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As far as i am aware, PERSONAL use recasting is legal, much like copying parts of a book again for personal use. So since recasting seems to be a tabu word i want to hear your opinions.

This is strictly for PERSONAL use, no selling no gray area, you do it for your use and that is it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be nice if those that do have an issue, explain what that issue is?.


I dont, the person doing this is not braking the law and not making a profit out of it, how he spends his money is no concern of mine, and the models (if well done) are basically the same as mine, so WYSIWYG is not an issue.

xxvaderxx wrote:
the person doing this is not braking the law

In many countries that statement is at least a grey area if not outright false.

Whilst technically illegal in many countries, I have recast small bits that were missing from models I have bought second hand rather than try to track down someone selling them online (such as small bits on vehicles that often snap off but there are multiples of).

I don't think that recasting stuff "just to have more" of it is acceptable though. If you are recasting entire models and so on, you are going too far.

rigeld2 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
the person doing this is not braking the law

In many countries that statement is at least a grey area if not outright false.

While i am certainly no lawyer, and i can not speak for all countries, i would be surprised if there is a law that would tell me what i can or can not do with something i buy when i am doing it for my self. Again this is personal use, no selling no nothing.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

I don't think that recasting stuff "just to have more" of it is acceptable though. If you are recasting entire models and so on, you are going too far.

Ok , thats how you feel, now why?. (if this sounds belligerent i apologize before hand, i dont mean it that way i mean it as in what are your reasons to feel that way)

Define "personal use", please.

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
Define "personal use", please.

You want to play say 4 leman ruses buy one, make molds for the other 3. When you are bored those 3 are NOT sold, NOR you charge for a cloning service making money out of it. You do ONLY what you need for YOUR gaming needs.

My Gaming Needs need more money... Best sell those copies that i got for free...


PROFIT!

I‘ve re-casted hundreds of models and bitz. My Tyranid army? I’m not going to buy 20+ Tyranid Warriors to convert into Hive Guard. I’ll simply cast as many duplicates as I desire. When painted up to enough of a standard – you can not tell the difference. I’ve not had one player notice that any of my Tyranids are re-casted. If I do not tell anyone – no on would care or notice.

My new Circle army for Hordes? I re-casted most of the constructs in my list. I’ve also supported my FLGS and shelled out $400+ there this month on WM/Hordes. Hordes does not include bitz to use for extra terrain/add ons – I needed more bitz. The entire army is based walking over crumbling and ruined recasts of sentry stones and other ruined constructs. I also have a good 30 sentry stones for a display board when I wish to make one.

Do I feel guilty? No, I have the ability to do so and I’ll actually paint the models up to a high quality. Am I going to recast Rhinos? No. A Tyranid Warrior’s Torso and Legs? Yes. I own thousands of dollars of Wargaming models, if I want to cast a few extra units – I will.


Edit: I will never sell my Tyranid army - too large/means to much to me.

 Bloodhorror wrote:
My Gaming Needs need more money... Best sell those copies that i got for free...

PROFIT!

I get more money on my you know that weird thing some of us have called "JOB", than i would going through the pain of selling cloned tanks for a few bucks. It is clearly stated in the OP this is strictly personal use ONLY.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
Define "personal use", please.

You want to play say 4 leman ruses buy one, make molds for the other 3. When you are bored those 3 are NOT sold, NOR you charge for a cloning service making money out of it. You do ONLY what you need for YOUR gaming needs.

Is'nt that illegal since you are still copying others work rather than buying the copyrighted product. Whether you sell it or not I don't *Think* it would be legal.

My issue is that too many people consider "personal use" to be "I should only have to pay once for a unit that I want ten of".

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Bloodhorror wrote:
My Gaming Needs need more money... Best sell those copies that i got for free...

PROFIT!

I get more money on my you know that weird thing some of us have called "JOB", than i would going through the pain of selling cloned tanks for a few bucks. It is clearly stated in the OP this is strictly personal use ONLY.

A Bit aggressive dude.... I'm just saying, Recasting is bad. Regardless of what your doing or why your doing it.

And a Cloned tank for a few bucks???
Please...

You Clone a Russ. Spray it black. Call it a basecoated Russ sell it for £20. Done.

Is using recasts in a game "personal use"?

 Kanluwen wrote:
My issue is that too many people consider "personal use" to be "I should only have to pay once for a unit that I want ten of".

But how many people can cast to a high quality and do so. I know a handful of people who cast for personal use. None of them spam out units/bitz. They duplicate required pieces for conversions/a unit. Most of my recasts still have original bitz of the models (ex. Tyranid Warrior arms/Head, but recasted Leg/Torso)

Also:

 Bloodhorror wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 Bloodhorror wrote:
My Gaming Needs need more money... Best sell those copies that i got for free...

PROFIT!

I get more money on my you know that weird thing some of us have called "JOB", than i would going through the pain of selling cloned tanks for a few bucks. It is clearly stated in the OP this is strictly personal use ONLY.

A Bit aggressive dude.... I'm just saying, Recasting is bad. Regardless of what your doing or why your doing it.

And a Cloned tank for a few bucks???
Please...

You Clone a Russ. Spray it black. Call it a basecoated Russ sell it for £20. Done.

It's fairly hard to close tanks. Show me a few pictures of correct/High Quality recasts of tanks

And has been said.


I bought a Baneblade, therefore i am entitled to another 9 of them!

 Bloodhorror wrote:
And has been said.


I bought a Baneblade, therefore i am entitled to another 9 of them!

Along with hours upon hours of time recasting them and the money spent on resin/tools. With salary pay - you could just buy a handful of them instead of spending that many hours making sub-par copies. When you work 40-50 hours a week, this is fairly unfeasiable to accomplish

All right then, baneblades not being the best example....

 blood lance wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
Define "personal use", please.

You want to play say 4 leman ruses buy one, make molds for the other 3. When you are bored those 3 are NOT sold, NOR you charge for a cloning service making money out of it. You do ONLY what you need for YOUR gaming needs.

Is'nt that illegal since you are still copying others work rather than buying the copyrighted product. Whether you sell it or not I don't *Think* it would be legal.

Actually the way i understand it, you providing it free or selling it to others is exactly what makes it or brake it. But i could be wrong, i am no lawyer.

 Bloodhorror wrote:

And has been said.


I bought a Baneblade, therefore i am entitled to another 9 of them!

First, i did say from the get go, that it was with the porpouse of getting multiples of the same.
Second, you are not getting 10 of them, you get 1 and 9 copies of inferior quality(heavier, more brittle, less detailed, so on) that work just fine for gaming porpouses in particular.

I recast bits for conversion, or bits of models that aren't in production any more. Examples..

- I made some souped up Suppression Shields for my Arbites, based on the original GW shield with extra stuff moulded on. I need ten, but don't want to buy ten sets and convert ten shields, doing all the work ten times. I will recast my two converted ones until I have enough.

- I converted some Arbites bikers from Scout bikers, and recast the heads and shoulder pads of metal Enforcers to use in the biker conversions. The other option was cutting up 5 metal Enforcers to get the heads and shoulder pads, which would have been a nightmare.

- I have a Squat army with 12 Exo Squat bodies, but only enough arms for 7 or 8. When I get around to building them, I'll be recasting some arms so that I can build all 12.

I think all of those are pretty fair uses of recasts. Would anyone have a problem? They're all quite labour intensive, and if I just wanted more models I'd rather just spend the money on more sets...

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I recast bits for conversion, or bits of models that aren't in production any more. Examples..

- I made some souped up Suppression Shields for my Arbites, based on the original GW shield with extra stuff moulded on. I need ten, but don't want to buy ten sets and convert ten shields, doing all the work ten times. I will recast my two converted ones until I have enough.

- I converted some Arbites bikers from Scout bikers, and recast the heads and shoulder pads of metal Enforcers to use in the biker conversions. The other option was cutting up 5 metal Enforcers to get the heads and shoulder pads, which would have been a nightmare.

- I have a Squat army with 12 Exo Squat bodies, but only enough arms for 7 or 8. When I get around to building them, I'll be recasting some arms so that I can build all 12.

I think all of those are pretty fair uses of recasts. Would anyone have a problem? They're all quite labour intensive, and if I just wanted more models I'd rather just spend the money on more sets...

To each their own, i rather enjoy the handicraft aspect of it. But yeah granted it does take a bit of time and effort to do it well.

xxvaderxx wrote:
While i am certainly no lawyer, and i can not speak for all countries, i would be surprised if there is a law that would tell me what i can or can not do with something i buy when i am doing it for my self. Again this is personal use, no selling no nothing.

You'll be surprised then, because a lot of countries do exactly that. For artistic works, you buy the physical item, but the right to reproduce it remains with the creator.

To my mind, whether or not I have an issue with recasting is kind of irrelevant... the laws of my country say that I'm not allowed to do it, so I don't.

I have a problem with it...

I attribute it to using proxies; in the sense of CCG proxies where you photo copy the card.

In a CCG a good deal of effort can go into seeking out and obtaining a rare card(s). The game IMO becomes cheapened when someone just photo copies the card. I feel as though my efforts to collect the card(s) has been for naught and that there is no point to collecting when you can just print out whatever card you desire.

Granted there's a huge difference; CCG vs. Miniatures, but I still feel as though the game has become cheapened. Where's the fairness in my spending a good deal of my hard earned money to procure the models for my army and my opponent just borrows a model or two and copies it 10 times over?

It's a personal choice of mine to not play against opponents who want to 'cheat the system' for lack of a better phrase and cheapen my gaming experience.

 insaniak wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
While i am certainly no lawyer, and i can not speak for all countries, i would be surprised if there is a law that would tell me what i can or can not do with something i buy when i am doing it for my self. Again this is personal use, no selling no nothing.

You'll be surprised then, because a lot of countries do exactly that. For artistic works, you buy the physical item, but the right to reproduce it remains with the creator.

To my mind, whether or not I have an issue with recasting is kind of irrelevant... the laws of my country say that I'm not allowed to do it, so I don't.

The right to reproduce it for what purpose?, if you are going to sell postcards, i certainly see why you should not be allowed, do you happen to have a link to the law in question?.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
I have a problem with it...

I attribute it to using proxies; in the sense of CCG proxies where you photo copy the card.

In a CCG a good deal of effort can go into seeking out and obtaining a rare card(s). The game IMO becomes cheapened when someone just photo copies the card. I feel as though my efforts to collect the card(s) has been for naught and that there is no point to collecting when you can just print out whatever card you desire.

Granted there's a huge difference; CCG vs. Miniatures, but I still feel as though the game has become cheapened. Where's the fairness in my spending a good deal of my hard earned money to procure the models for my army and my opponent just borrows a model or two and copies it 10 times over?

It's a personal choice of mine to not play against opponents who want to 'cheat the system' for lack of a better phrase and cheapen my gaming experience.

You said it, is this a CCG or Modeling hobby as GW is so fond of remind us?, casting has been part of the Modeling hobby since forever.

Sure, no problem here. Did it myself a few times already to get weapon options I'd otherwise have to buy from GW directly e.g. back when I still played WHFB, I had my halberds recasted a few times.

xxvaderxx wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
While i am certainly no lawyer, and i can not speak for all countries, i would be surprised if there is a law that would tell me what i can or can not do with something i buy when i am doing it for my self. Again this is personal use, no selling no nothing.

You'll be surprised then, because a lot of countries do exactly that. For artistic works, you buy the physical item, but the right to reproduce it remains with the creator.

To my mind, whether or not I have an issue with recasting is kind of irrelevant... the laws of my country say that I'm not allowed to do it, so I don't.

The right to reproduce it for what purpose?, if you are going to sell postcards, i certainly see why you should not be allowed, do you happen to have a link to the law in question?.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Argentina
If you don't own it (which that law says you don't) you can't legally reproduce it.

I think that no matter what argument is presented, the OP is going to feel it "does not apply" to him as he wants to do it anyways.

Lots of people don't actually know what "personal use" or "fair use' is.

Buying one item and making 10 copies is not 'personal use'.

Example of casting in a personal/fair use situation:

I buy a model. I want to paint it but I am not sure how best to do it. I cast 10 copies of the model. I then use those copies to practice painting and techniques. Once I am done doing my personal experiments, I destroy the 10 models I made and paint the original.

That is personal/fair use. Making copies simply to 'have more' is not protected in any western country. People falsely say it is, but they would be wrong if their country is Canada, US, Australia, UK or most of Europe.

Ability to control reproductions of copyrighted material lies with the copyright holder.

nkelsch wrote:
Lots of people don't actually know what "personal use" or "fair use' is.

Buying one item and making 10 copies is not 'personal use'.

Example of casting in a personal/fair use situation:

I buy a model. I want to paint it but I am not sure how best to do it. I cast 10 copies of the model. I then use those copies to practice painting and techniques. Once I am done doing my personal experiments, I destroy the 10 models I made and paint the original.

That is personal/fair use. Making copies simply to 'have more' is not protected in any western country. People falsely say it is, but they would be wrong if their country is Canada, US, Australia, UK or most of Europe.

Ability to control reproductions of copyrighted material lies with the copyright holder.

Okay but what happens if I do recast them? As I've stated above - I recast quite a bit

Are you going to hunt me down? What if I paint them to a high quality and the only way to tell if they're cast is breaking them/simple green the paint off? Will you call me out at a tournament for "Fake Models"?

rigeld2 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
While i am certainly no lawyer, and i can not speak for all countries, i would be surprised if there is a law that would tell me what i can or can not do with something i buy when i am doing it for my self. Again this is personal use, no selling no nothing.

You'll be surprised then, because a lot of countries do exactly that. For artistic works, you buy the physical item, but the right to reproduce it remains with the creator.

To my mind, whether or not I have an issue with recasting is kind of irrelevant... the laws of my country say that I'm not allowed to do it, so I don't.

The right to reproduce it for what purpose?, if you are going to sell postcards, i certainly see why you should not be allowed, do you happen to have a link to the law in question?.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_Argentina
If you don't own it (which that law says you don't) you can't legally reproduce it.

Technically speaking you are correct:
http://www.espaciosjuridicos.com.ar/datos/LEY/LEY11723.htm

How ever the "traditional" take on the law is to allow "indiscrimate" personal use, as long as one does not profit from it.
http://derechoinformatico.com.ar/el-derecho-de-autor-y-la-copia-para-uso-personal/
"Tradicionalmente, se admitió como una limitación al derecho de autor la copia de obras aisladas o parte de estas para uso exclusivo del copista, no obstante representar una pérdida para el creador de la obra."
Not so roughly translated to:
Traditionally, it has been admited as a limitation to author rights/copy right (i guess would be the translation) the copy of isolated works or parts of it for exclusive use of the copping party (meaning no selling, profiting so on), regardless of it representing a loss to the creator.


The way it describes it in the article (second link), which i imagine does apply to most of the world, is that the law is from a time when having the means to reproduce something was the sole thing covered under the law, and those means where simply not available to particulars, hence an author could never benefit from the production of his work unless he went through someone owning a factory. That put the factory owner in a position of power, exacerbated by the fact that there was no such thing as ip law, thus he could do what ever he wanted.
Now days things are different, while the law it self has not changed, the use it is given here is to regulate the commercial use of the author works, not the particulars. But certainly each country has its own way of doing things.

 Auxellion wrote:
Okay but what happens if I do recast them?

Then if that is against the law in your country, you have broken the law. Congrats.

Chances are in most cases nothing will ever happen as a result, particularly if you don't go around telling people you're doing it. There are certainly no copyright police going around checking people's miniature collections for counterfeits. Hell, there are any number of laws in most countries that you can break (if you are so inclined) with little or no chance of getting caught or with no real repercussions if you do.

If a low likelihood of getting in trouble for it is sufficient reason for you to ignore the law, that's entirely up to you.


For myself, I've found that as I got older, and started seeing the point of protecting the rights of the artist over me just having what I want when I want it, the law seemed a little less silly. It's fairly toothless if you're just reproducing for personal use... but it's about the ideal behind the law, not the law itself.