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TA=Troops Alpha
TD=Troops Delta
FA=Fast Attack Alpha

TA.) Abaddon, 7 chosen, 5 flamers, LandRaider, dirge caster [651]

TB.) 8 Chosen, 2 melta, 3 plasma, power weapon, mark of slaanesh, icon of excess, rhino [310]

TC.) 8 Chosen, 2 melta, 3 plasma, power weapon, mark of slaanesh, icon of excess, rhino [310]

TD.) 8 Chosen, 2 melta, 3 plasma, power weapon, mark of slaanesh, icon of excess, rhino [310]

FA.) Hell Drake [170]
total 1751pts.


I have been playing this for about 6 games and I am disappointed, but each time I had tweeked it to acomadate the last problem. I have reach this point where I think it would just be easier to play plague marines and epidemus. Last game, I realized I should not put Abaddon with a fearful group. I probably should never split up such a small group so they could get tarpited and picked offed. Power weapon on the Champ is useless since everything else strikes faster than Int5 or everything is AV13.

5 Chosen, 5 Plasma Guns, Rhino [200]

If anyone know any tricks you could do with Chosen then please let me know.

The problem is you've got the easiest army to de-mech imaginable with just 3 Rhino's, and none of your infantry have an invulnerable save. You've got no proper long range AT and by creating expensive tissue paper deathstars with multiple special weapons you end up with less firepower, not more. Look at it this way, maybe the Empire would have won if they had spent the huge amount of resources they wasted on the Deathstar on a huge fleet instead.

Yes chosen are awesome but sometimes it's better just to take normal CSM as they are that little bit cheaper. The problem that many people have with this new Codex is that everything is pretty balanced, I don't think people realize that sadly mono themed army doesn't work as well as we want it to. It's the reason that Thousand Sons armies aren't taken as much, sure AP3 is nice if you're facing only Space Marines, but that's not often the case and T-Sons cost almost 2X for a naked CSM but statistically they deal 3X as much damage to an opponent marine (.333 wounds per shot compared to .111) due to the AP3. That being said, their points wasted to kill ratio goes way down as soon as you hit 2+ armor, get into CC and against 5+ armor.

Basically what i'm trying to say is, treat your Chosen like a normal group of Space Marines, don't go overboard on toys, they are still only 1 wound each, Get some normal marines but play your chosen a bit more aggressively, feel free to get them into CC. Also you might want to try getting them Rage to give them 5 attacks on the charge (2 base, 2 for charging, 1 for pistol+cc weapon) otherwise MoS is really nice for that I5

Ok last thing, I swear to the lord i serve Absudrabel Vect, the other thing I would suggest is making your squads in groups of 10 to make the most of the Icon of Excess, (3 Icons for 24 models compared to 2 Icons for 20 models)

I wish you great luck

-Barry

yep I should just abandon Abaddon. Does anyone know a list where they use chosen as the core very well?

I wonder if I just tried to gut the squads to bare minimum.

Elite Alpha: Abaddon, 6 Terminators, Heavy Flamer, 3 Power Fists, 2 Power Sword, 1 Power Axe [465]

Troops Alpha: 5 Chosen, 5 Plasma guns, Rhino [200]
Troops Bravo: 5 Chosen, 5 Plasma guns, Rhino [200]
Troops Charlie: 5 Chosen, 5 Meltaguns, Rhino [175]
Troops Delta: 5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, 1 Flamer Rhino [170]

Fast Attack Alpha: Hell Drake [130]

Heavy Alpha: 3 obliterators [210]

Total 1500

After this I am just going to copy someone's Epidemus/ Plague Marine list and play that.

your second list is much stronger. you stopped trying to kit out every squad to cope with any threat and have instead specialised them.

with this many rhinos and chosen though, im assuming you are mostly driving towards the enemy into rapid fire range and unloading. i think you would be better off choosing heavy support and fast attack that keep pace with you.

oblits and helldrakes are awesome units, dont get me wrong, but your list is very much going to rely on a devastating first turn of shooting. the helldrake wont be there and oblits are versatile and tough, but have a low rate of fire.

i suggest one of:
a) bunch of nurgle bikers with melta/plasma to help focus down units/flank
b) raptors - similar role the the bikers. offers more bodies and bolt shots than the bikes. probably better tarpit too.
c) drop the drake and take 2 more oblits(squeeze 10 more pts somewhere). split into 1-2-2 units for split fire. gives you good long range fire support.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/495069.page#5084435

My changes looks like his army list. If this 2nd iteration is much stronger, then how bad was the first I posted? I swear I am going in circles with this Chosen list. First they were dying too quick so I added more bodies. I had many bodies but it was not enough so a feel no pain served as an additional save and allowed me to roll for ap3, and instant death. 2nd problem was, if I put all the melta in 2 squads then the opponent would go after them and eliminate my anti av14. So I was mixing meltas with plasmas.

that's why you need to mix Chosen with normal CSM, also you're spending a bit too much on they toys, try going with 3 special weapons instead of 5 and add some more bodies from those points

I wouldnt go chosen at that point level. Ur gonna need some support. Id go reg CSM MoN and plague marines, MoN bikers, MoN havocs, MoN oblits, heldrake, splash in some transports. maybe typhus with some zombies.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
I wouldnt go chosen at that point level. Ur gonna need some support. Id go reg CSM MoN and plague marines, MoN bikers, MoN havocs, MoN oblits, heldrake, splash in some transports. maybe typhus with some zombies.

In short, you would take an entirely different list with an entirely different feel and strategy. Everyone and there grandmother is doing the Typhus/Epidimius cheese, but that doesn't mean that the answer to everyone's problems is to go balls to the wall Nurgle. All this guy needs is to ease off the Chosen a little, bring in some bog-standard CSMs, maybe some AC havocs and he'll be golden.

I did say I might just abandon Abaddon. I was hoping that my Chosen armed with plasma guns could eliminate av11-13, T5-7, and 2+ armor with ease.Forcing Plague Marines to take 5+ fnp saves, and terminators to take their invul saves. It sucks when I fight termies with 4++ saves from their storm shields. That is 3 categories that my plasma guns can cover. However, I dont have enough points for destroying hordes and av14 easily.

I guess I will have to try and field regular marines 10 men strong. At what point value should I be playing Abaddon and Chosen core at? 2k, 3k?

It looks like if I want to compete against Plague/Epidimus cheese, I could field a few plague marines so they can leech off my opponents buff yet still cause problems against other armies. I dont understand how tally really works, so can some one post a link to the information?

rough list.

Lord, MoN, Sigil of Corruption, ?weapon?, (Chaos Gods, I miss the old daemon weapons)

7 PM, 2 Melta, Champ w/ PF, Rhino, Havoc Launcher [260]
7 PM, 2 Plasma, Champ w/ PF, Rhino, Havoc Launcher [270]
7 PM, 2 Flamer, Champ w/ PS, Rhino, Combi-Melta [238]

5 Chosen, 5 Plasma, Rhino [200]

Hell Drake [170]

3 Oblits, MoN [228]
5 Havocs, 4 AC (I want to actually use missle launchers with flak some day but I only have 2 missle launchers) [125]
Predator, Lascannon sponson [115]

gahh...it's too normal...just doesn't feel right

I like it. I would consider abaddon and friends at 2.5k

yeah i dont like it much either.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
a crack at 2500 pts

Abaddon, Land Raider
8 Chosen, MoS, IoE, 4 Flamer, 1 Melta gun (if the rules allowes me to have Abaddon joined a marked unit)

or 4 Termi, heavy flamer, 2 combi-melta, 1 combi-plasma, 2 power fists (marks? if I can give marks, it would still be MoS and IoE)

10 Chosen, 2 Melta guns, 3 Plasma, MoS, IoE, 2 P Sword, 1 powerfists. Rhino, dozer blade (champ can still go naked for all I care)

Spam as much as possible

Hell Drake for fast attack slots

3 Oblits for heavy slots

Filch wrote:


10 Chosen, 2 Melta guns, 3 Plasma, MoS, IoE, 2 P Sword, 1 powerfists. Rhino, dozer blade (champ can still go naked for all I care)

You can't really stick that many weapons in a squad of Chosen. You get 4 models that can take any special weapon OR power weapons OR Lightning Claws OR a plasma pistol (why would you ever?). You then get a 5th model that doesn't get power weapon options, but can take a heavy weapon OR a special weapon. Mixing and matching is generally not the way to go, since you want your entire unit to be able to focus on one job(the exception being Power Weapon based Chosen Squads, since you may want to throw in a couple Power Axes to deal with TEQs{Although, seriously, these guys should NEVER risk a fight with any squad of Storm Shield/Hammernators}). Here's a few examples of Chosen squads I run on occasion:

345 - 10 Chosen, 4 Power Weapons, Flamer, Power Weapon on the champ to get a 5th PW, MoS, IoV, Rhino + Dirge Caster
355 - 10 Chosen, 5 Plasma Guns, Combi-Plasma, MoS, IoE, Rhino
320 - 10 Chosen, 5 Meltas, Combi-Melta, MoS, IoV, Rhino

Expensive? Yes, but each unit is much stronger at it's given job. The Combi-Weapons are added insurance for those times a vehicle or a Termi squad NEEDS to die. The Close Combat squad I keep OUT of their Rhino, walking behind while a screen of Cultists keep the Rhino relatively safe 'til you can get your Chosen into charge distance and the Dirge Caster can work it's anti-Overwatch magic. The key here, is to make a unit of Chosen brutally efficient at one job instead of trying to make one squad do multiple jobs. It will overtax the units capabilities and leave them weaker as a whole. The Mark of Slaanesh ends up on nearly everything in my army, but I will tell you that having it on shooty Chosen is still great because that squad getting in their 20 attacks before most anything that charges them does wonders to keep them on the winning side of combat. Couple that with the Icon of Vengeance and they aren't going anywhere 'til they die or the opponent loses combat then gets Sweeping Advanced by the unit with higher initiative. I also reserve the Icon of Excess for Plasma Squads to help reduce deaths by Gets Hot.
Hope this helps with your list building.

Skincarver hit the nail on the head. Chosen are your special forces unit. They can be darn effective at killing whatever you want killed.

At 1750

Abaddon, Landraider, Dirge Caster; [500]
8 Chosen, 2 Power Weapons, 3 Flamer, [189]
(If Abaddon does confer fearless, then I forgo the Icon of Vengence. If Abaddon can join a marked squad then I chose MoS and get IoE)

5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, Rhino [165]

5 Chosen, 1 Missile Launcher [105]

5 Chosen, 1 Missle Launcher [105]

Hell Drake [170]

2 Obliterators [140]

5 Havocs, 4 AC [125]
----------------------------------1499
Defiler, combi-bolter [195] (Because I own these models)
10 Cultist [50] (BIOTM)
-----------------------------------
or
Hell Drake [170] (I dont have but will get my 2nd regardless)
Predator, Combi Bolter [80] (I have these and I regret buying)
-------------------------------------
or
5 Chosen, 3 Plasma Guns, 1 Meltagun [145] (I really want 4 Plasma Guns but I needed to drop 5 points)
5 Chosen, Missile Launcher [105]
--------------------------------------
or 5 Chosen, 4 Plasma Guns [150]
20 Cultists [100]

at 2k
Abaddon, Land Raider, Dirge Caster [500]
8 Chosen, 4 Pw, 1 Flamers [209]

5 Chosen, Missile Launchers [105]
5 Chosen, Missile Launchers [105]
5 Chosen, Missile Launchers [105]

5 Chosen, 4 Meltas, Rhinos [165]
5 Chosen, 4 Meltas, Rhinos [165]
(omg I wanna take Chosen with plasma guns but it is so expensive)

Helldrake [170] HAC
Helldrake [170] HAC

2 Oblitz, MoN [152]
2 Oblitz, MoN [152]
-------------------------------1998pts

At 2+k

Abaddon, Landraider, dirge caster [500]

8 Chosen, 4 Power Weapons (maybe all sword?), Flamer, Champ w/ pw, IoV [249]
(No marks since Abaddon cant join the unit according to RAW)

10 Chosen, 4 Power Weapons, Meltagun, Champ w/ pw, MoK, IoV, Rhino, Dirge Caster [345]
(using SkinCarver's idea)

2x 10 Chosen, 5 Plasma Guns, Combi Plasma, MoS, IoE, Rhino [355]

2x 10 Chosen, 5 Meltas, Combi Meltas, IoV, Rhino [310]

Hell Drake [170]
Hell Drake [170]

3 Obliterator, MoN [228]
3 Obliterator, MoN [228]
------------------------------------3220pt....is this even competative at 3k?

I would lose Abaddon unless you are playing a 2500 point list.

Go 2 Chosen with 5x Plasma. They can kill anything and can be poor man's anti-tank. Let your obliterators do the heavy work on vehicles. Meltas are just going to get killed. Take an HQ that allows units to infiltrate and your chosen can be setup to be in range.

I would not take the raider as that is a lot of points.

As an alternative 3 preds with lascannons could cover you for anti-tank cheaper than oblits but you lose the plasma cannons.

I would think about 2 chosen and then a termicide unit with combi-meltas and a chainfist... it is relatively cheap can be dropped in and provides you with anti-tank versus the AV 14 stuff.

At 1750 I would want 3 10-man CSM units... either 2 plasma or plasma and heavy weapon. If you sweat flyers add an ADL with quad gun or laser.

Adjusting to previous sugestion.

No abaddon or land raider.

Huron, [160]
9 Chosen, 5 flamers, IoV, Rhino [247] (never get into cc unless its just a few models that survived the bbq)

10 csm, plasmagun, ac, IoV [190]
10 csm, 2 melta, rhino [195]

10 csm, plasmagun, ac, IoV [190]
10 csm, 2 melts, rhino [195]

10 Cultists naked [50]

Helldrake [170]

Havocs, 4 AC [125]
predator, lascannon sponson [115]
Predator, lascannon sponson [115]

Reworking 2k list to get 40pts to upgrade 8 meltas to plasma

Abaddon, Landraider, Dirge Caster [500] (Abaddon will separate upon disembarking the Landraider from the Flaming Chosen [gay pun intended])
8 Chosen, 5 Flamers [169]

5 Chosen, Missile Launcher [105]
5 Chosen, Missile Launcher [105]
5 Chosen, Missile Launcher [105]

5 Chosen, 4 Plasma, Rhino [185]
5 Chosen, 4 Plasma, Rhino [185]

Hell Drake [170]
Hell Drake [170]

2 Oblitz, MoN [152]
2 Oblitz, MoN [152]


I have a feeling that the 1750 list is much stronger than the 2k list.

Off the wall brainstorm but using what i liked but did not work effectively

Abaddon, 3 Oblitz (God I want marks! its so bull that Abaddon cant join marked units, they need to have T5)
(Assault Cannon goodness! Twin-linked Plasma gun goodness! Plasma Cannon goodness when Abaddon seperates)
[475]

5 Chosen, 5 Flamers, Champ w/ Meltabomb, Rhino [155]
6 Chosen, 4 Plasma, Champ w/ Meltabomb [173]
6 Chosen, 4 Plasma, Champ w/ Meltabomb [173]
5 Chosen, 4 Melta, Rhino [165]
5 Chosen, 1 Missile Launcher [105]
5 Chosen, 1 Missile Launcher [105]

HellDrake [170]

Predator, lascan sponson [115]
Predator, Lascan sponson [115]

1750

Looks good now.

My suggestion would be to go MSU in Rhinos, and have a loadout like 5 chosen with 3 flamers and 1 lascannon or 3 flamers and 1 missile launcher.

5 chosen with 3 flamers and 1 missile launcher is actually a very flexible unit. You can keep far away and shoot, and you can take objectives. Its actually not to bad for attacking because 3 flamers is a fair amount of BBQ. Plus if they want to charge you, then they suffer autohits from the flamers as well. 5 chosen, with veteras of the long war, with 3 flamers and 1 missile launcher in a Rhino with bolter only costs 180 points. To get that same missile launcher with normal troops, you need at least 195 points.

So, go with 6 of these as your normal troops choices with Abaddon and you have a very flexible army who can close assault attack as well as stay back and shoot. 6 missile launchers from just troop choices even before adding fast attack, elite and heavy choices is pretty good. And it costs 1080 points. Not cheap, but that's just a bit over half of 2000 points, so you have lots more you can spend. (Of course, Abaddon costs 265 points, so you will have to scrimp and save a bit on the other choices).

Going with Abaddon and chosen means you have to get cheap fast attack/heavy/elite choices. There simply isn't enough points to get the maximum benefit from Abaddon and the chosen otherwise. So, go with cheap autocannon havocs for the heavy choices. Go with barebone terminators and put Abaddon in it (He is so powerful the rest are there just for excess wounds). Helldrakes are not cheap, so I would suggest going for 3 man bike squads with melta guns.

Maybe can go with this.

Abaddon - 265 pts
Deep strike with 4 termis, all combi plasmas, power axes, 1 power fist - 156 pts

5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts
5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts
5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts
5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts
5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts
5 Chosen, vets, 3 flamers, 1 missile launcher, in Rhino with havoc launcher - 187 pts

3 veteran bikes with 2 melta guns - 93

5 Havocs, vets, 4 autocannon - 120
5 Havocs, vets, 4 autocannon - 120
5 Havocs, vets, 4 autocannon - 120

You can now stand back and shoot the heck out of your opponent, with Abaddon deep striking in where ever you want to cause carnage. And once you have destroyed enough of your opponents army, you can take the Rhinos to capture objectives.

Shooting wise, you have 6 missile launchers, 6 havoc launchers, 12 autocannon shots each turn. So, that's 30 shots and 6 twin linked blasts. Anything that is armor 14, then you have to use Abaddon or your bikes with their melta guns and hope for the best. Alternatively, if you are worried about AV 14, then go with 6 lascannons instead of 6 missile launchers.

I like where you are going with this, but i need 13 flamers to get this to work.

I can find squads of devastators with 4 missile launchers for $15.

No were can I find more than 2 flamers in a tac squad that still sells for $15. I've gotta spend roughly $30 to just get 10 flamers with no bodies.

I do have 6 rhinos,6 havoc launchers, 2 Missile launchers, 5 Flamers, 5 autocannon (I have 18 imperial guard autocannon to convert to chaos space marine use and possibly still enough for a quad gun for an improvised aegis defense line)

I have jetpacks, but no bikes. I forget if I could get 5 raptors with 2 meltas for 93 points or less. Or am I getting bikes cuz they T5 and can move 12" and still shoot?

=======================
edit: found out that imperial guard flamers look exactly like space marine. is there a size difference? is the space marine flamer bigger or vice versa? The best part was that the imperial guard flamers were roughly $2 each. I plan on attaching a chain on it to hang around the neck of my marines instead of making more marines with flamers.

Now, the imperial guard missile launchers are much cheaper but dont match space marines. However, I think I can shorten the tube and modify the arms to carry it or use green stuff to make mutated arms to hold it.

Also I found that if I buy combat knives, I could attach it to my imperial guard autocannons as bayonettes to make it look more sinister.

However, I am tempted to buy a single lot of partial painted devastator squad for the extra men and 2 flamers.

I might try out an Abaddon list myself one of these days, like the one with 6 squads of 3 flamers and missile launcher. I play with friends who are not so sticky about WYSIWYG. So, I can proxy flamers with normal CSM, or melta gun CSM, of which I have quite a few.

My army is painted wholly in the colors of black legion, so it would be very cool to be able to field the master of the black legion Abaddon one of these days.

You should try it and tell me how it goes. I am dying to find out if there are hidden tactics and synergies for csm.

Don't have Abaddon and I only have 5 Rhinos. But I could easily proxy him and use a predator tank to proxy the Rhino. My friend uses proxies all the time himself.

Will try it out sometime and report back here.

Just hope Abaddon doesn't turn out like my Huron Blackheart, who get focused down and shot at by my friend's whole army and died on turn 1. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I modified the concept slightly, I think I have almost all of this (with some proxies).

Abaddon - 265

5 Chosen, autocannon - 110
Aegis Defense Line w quad gun - 100

5 Chosen, autocannon, 3 flamers, Rhino w havoc launcher - 172
5 Chosen, autocannon, 3 flamers, Rhino w havoc launcher - 172
5 Chosen, autocannon, 3 flamers, Rhino w havoc launcher - 172
5 Chosen, autocannon, 2 flamers, Rhino w havoc launcher - 167
5 Chosen, autocannon, 2 flamers, Rhino w havoc launcher - 167

Hellbrute - 100
Hellbrute, reaper autocannon, missile launcher - 115
Hellbrute, reaper autocannon, missile launcher - 115

Predator (autocannon), lascannon sponsons - 115
Predator (autocannon), lascannon sponsons - 115
Predator (autocannon), lascannon sponsons - 115

Total - 2000

Abaddon is actually at the Aegis Defense line. Think of it as giving him a quad gun for a ranged weapon. And with him there, its going to take a lot to take down that Aegis, so put your home objective there!

Its a bit more static than the one that has him in the termi squad, but it can put out a heck of a ton of shots! And it goes for the armor saturation concept. There are 3 walkers, 5 Rhinos and 3 tanks - so 11 vehicles. Most people simply don't have that much anti armor. Use the Rhinos and Aegis Defense line to screen the hellbrutes and predators. Just outshoot the enemy!

It can shoot out 26 Str 7 shots! (of which 8 are twin linked), plus 3 Str 8, 6 Str 9, and 5 twin linked Str 5 blasts (from the havoc launchers). That is a heck ton of ranged firepower, and most of it is range 48 inches too! So, just sit back and shoot the enemy for three rounds, then go forth in the Rhinos on turn 4 onwards to capture objectives. If you run into an even shootier army (which should be kinda rare), then have Abaddon deep strike in, and charge forward on round 1 with all 5 Rhinos, backed by 3 hellbrutes to close assault.

So, comments? Think this is shooty enough? lol

The 5 Chosen, autocannon is 100

The other 5 Chosen, autocannon, 3 flamer, Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher is 162

The other Chosens with 2 flamers at 167 is actually 157

unless a faq said they are more expensive.

The Hellbrute are faq'ed to be 100. At first I thought they were 5 under.

I just faced a Dark Angels player who took Balial so he had 3 squads of termi and land raiders. The autocannons did jack gak to them as they still got their armor save and av14. I already lost when I accepted his challenge.

So I decided to bulk up on lascannons.

Abaddon, ADL, icarus lascannon = a sure thing vs any marine. - 265+85
Chosen, lascannon, -110

Chosen, LasCan, 3 flamer, rhino, hvclnchr- 172
Spam total 5x

Hell drake (bflame)

Pred, LasCan sponson - 115
Dupe

I dont know what total is atm.

Minor update.

Abaddon @ ADL, quad gun-365
Chosen, Lascan-110

Chosen, Lascan, 3 flamer, champ w/ meltabomb, Rhino, hml 177
Spam total x5=885


Defiler,stock RAC, HF -195
Defiler, stock RAC, HF-195

1750
Trying to decide if I should swap out a chosen squad for a hell drake with a bale flamer. If I do, then how should I spend 7pts.