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so this kid at my stoer runs everything with mind shackle scarabs and i play CSM so i am forced to challenge him
When are Mind shackle scarabs resolved because i think that it would be resolved before challenges are declared and i would hit my own guys, but this kid told me that i hit myself and since my weapon is a force weapon and i have unused warp charges so i force weapon myself and i get insta popped

So can somebody explain to me exactly how these attacks are resolved, this cost me the game on more then one occasion

Well for starters, blame matt ward for MSS.

MSS is resolved in the order of the players choice for who's turn it is.

For example, if you charge, and at the start of the fight no one is in base contact with the MSS bastard, no one is MSS-ed, then challenges occur, followed by int order.

However if it's the nercon players turn, he can choose to use MSS after challenges have taken place.

So just charge him and don't let him charge you. Also keep your guys out of base contact with the MSS dudes were possible.

Also the FAQ lets you use force weapons with MSS, because it's dumb.

Apart from the inherant bias against mindshackle scarabs (and matt ward) present in the above post, 'juraigamer' is essentially correct.

The active player gets to choose the sequence of events when there are two conflicting actions which state they'd normally happen at the same time. Therefore your best strategy with CSM is to do your best to inflict the charge yourself and choose to have the MSS effect happen before challenges (and not be in btb with the model with MSS) so you'll get a round to beat down on the Overlord or what have you before it can try to mind-control your model.

Also mindshackle scarabs allows the necron player to use all the properties of your weapon; including activating the force property if they choose to. (a ruling that is upheld in the Necron FAQ).

 juraigamer wrote:
MSS is resolved in the order of the players choice for who's turn it is.

For example, if you charge, and at the start of the fight no one is in base contact with the MSS bastard, no one is MSS-ed, then challenges occur, followed by int order.

However if it's the nercon players turn, he can choose to use MSS after challenges have taken place.

This is true.

The FaQ about the MSS using warp charges is a big rules change, but plan accordingly and if possible keep the champions in the back away from being engaged.

Wouldn't that not be an option since both sides get an opportunity to challenge and for declaring a challenge all your unit needs to be is locked in combat not engaged(accepting requires engaged) and the CSM must issue a challenge.

Relevant quotes:

To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger.

Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck. Only one challenge can be issued per close combat - the side whose turn it is has the opportunity to issue a challenge first. If that side chooses not to, then the other side can issue a challenge

A model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must always issue and accept a challenge when possible.

So one way or another as long as the opponent doesn't challenge or decline a challenge(and has a character in the unit who can accept) the Champion will be unable to hide from the challenge by staying back.

Characters can only issue/accept challenges if they are engaged. (Last line under 'Issuing a Challenge' and Last line under 'Accepting a Challenge')

So any character, including CSM, can circumvent the challenges on the first turn by keeping their characters in the back. Not an uncommon tactic for Lords with Demon Weapons who don't want to kill some piddly 1 wound character on the turn they charge. The trick is keeping them close enough to where they can still swing when they pile in on their Initiative step. If your CSM can get to a part where he can engage the Necron with MSS, you should give him the opportunity to use the MSS before issuing the challenge. (There is no rule that says you must, but in the interest of sportsmanship...) If he chooses not to, then he can't then decide to use them after the challenge. He can however decline, forcing his character to not swing, hope he's still alive, and accept the challenge on his turn, then using MSS.

In short, if you have to deal with MSS, make it count while you can.

I find it hard to take this post seriously with all the blatant bias and condescending attitude against a easy to counter/deal with mechanic that only shows up on HQs and lords....if you aren't "special" its not hard to take it down. At worst, it negates one model's attacks and sends D3 attacks back at you. If you, lets face it, play dumb and send in your CC beast and place him in BTB with the chap with MSS, i'd say you deserve to get force weapon induced ID D3 wounds caused by said cc beast, and then take the S7 warscythe hits to his pretty face....

also, why are you allowing a model with a force weapon(used by psykers) to have his weapon used against him? Do as the grey knights do, use your hammerhand or w/e power that model has before you charge. No Warp Charge= no force weapon....

overlordweasel wrote:
I find it hard to take this post seriously with all the blatant bias and condescending attitude against a easy to counter/deal with mechanic that only shows up on HQs and lords....if you aren't "special" its not hard to take it down. At worst, it negates one model's attacks and sends D3 attacks back at you. If you, lets face it, play dumb and send in your CC beast and place him in BTB with the chap with MSS, i'd say you deserve to get force weapon induced ID D3 wounds caused by said cc beast, and then take the S7 warscythe hits to his pretty face....

also, why are you allowing a model with a force weapon(used by psykers) to have his weapon used against him? Do as the grey knights do, use your hammerhand or w/e power that model has before you charge. No Warp Charge= no force weapon....

In the second round of combat he will be getting the warp charge back so even if you use it the first round there is nothing you can do about it the second.

Akar, the squad is engaged in combat, IC is part of the squad, therefore challenges can be issued even if guy is sulking at the back

Incorrect - you cannot proffer or accept a challenge unless you are ENGAGED.

MarkyMark wrote:
In the second round of combat he will be getting the warp charge back so even if you use it the first round there is nothing you can do about it the second.

Yes there is, the aforementioned hammerhand.

An engaged model is any model that is in base contact or within 2" of a friendly model in base contact, at their initiative step. After initial charges, there are usually very few models actually engaged, and players have quite a bit of control in which models are engaged. It's during the Pile-in moves that most of the models will become engaged. Challenges are issued before I10, and therefore before any pile-in moves occur.

I do know that several players, including myself, are still counter piling in out of habit. It doesn't happen every game, but it still happens.

MSS - A friend has had fun with mind shackle scarabs. All you need is terminator armour and ap3+

He uses a chaplain in TDA, but it should work with lords/Dark Apostles etc.

Turn 1 in a challenge - MSS works, he uses his crozius as a loofah. (ap4 vs 2+)
Repeat until MSS fails
Bludgeon Necron into the floor.

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

Murder sword boosts you when your in base to base contact with the target. At that point your attacks are boosted regardless of what you swing at.

PredaKhaine wrote:
MSS - A friend has had fun with mind shackle scarabs. All you need is terminator armour and ap3+

He uses a chaplain in TDA, but it should work with lords/Dark Apostles etc.

Turn 1 in a challenge - MSS works, he uses his crozius as a loofah. (ap4 vs 2+)
Repeat until MSS fails
Bludgeon Necron into the floor.

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

So I take it your friend doesn't use Warscythes? Or you seem to be discounting the part where the Necron Lord gets to make his S7 ap1 attacks against your 2+ Armour.

No he doesn't use them. As I said, he uses a chaplain in TDA armour.

I was talking about surviving MSS, which is possible with the right weapon combo.
I've no idea why the str 7 ap1 attacks didn't feature.
Edit:
Just checked the lord stats on GW - WS 4, I4 and 3 attacks.
So on receiving a charge, you'll hit simultaniously/second, on a 4+ with 3 attacks?

So reliably hit with 1-2 attacks? and the chaplain gets a 4++ against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

Murder sword boosts you when your in base to base contact with the target. At that point your attacks are boosted regardless of what you swing at.

Right so it's btb contact and the sword powers up? I thought it would've been against a particular character but oh well....

Thanks

I thought that was hwo the Murder Sword worked as well. the way i read it was that you moninated an enemy IC and any attacks made against that IC hit what whatever the boosted stats are.

MSS is not fool-proof though. It is dependant on a Ld test on 3D6 so you do have a decent chance of passing it. Maybe i'm just unlucky but my MSS only kicks in about 50% of the time.



Necron Lords (and Overlords) are I2.

PredaKhaine wrote:
No he doesn't use them. As I said, he uses a chaplain in TDA armour.

I was talking about surviving MSS, which is possible with the right weapon combo.
I've no idea why the str 7 ap1 attacks didn't feature.
Edit:
Just checked the lord stats on GW - WS 4, I4 and 3 attacks.
So on receiving a charge, you'll hit simultaniously/second, on a 4+ with 3 attacks?

So reliably hit with 1-2 attacks? and the chaplain gets a 4++ against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

Murder sword boosts you when your in base to base contact with the target. At that point your attacks are boosted regardless of what you swing at.

Right so it's btb contact and the sword powers up? I thought it would've been against a particular character but oh well....

Thanks

Since we're bringing up random stuff anyway, you better hope the necron player also didn't bring zahndrek to the party for some furious charge action on a D.Lord with that warscythe. Otherwise, just one failed save on that first round makes your dude pop.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Since we're bringing up random stuff anyway, you better hope the necron player also didn't bring zahndrek to the party for some furious charge action on a D.Lord with that warscythe. Otherwise, just one failed save on that first round makes your dude pop.

Random Stuff = Suggesting ways for the op to not die to MSS cos he clearly hates MSS

And on your point - yep that'd hurt.

So it'd have to be a Nurgle terminator lord, with the sigil of corruption and a power sword/maul. That *should* tarpit for the game.

Not sure. A Nurgle termie would be T5 so the Warscythe would still wound on a 2+ and force an invul save.

Also, any lord with Sempiternal Weave would still get a 2+ save against all the attacks from a sword/maul.

MSS is lessened by not really being able to hurt yourself and survival is relying on the necron lord not hitting with enough attacks. He should hit with 1-2 attacks with a 50/50 chance of saving them. No instant death because the lord would be T5. I don't think a nurgle lord would win in cc, just hold the necron lord up. That'd be all I'd hope for.
What is there in the chaos codex that could survive MSS and then take on the Necron Lord with a warsythe and sempiturnal weave?

PredaKhaine wrote:
No he doesn't use them. As I said, he uses a chaplain in TDA armour.

I was talking about surviving MSS, which is possible with the right weapon combo.
I've no idea why the str 7 ap1 attacks didn't feature.
Edit:
Just checked the lord stats on GW - WS 4, I4 and 3 attacks.
So on receiving a charge, you'll hit simultaniously/second, on a 4+ with 3 attacks?

So reliably hit with 1-2 attacks? and the chaplain gets a 4++ against them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

wtnind wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:

Incidentally, what about the murder sword? If It's AP 3 (don't have the codex to hand) it won't hurt terminator armour, but as soon as you get past MSS, if the guy you're fighting is the one who you've turned the sword on to then it should activate.
It won't work at full power on yourself, because you nominate before the game and then you can't change it, so it isn't able to be used against you.

Murder sword boosts you when your in base to base contact with the target. At that point your attacks are boosted regardless of what you swing at.

Right so it's btb contact and the sword powers up? I thought it would've been against a particular character but oh well....

Thanks

No what I was referring to is the Necron Lord of any decent Necron Player is equipped with MSS and a Warscythe. It doesn't matter if your friends Chaplin is unable to kill himself with MSS attacks as success or failure the Lord can make quick work of the Chaplin with his S7 ap1 Warscythe attacks. On a destroyer Lord you get Preferred enemy and against a Chaplin the lord keeps hir 2+ save with an S. weave. Yes WS4 may take a couple of turns to dispatch the Chaplin completely but that is bolstered by the squad he will always be attached to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PredaKhaine wrote:
MSS is lessened by not really being able to hurt yourself and survival is relying on the necron lord not hitting with enough attacks. He should hit with 1-2 attacks with a 50/50 chance of saving them. No instant death because the lord would be T5. I don't think a nurgle lord would win in cc, just hold the necron lord up. That'd be all I'd hope for.
What is there in the chaos codex that could survive MSS and then take on the Necron Lord with a warsythe and sempiturnal weave?

Almost nothing. Chaos is severely lacking in low Inv. Saves.

So this is seriously the best answer?

The op's best option to avoid MSS/Destroyer Lord with a warsythe killing him is to not play against necrons. Because there is nothing in the chaos 'dex that can stop it.

Now I'm depressed...
Edit:
Bar shooting...

Not at all. Give your Lord VoTLW to boost their leadership that increases the odds you will pass the MSS test in the first place and avoid it completely.

Assuming you manage that (not unlikely) you have the edge on initiative and can proceed to smack them around.

If i was playing against Necrons i would always kit myself out to kill them - so take an axe or fist for the AP2 (as stated, most Necron player will run their lords with Mss, weave and warscythe). Chances are they wont have an invul save as it is a really pricey upgrade that i better spent elsewhere.

Alternatively, try to avoid combat with the Lord - blast him to death and charge the other units in the army that dont have MSS (it's only Overlords, Destroyer Lords and Little Lords that can have them).


MSS is not infallible. As i have said, mine misses almost as often as it hits (i mostly play against SM). Not sure what the Mathhammer is but what is the average roll you'll get from 3D6?

Average roll for a d6 is 3.5 so 3d6 is 10.5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I am bothering to kit out a HQ with MSS and fighting SM I rarely fail to take the Phase Shifter. It's costly but the power weapon offset has paid off numerous times. I have to agree that to face down a unit kitted like that is shooting. Even if you manage to take out the squad the HQ is attached to he can usually tar pit for a turn or two and really if I can tie up a CC unit and allow my other shooting units more time it's well worth it.

Edit: My maths they are the suck.

3.5*3 is 10.5, so it's close to 50/50.

 Praxiss wrote:
Not at all. Give your Lord VoTLW to boost their leadership that increases the odds you will pass the MSS test in the first place and avoid it completely.

Assuming you manage that (not unlikely) you have the edge on initiative and can proceed to smack them around.

If i was playing against Necrons i would always kit myself out to kill them - so take an axe or fist for the AP2 (as stated, most Necron player will run their lords with Mss, weave and warscythe). Chances are they wont have an invul save as it is a really pricey upgrade that i better spent elsewhere.

Alternatively, try to avoid combat with the Lord - blast him to death and charge the other units in the army that dont have MSS (it's only Overlords, Destroyer Lords and Little Lords that can have them).


MSS is not infallible. As i have said, mine misses almost as often as it hits (i mostly play against SM). Not sure what the Mathhammer is but what is the average roll you'll get from 3D6?

Pass or fail against Chaos, rarely matters. If you pass, I take a couple armour saves if your character doesn't die at I2, fail and you get a 50/50 chance of saving with your INV. On a Foot Overlord the Phase Shifter is required equipment, on a D. Lord its not available but the T6 negates doubling out instant death from fists or Axes. The nice thing with Chaos is that discounting fearless units, Chaos doesn't have ATSKNF to save itself from Sweeping Advance or falling back. Loyalist marines are more well equipped in that regard against Necrons.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
On a Foot Overlord the Phase Shifter is required equipment, on a D. Lord its not available but the T6 negates doubling out instant death from fists or Axes

Does MSS work on dreadnoughts/HellBrutes/maulerfiends?

Edit:
Finished doing some research on here, MSS doesn't attack vehicles - Maulerfiend looks like the way to go, in CC, against a destroyer lord.
MSS doesn't work, use the tendrils of less attacks (whatever they're called) and I3 doesn't matter for once.

The downside of that is that the Warscythe will give the Necron 2D6 against armor and +2 on the damage table if they do Pen.

So the walker would need to nail the lord pretty quickly to avoid being killed itself.

Looks like the most reliable way to do it is to dakka the necron lord to death first.

Or swamp him in cheap bodies - cultists work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Praxiss wrote:
The downside of that is that the Warscythe will give the Necron 2D6 against armor and +2 on the damage table if they do Pen.

So the walker would need to nail the lord pretty quickly to avoid being killed itself.

Looks like the most reliable way to do it is to dakka the necron lord to death first.

It's got a 5++ (IIRC) so there's a chance of not dying. And the Necron Lord would get only 1 attack.
As a one turn, 'dammit that lord's too near!' 135pt stop gap - I'd take that gamble in a game.