, requirements of training with police agencies being involved, etc are other options which could easily be added.

For what it's worth, and despite the smack talk I will probably get by some friends and family I summed up my feelings on the old Facebook:

There will be lots if people calling for all kinds of stricter gun laws, and there will be lots of people saying that now is not the time for it. I think that it is as good a time as any to have a reasonable and calm discussion about gun safety and gun control. It needs to be a discussion that is free of emotions, which I admit will be hard at a time like this. We also need to acknowledge that this guy would not have been able to kill as many people as he did without a gun and accept that access to guns comes with a risk. On the anti-gun side we need to quit pretending that just because it looks big and scary it was an assault rifle. A regular old "hunting rifle" that is a semi-automatic will shoot just as fast and hold as many rounds as these so-called assault rifles. Making false claims about the abilities of weapons doesn't help the discussion. But it's a discussion that we need to have and it needs to focus on multiple levels: legislative review an improvements, enforcement of current laws, safe gun ownership, and factors apart from the actual guns itself such as screening and providing adequate services to people in need to prevent instances like this. If we want a strong 2nd amendment while having people with mental health issues then we need to make site we have a safe 2nd amendment and adequate services for people with mental health issues in a society where guns are prevalent.

As much as I hate to say it, I am not really surprised, and will not be surprised if we see another shooting event this holiday season.

Somehow I think that the low-lifes who do this sort of thing feed off of each other.

I do somewhat wonder where the school's duty officer was (if it had one). I know that both my middle school and high school had at least one sherriff/police officer at all times on the grounds during school and school events.

And I agree with d-usa.. Although I think we all know that when it comes to law makers and lobbyists, one of them will bring emotions to the table, and things will spiral out of control. It would be nice to see groups seriously look at the issue of gun "control" and come up with solutions that are relevant, viable, and acceptable by all law-abiding citizens and law enforcement alike.

There is not a single law that would have stopped this from happening. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens is a violation of civil rights. Forcing the mentally ill into treatment is a violation of civil rights. Identifying people as mentally ill who are not "in the system" is next to impossible if they are not symptomatic.

I would like to remind you guys that people who attempt to carry out copycat shootings are usually caught before they can do any harm. That's an example of the system working, I guess. The problem is that the system cannot predict or effectively defend against a lone gunman who acts without warning.

People saying it's not the guns, it's the nut jobs are wrong.

It's the nut jobs with the guns. Any freak on a lease can wander into a shop and pick up a semi-automatic weapon here, it's crazy.

The types of firearms and the ability to obtain them must be revised.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Saying 'ban guns from crazy peaople' is just as effective as Toronto City Council trying to ban the sale of all bullets within city limits after the Eaton Center mass shooting or the Danzig Streetparty mass shooting.

Yet banning guns from crazy people seems to work really well in Europe....

Not in Norway.

That guy in norway was not just some mad lunatic who went on a killing spree for the fun of it, he was a terrorist. That is a completely different thing... terrorists will nearly always get their intsruments of mass destruction from somwhere.
I was talking about nutjobs who feel a "sudden" urge to kill, and only have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun

And that peice of rat turd turned out to be (gasp!) a psychopath.

So please, until we can find a perfect test to alert gun sellers/regulators to "is this dude a crazy-pants psychopath/sociopath?", we can't keep guns out of their hands.
And if the nutt jobs can't get them legally, well, as you said, they'll find a way to get what they want/need to do these god-awful things.

That piece of rat turd, is, as i said, another kind of psycho, the one that plans. You can hardly do anything against those.
But you CAN stop the ones that go on a killing spree just for the "fun" of it. If they can't get hold of a gun, they'll go with an axe/bat/knife etc and inflicht waaay less damage.
And there ARE close to perfect tests to keep guns out of their hands.... you know, we have such tests in Europe, and they obviously work really well, because we don't have near as many shootings. We had this guy with an axe a few years ago, no deaths... there was a duche with an air pistol and a molotow cocktail, two dead... now if those had had access to real guns.... get the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Breotan wrote:
There is not a single law that would have stopped this from happening. Taking guns away from law abiding citizens is a violation of civil rights. Forcing the mentally ill into treatment is a violation of civil rights. Identifying people as mentally ill who are not "in the system" is next to impossible if they are not symptomatic.

I would like to remind you guys that people who attempt to carry out copycat shootings are usually caught before they can do any harm. That's an example of the system working, I guess. The problem is that the system cannot predict or effectively defend against a lone gunman who acts without warning.

Preventing psycopaths from obtaining guns is NOT a violation of any right, for feths sake! If someone proves mentally unstable, DO NOT hand him a gun.... this is soooo simple. Again, (I've already said that half a dozen times) it works where I live. It works really well. There IS a law here, and a similar one in america would possibly have stopped this guy (or at least he'd have been forced to use something less dangerous, not a rifle)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Here's a large difference though:

The majority of these kinds of shootings are not akin to the Norway shootings. They are not done in a methodical, planned manner despite the appearance to us that they are because the shooter brings multiple guns.
The only "plan" these people have is to inflict as much damage as possible before they shuffle off this mortal coil. They acquire guns and intend to use them, no plan beyond that.

The "nutjobs who feel a sudden urge to kill and have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun" are usually people with very little in the way of run-ins with the police and thus are able to legally acquire guns.

There are no "nutjobs who feel sudden urge to kill". People don't "snap", it's a myth. Events like this ALWAYS are preceded by long-term psychical problems and developing psychosis. And they are always planned in advance, sometimes years, just like the Norway guy. However, as these people are often relative loners, it's sometimes difficult to detect the warning signs, this may create illusion of people suddenly "snapping".

Firearms restrictions actually make little difference to these people. Since they plan in advance, they also plan for acquiring suitable weapons for the job.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Preventing psycopaths from obtaining guns is NOT a violation of any right, for feths sake! If someone proves mentally unstable, DO NOT hand him a gun.... this is soooo simple. Again, (I've already said that half a dozen times) it works where I live. It works really well. There IS a law here, and a similar one in america would possibly have stopped this guy (or at least he'd have been forced to use something less dangerous, not a rifle)

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Plenty of school shootings and mass murders in Europe in recent years. Including Germany...

Let's not use stereotypes and labels that might offend members of the board. Thanks
--AgeOfEgos

I don't really understand what the point was. Go to a mall. Kill some decadent rich people. An elementary school? Why? What was he thinking? What rational person kills children, the most innocent and taintless things in existence?

Why did he want to kill his mother? I can't read about this. It's too insane.

Backfire wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Here's a large difference though:

The majority of these kinds of shootings are not akin to the Norway shootings. They are not done in a methodical, planned manner despite the appearance to us that they are because the shooter brings multiple guns.
The only "plan" these people have is to inflict as much damage as possible before they shuffle off this mortal coil. They acquire guns and intend to use them, no plan beyond that.

The "nutjobs who feel a sudden urge to kill and have to go to the next street corner to buy a gun" are usually people with very little in the way of run-ins with the police and thus are able to legally acquire guns.

There are no "nutjobs who feel sudden urge to kill". People don't "snap", it's a myth. Events like this ALWAYS are preceded by long-term psychical problems and developing psychosis. And they are always planned in advance, sometimes years, just like the Norway guy. However, as these people are often relative loners, it's sometimes difficult to detect the warning signs, this may create illusion of people suddenly "snapping".

Firearms restrictions actually make little difference to these people. Since they plan in advance, they also plan for acquiring suitable weapons for the job.

They DO "snap" in a way.... sure, they all have had severe problems in the past.... but the actual shooting is often done on "short notice". They won't plan it the way this guy in Norway did. He thought he was on a fething crusade, these nutjobs simply want to inflict paint and death, NAO.

Backfire wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMerlin wrote:

Preventing psycopaths from obtaining guns is NOT a violation of any right, for feths sake! If someone proves mentally unstable, DO NOT hand him a gun.... this is soooo simple. Again, (I've already said that half a dozen times) it works where I live. It works really well. There IS a law here, and a similar one in america would possibly have stopped this guy (or at least he'd have been forced to use something less dangerous, not a rifle)

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid. Plenty of school shootings and mass murders in Europe in recent years. Including Germany...

Never with anything more than a pistol. And one killer in Germany stole the gun from his fathers gun safe.... so..... how likeley is that going to happen again, the father having a gun safe (there are VERY few gun owners here) compared to the shootings in the US (how many have there been in 2012 so far?...) where the killer literally just has to go to the next street corner to buy a gun. That is simply. Not. Posible. in Germany. Face it, restrictions DO save lives. And anyway, why would you care? Are you a psycho? No? then you can still buy a gun, right? Nobody want to stop YOU, dude.

So latest news:

- the Bushmaster (aka: the semi-automatic "assault" rifle) was in the car and apparently not used.
- the guns were legally purchased and legally owned. They were purchased by the mother it seems. So even if the son was certified crazy it would have done nothing to stop the sales of the weapons, unless we want to get into not allowing family members if crazy people owning guns.
- so that would shift the focus towards responsible gun ownership. Although I can't say that I would be concerned with a 20 year old family member having access to my guns. If that person had other issues I know about then that might be a different story.

Very sad news indeed

 MrMerlin wrote:

They DO "snap" in a way.... sure, they all have had severe problems in the past.... but the actual shooting is often done on "short notice". They won't plan it the way this guy in Norway did. He thought he was on a fething crusade, these nutjobs simply want to inflict paint and death, NAO.

You are simply completely wrong here. School shooters have been excessively profiled. All they planned their acts meticulously. Same for most other spree killers. Columbine guys planned for months. Ditto for Virginia Tech guy, or Finnish school shooters.

 MrMerlin wrote:

Never with anything more than a pistol. And one killer in Germany stole the gun from his fathers gun safe.... so..... how likeley is that going to happen again, the father having a gun safe (there are VERY few gun owners here) compared to the shootings in the US (how many have there been in 2012 so far?...)

There are LOTS of gun owners in Germany. In fact in many ways, German gun laws are less severe than in some US states or cities. And yes, semi-automatic rifles are very common in most European countries. Heck, some countries hand them over for Army reservists.

Backfire wrote:

 MrMerlin wrote:

They DO "snap" in a way.... sure, they all have had severe problems in the past.... but the actual shooting is often done on "short notice". They won't plan it the way this guy in Norway did. He thought he was on a fething crusade, these nutjobs simply want to inflict paint and death, NAO.

You are simply completely wrong here. School shooters have been excessively profiled. All they planned their acts meticulously. Same for most other spree killers. Columbine guys planned for months. Ditto for Virginia Tech guy, or Finnish school shooters.

The Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters are considered by many to be the exceptions, not the rule.

They "planned their acts meticulously" because for them it was not a "snap" decision.
Most other "spree killers" do not fall within the same vein. The only comparison is that both categories plan to kill more than one person.

Good to know that he didn't use the AR. I would literally cry if I read about another maniac going on a killing spree with a "military assault rifle".

This Modern World said it almost 2 years ago.

How many times does this comic need to get linked? The last time I saw it get posted relevantly (on another forum) was a whole 2 weeks ago.

Oh, and China was mentioned early on in this thread. Another school, another attacker. 22 wounded by a knife attack. 22 wounded vs 26 dead. I know which one I'd prefer.

 MrMerlin wrote:

They DO "snap" in a way.... sure, they all have had severe problems in the past.... but the actual shooting is often done on "short notice". They won't plan it the way this guy in Norway did. He thought he was on a fething crusade, these nutjobs simply want to inflict paint and death, NAO.

They won't plan? Why not? The aurora guy felt he had a mission. He had a plan. How long did he have it? I don't know. Can you inside their heads?

 MrMerlin wrote:

Never with anything more than a pistol. And one killer in Germany stole the gun from his fathers gun safe.... so..... how likeley is that going to happen again, the father having a gun safe (there are VERY few gun owners here) compared to the shootings in the US (how many have there been in 2012 so far?...) where the killer literally just has to go to the next street corner to buy a gun. That is simply. Not. Posible. in Germany. Face it, restrictions DO save lives. And anyway, why would you care? Are you a psycho? No? then you can still buy a gun, right? Nobody want to stop YOU, dude.

A pistol is plent scary. Fires a bullet as well as the rest of them, sometimes better.
Germany has some of the strictest gun laws around and have never really had a period of high gun ownership. Our two countries are not the same.

You can't go to the street corner to buy a gun. It takes time, depending on who you are. Does the system need improvement? Yes. I totally support psychological evaluations for gun owners. It is difficult to get a conceal and carry permit, which is what would be most useful in these situations. Furthermore(from my experience) teachers even with a conceal and carry permit aren't allowed to have a weapon on campus.

Suicide rates are going up. We really need better mental health care.

Not that anything is going to change.