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2012/12/15 18:13:21
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
I'm not going to comment any more about this topic - I get drawn into arguments like this too easily and I generally spurt much that I eventually wish I didn't. So I'm going to back out slowly.
2012/12/15 18:34:08
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
reds8n wrote: Well done, now follow the part of the thread where it was stated that automatic weapons were far too expensive for normal people to buy.
Fundamentally there is something wrong when a weapon of war can and does exchange hands for that sort of sum.
I think you're being misled a bit about the ease of the process of picking up a pre-1986 select fire weapon.
Say it's prospectively sold to me for only one dollar. Fair enough. It will not happen, ever, but let's say for the sake of argument it does. I still...
Have to get an ATF Form 4 signed by my local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer, usually the local county sheriff). He's not compelled to sign it.
Obtain approval from the ATF, who do their own criminal background check, perhaps using the submitted photographs and full fingerprints that I'm required to provide and which they keep registered with the gun afterward.
Pay for the tax stamp.
Wait the three to six months for this all to be approved.
The notion that you can walk into your local sporting goods store and walk out with a brand new machine gun for $500 is quite incorrect. It requires an extensive amount of time and money, and you're thoroughly investigated.
Also the listings that RedS8N was talking about aren't legal weapons for civilian transfer. So....... bit of a red herring actually.
Nothing boosts newspaper sales like a bunch of dead children, huh? For feths sake, they should just stop reporting things like this so extensiveley, becuase who knows, some other feth-head might get ideas.... that has happened before....
That's my old man's theory. That psycho X gets the idea to go out and do evil. Psycho Y's chilling on the couch at home and sees what Psycho X did and the mass coverage makes the gears in Y's head turn "Hey! I could do that!"
d-usa wrote: Going to have to unfriend some people on Facebook. Tired of reading crap about how the government is able to feed autistic kids psychotropic medications to make him comply and then has black ops agents shoot all the kids and make the autistic kid shoot himself so that the government can disarm us and send the UN troops to America blah blah blah...
Utter madness.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
BARTLESVILLE — An 18-year-old Bartlesville High School student was arrested early Friday after police uncovered an alleged school-shooting massacre plot.
Sammie Eaglebear Chavez attempted to recruit students in the school cafeteria on Wednesday to help him carry out a massive school shooting and bombing plot, police allege in a court affidavit.
Prosecutors charged Chavez later Friday with planning, attempting or conspiring to perform an act of violence. District Judge Curtis DeLapp set Chavez’s bail at $1 million.
The charge says Chavez intended to cause serious bodily harm or death to other students.
“Sammie tried to recruit other students to assist him with carrying out a plan to lure students into the school auditorium where he planned to begin shooting them after chaining the doors shut,” Bartlesville Police Lt. Kevin Ickleberry wrote in the affidavit, which was filed in Washington County District Court.
“He also told them that if the students assisting him did not do what they were supposed to do, he would not hesitate to kill them and/or himself.”
Police were notified of the plot Thursday afternoon by school administrators who had been told of the alleged plan by another student, the affidavit states. Chavez had told the students he would place bombs by the auditorium doors and that when police arrived, he would detonate them.
As police conducted their investigation, officers learned that Chavez had told a teacher last week that he’d bought a Colt .45 gun and had spent the weekend shooting it, the affidavit says.
Chavez, who had been attempting to obtain a map or diagram of the high school facilities, had been using a school computer to search for information on a Marlin Model 99M — a .22-caliber rifle on a machine gun platform, the affidavit states.
Students had witnessed Chavez researching the Columbine High School massacre and reading online letters that were written in the aftermath of the April 1999 shooting, which killed 12 students and a teacher in Littleton, Colo, as well as the two shooters. A student also had witnessed Chavez looking at a website on how to build pipe bombs, the affidavit states.
Bartlesville Public Schools issued two alerts to parents on Friday, stating that administrators were informed of a rumor in which a current student “was planning to potentially harm students and staff at Bartlesville High School. School administrators took the information extremely seriously and informed the Bartlesville Police Department of the alleged plan.”
Chavez was absent from classes on Thursday as school officials and police were investigating the rumor. Superintendent Gary Quinn applauded the work by school administrators in assuring that students “were never in harm’s way.”
“I am proud of our administrative personnel who took what started out as an unsubstantiated rumor and, through their diligent work and exhaustive investigation, were able to determine there could be a future threat,” Quinn said.
“We appreciate the excellent relationship we have with our local law enforcement and their swift response to the information we provided them. We will always put the safety of the students of the Bartlesville Public School District first and foremost.”
Police arrested Chavez at his home in the 100 block of Southwest Adeline Avenue about 4:50 a.m. Friday on a warrant signed by Special Judge John Gerkin, Bartlesville Police Capt. Jay Hastings said.
Chavez, who was arraigned Friday afternoon in court, is in the Washington County Detention Center. As a condition of his bond, DeLapp ordered Chavez to stay away from Bartlesville schools and from weapons.
In a statement released Friday, Quinn said the school district is working in cooperation with the Bartlesville Police Department and “will make every effort to fully investigate and take every precaution to make the Bartlesville Public School District a safe environment for everyone.”
The administration is urging students and others to inform school administrators or police of any rumors of any potentially harmful act.
.. bloody hell. Still score one for the authorities here at least.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2012/12/15 18:36:49
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
whembly wrote: the isreali do arm their teachers, however... but, not too keen on that idea).
.
I think you'll find that this is something of.. let's be generous... an internet myth.
TEL AVIV (JTA) -- First-time visitors to Israel might be taken aback to see groups of armed teenagers walking through a city plaza on a weeknight, or surprised to walk into a public bathroom and see an M-16 laying across the sinks as a soldier washes his face.
But guns are ubiquitous in Israel, where most 18-year-olds are drafted into the army after high school.
However, once those soldiers finish their service two or three years later, they are subject to civilian gun control regulations that are much stricter than American laws.
In fact, it’s pretty much impossible for civilians who live in Israel to acquire an arsenal of weaponry of the sort used by the alleged shooter in last week’s massacre in Aurora, Colo. James E. Holmes, who is accused of killing 12 people and wounding 58 in the Aurora movie theater, legally bought the firearms he used, according to reports, including a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic pistol and a 12-gauge shotgun. Leading up to the shooting, Holmes had bought thousands of bullets online.
In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.
Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.
Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol.
In addition, residents of West Bank settlements, and those who work there, may own pistols for self-defense.
Other groups of Israelis, such as professional hunters and sharpshooters, or people transporting dangerous goods, may also own firearms. And Israelis may keep unloaded guns they inherited or received as a gift.
Lior Nedivi, a former police officer, said that despite Israel’s militarized society, neither soldiers nor veterans engage in extensive gun violence because 18-year-olds are tested for mental and physical fitness before being drafted.
In 2008, 143 people in Israel died from firearms, according to the website gunpolicy.org.
“They don’t recruit everyone,” said Nedivi, who runs a company called Advanced Forensic Science Services. “If you are a person with a record of violence, you will be discharged.”
Nedivi favors allowing private gun ownership with tight regulations, noting that armed civilians have used their guns to stop terrorists during attacks.
He said that gun massacres don’t occur in Israel because gun owners here undergo more comprehensive psychological screenings than do U.S. gun owners.
“It’s not guns that kill, it’s people that kill,” Nedivi said. “If this person in Colorado will be screened now, they will say he has mental problems. In Israel, most people like this don’t get a chance to get a gun.”
Gun violence does still occur in Israel, though gun control is not a sensitive political issue.
“We think the society is over-armed,” said Smadar Ben-Natan, a lawyer who co-heads Gun-Free Kitchen Tables, an Israeli coalition to end domestic gun violence. “There are too many weapons going around. There is no justification that these weapons go home and are present in civilian surroundings.”
Rather than lobbying for new laws, Gun-Free Kitchen Tables is pushing for the enforcement of current regulations, which require security guards to leave their weapons in their workplace. Ben-Natan said private security companies often do not abide by the law.
“The private police companies offer an illusion of security,” Ben-Natan said. “They’re not accountable in terms of the public interest. They don’t bear the cost of the precautions that need to be in place. The people that pay this price are the women and family members who get shot.”
For soldiers who take their weapons home on weekends and off-nights, the rule is they must be on their person at all times or under double-locks if left at home.
I assume it's perhaps people hearing about West Bank settlers and thinking applies to the whole country ?
It is a bit odd when you go there.
I recall seeing a woman, baby in a front sling ( papoose is it ?) full military camo gear, pistol holstered at side doing her weekly shopping. Oddest thing we saw was the groups of soldiers hitch-hiking, again in full gear and with rifles. Tour guide/driver told us they get short leave passes and are popular with drivers as if you're carrying soldiers you can't get done for speeding as they can claim " emergency" and the police let you on your way.
I guess it's also a pretty effective deterent against car-jacking and so on as well.
The photos from Israel I always find interesting are female soldiers hitting the beach in the latest swimwear... with their M-4s.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
hotsauceman1 wrote: Quite frankly it doesnt matter, We have the 2nd amendment, Which is only one step away from the first. If we take away one amendment to the bill of rights, we are close to taking them all.
The Bill of Rights was written over 200 years ago in the context of a country that had just declared independence from the British Empire. I seriously don't get why Americans lose sleep over the idea of it being changed.
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
2012/12/15 18:39:04
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Because, Thats the way we are. From the second amendment being changed, how long is it until they decide that we no longer have a right to a trial by jury? Or that we have to let soldiers occupy our homes.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2012/12/15 18:39:05
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
BARTLESVILLE — An 18-year-old Bartlesville High School student was arrested early Friday after police uncovered an alleged school-shooting massacre plot.
Sammie Eaglebear Chavez attempted to recruit students in the school cafeteria on Wednesday to help him carry out a massive school shooting and bombing plot, police allege in a court affidavit.
Prosecutors charged Chavez later Friday with planning, attempting or conspiring to perform an act of violence. District Judge Curtis DeLapp set Chavez’s bail at $1 million.
The charge says Chavez intended to cause serious bodily harm or death to other students.
“Sammie tried to recruit other students to assist him with carrying out a plan to lure students into the school auditorium where he planned to begin shooting them after chaining the doors shut,” Bartlesville Police Lt. Kevin Ickleberry wrote in the affidavit, which was filed in Washington County District Court.
“He also told them that if the students assisting him did not do what they were supposed to do, he would not hesitate to kill them and/or himself.”
Police were notified of the plot Thursday afternoon by school administrators who had been told of the alleged plan by another student, the affidavit states. Chavez had told the students he would place bombs by the auditorium doors and that when police arrived, he would detonate them.
As police conducted their investigation, officers learned that Chavez had told a teacher last week that he’d bought a Colt .45 gun and had spent the weekend shooting it, the affidavit says.
Chavez, who had been attempting to obtain a map or diagram of the high school facilities, had been using a school computer to search for information on a Marlin Model 99M — a .22-caliber rifle on a machine gun platform, the affidavit states.
Students had witnessed Chavez researching the Columbine High School massacre and reading online letters that were written in the aftermath of the April 1999 shooting, which killed 12 students and a teacher in Littleton, Colo, as well as the two shooters. A student also had witnessed Chavez looking at a website on how to build pipe bombs, the affidavit states.
Bartlesville Public Schools issued two alerts to parents on Friday, stating that administrators were informed of a rumor in which a current student “was planning to potentially harm students and staff at Bartlesville High School. School administrators took the information extremely seriously and informed the Bartlesville Police Department of the alleged plan.”
Chavez was absent from classes on Thursday as school officials and police were investigating the rumor. Superintendent Gary Quinn applauded the work by school administrators in assuring that students “were never in harm’s way.”
“I am proud of our administrative personnel who took what started out as an unsubstantiated rumor and, through their diligent work and exhaustive investigation, were able to determine there could be a future threat,” Quinn said.
“We appreciate the excellent relationship we have with our local law enforcement and their swift response to the information we provided them. We will always put the safety of the students of the Bartlesville Public School District first and foremost.”
Police arrested Chavez at his home in the 100 block of Southwest Adeline Avenue about 4:50 a.m. Friday on a warrant signed by Special Judge John Gerkin, Bartlesville Police Capt. Jay Hastings said.
Chavez, who was arraigned Friday afternoon in court, is in the Washington County Detention Center. As a condition of his bond, DeLapp ordered Chavez to stay away from Bartlesville schools and from weapons.
In a statement released Friday, Quinn said the school district is working in cooperation with the Bartlesville Police Department and “will make every effort to fully investigate and take every precaution to make the Bartlesville Public School District a safe environment for everyone.”
The administration is urging students and others to inform school administrators or police of any rumors of any potentially harmful act.
.. bloody hell. Still score one for the authorities here at least.
Yeah props to the teachers for catching that one, and to the kids who reported it. Someone smack that judge for letting the nutcase out on bond though.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Also the listings that RedS8N was talking about aren't legal weapons for civilian transfer. So....... bit of a red herring actually.
Yeah, I didn't bother to check them, but something didn't' sound quite right, considering a POS MAC-11 will go for $4K+.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that the gun laws - or, more specifically, the hoops you have to jump through to get a firearm - can be pretty arcane to the non-initiated. Before I decided I wanted to get a gun in civilian life, I honestly had no idea of the process.
Combine that with the fact that the media is often wildly incorrect about everything ranging from legislation to terminology - I've seen several reports from serious journalism outlets claiming that this donkeycave used "assault weapons" and editorials from more that say this shows why we need to ban automatic weapons - and you end up with a public that, partly through no fault of its own, doesn't know up from down on the issue.
2012/12/15 18:40:45
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
hotsauceman1 wrote: Because, Thats the way we are. From the second amendment being changed, how long is it until they decide that we no longer have a right to a trial by jury? Or that we have to let soldiers occupy our homes.
You realize that we already invalidates one of the ammendments, and passed quite a few that changes sections of the actual constitution?
2012/12/15 18:47:05
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Sturmtruppen wrote: The Bill of Rights was written over 200 years ago in the context of a country that had just declared independence from the British Empire. I seriously don't get why Americans lose sleep over the idea of it being changed.
Because I don't believe it would change anything at this point. Those hundreds of millions of guns are not going anywhere, and I'd personally like the opportunity to do more than hide or try to time a crazy-ass rush right if some madman ever walks into my office or tries any number of other nefarious things with a gun of his own.
I know more than a few sincere, dedicated people who, had they been at that school yesterday, may well have died themselves, but would have done so on a pile of their own spent brass, and focused every ounce of their will onto ensuring this Lanza kid did the exact same thing, only a lot sooner.
2012/12/15 18:47:10
Subject: Re:Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Also the listings that RedS8N was talking about aren't legal weapons for civilian transfer. So....... bit of a red herring actually.
Yeah, I didn't bother to check them, but something didn't' sound quite right, considering a POS MAC-11 will go for $4K+.
Honestly, I think part of the problem is that the gun laws - or, more specifically, the hoops you have to jump through to get a firearm - can be pretty arcane to the non-initiated. Before I decided I wanted to get a gun in civilian life, I honestly had no idea of the process.
Combine that with the fact that the media is often wildly incorrect about everything ranging from legislation to terminology - I've seen several reports from serious journalism outlets claiming that this donkeycave used "assault weapons" and editorials from more that say this shows why we need to ban automatic weapons - and you end up with a public that, partly through no fault of its own, doesn't know up from down on the issue.
Well I tried to explain the basics a couple pages ago, but it seems everyone ignored it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/15 18:47:41
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: Guns don't kill people, people kill people? That is, to put it bluntly, poppycock. Try committing an act like this with a kitchen knife. It's a lot harder (I would imagine, I haven't actually tried this myself)!
You do realize that there was a mass stabbing at a Chinese elementary school right before you posted this, right?
2012/12/15 19:06:30
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
This thread really makes me sad the more I skim it and think about the kids and teachers that were murdered.
I had a best night ever with my 6 year old the night before this happened by doing a daddy- daughter date and going out to see the Christmas lights, buy some presents, and going to eat at a restaurant.
She was twirling in the snow under the lights, running from window to window, and listening to an outdoor concert with me.
I have a date to take out my 8 year old this coming week and she is extremely excited for the same adventure her little sister had.
Why someone would willingly hurt that kind of innocence and snuff it out I have no idea.
2012/12/15 19:47:57
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
I think I'll leave this thread now.... we're basically just repeating the same arguments over and over again, like we've done in so many threads before, without ever really agreeing on anything. I think the US needs strickter gun laws, others think they don't, and we're mostly wasting our time, repeating ourselves again and again.
Seaward wrote: I'd posit that evil does in fact exist in the world, but that's an opinion that's already been smacked down in this thread.
Actually, "evil" was defined by a number of WWII allied, (mainly US army), psychologists as 'a lack of empanthy towards other individuals'.
It was a common trait seen in many of the worst Nazi war criminals, expecially those who carried out the worst atrocities, and it's a trait that is very common amongst many mass murderers & spree killers who have turned out to be sociopaths, psychopaths or violent sadists.
A number of these criminals were turned into 'lost causes' either through childhood trauma such as horrific abuse or vindictive bullying. But some are simply born bad for reasons doctors & psychologists still can't understand.
I'd wager eating my hat that eventually, criminal psychologists will find that this shooter had at last one or two traits of the above.
Identifying the symptoms however is incredibly difficult, not to mention that the mental health community in general is too lax and liberal on its adamant belief that you can't label a child as a sociopath.
2012/12/15 21:30:29
Subject: Connecticut elementary school shooter shot dead [updated first post]
Well I don't think we'll ever find out if this particular shooter had those symptoms... not for sure. His brains being scattered against a wall has that effect.
On a side note from the Oregon shooting it turns out that a Concealed Carry Permit holder confronted the gunman and lead to his prompt suicide.
filbert wrote:We had this same discussion, with the same pro and anti gun arguments made just a few months ago with the last mass shooting. At what point do all you pro-gun people stop and think that something might be wrong here?
Never. Much like the number of people killed by cars each year doesn't keep us from driving. It's the cost of having guns and in your utopian future without them I suppose they'll have to outlaw knives, kabab sticks, and bats when they get used in a crime.
The scale and frequency of these mass shootings occur in the USA on a scale found nowhere else in the world.
If you'd stuck to frequency you'd have been fine. As far as scale is concerned it's found in plenty of places in the world. Lets pick a name out the hat: Norway. I'm sure that was a shock.
How many will it take before the US as a nation has a frank and open debate about gun control, ownership and usage?
There's been a continuous debate and the current system is a result. As I am unable to drive a tank with a working gun and procure sarin gas it appears the system is not without restriction.
The pro-gun lobby will of course continue to point to Israel and Switzerland as examples of countries that have high gun ownership but low firearm deaths while glibly passing over the myriad differences (and to be honest, I suspect your average Israeli probably has other targets in mind rather than his/her fellow Israeli).
That would be interesting considering Israel has about the same proliferation of privately owned firearms as the UK, and I can't remember the last time anyone considered that number "high".
How many young Americans have to die to firearms before you admit that something needs to be done?
The number you are looking for here is an 8 sideways. Bad things happen and people die. It's the human condition. Our society has decided that gun ownership is a right, yours more or less went the other way. And yet somehow America isn't a dystopian wasteland. In fact you and I live probably at the same level of comfort and safety daily.
Ratbarf wrote:
Why have most of these tragedies only occurred recently? (Columbine was really the start)
Well the school ones I think are almost certainly Columbine inspired. (Though I think Ecole Polytechnic was the first.) I think it's mostly just copycat killings.
Erfurt, Coburg, Rotz, Emsdetten,Winnenden. I'm not a math wizard but that's more than 2.
WarOne wrote:
August 24, 2012: Jeffrey Johnson shot a former coworker and injured nine more people before being shot and killed by police. The shooting occurred near New York's Empire State Building during rush hour.
I read this today on the AP, and a couple jumped out at me. This was the best one; I guess it's hard to justify it as a mass shooting if you have to write, "August 24, 2012: Jeffrey Johnson shot a former coworker. Causing the NYPD to fire wildly into a crowd injured nine more people near New York's Empire State Building during rush hour."
reds8n wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote: You can though! We can all get automatic weapons... pursuant to state law and having enough money that dropping 20k+ isn't a big deal.
from the link you posted
DID YOU KNOW?? We have several other machine guns being auctioned for only 1 dollar with no reserve.
..think that's probably well within the budget of even a hard up wanna be psycho.
I don't suppose you actually looked at the going rates of those $1 NR auctions?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/15 21:48:52
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
