Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry if this is in the wrong place, and I hope someone can move it if it is, but I played a 2400 Fantasy game with a friend tonight, and was wondering what people here on dakka thought about the lists.

Are they well built, which is built better, and which should win.
So without further ado, here are the lists, Vampires vs Beastmen.


Vampires

Vampire Lord - 318
Golden sigil sword
Dawnstone amulet
Silvered armour
Dread Knight
Shield

Necromancer - 250
Level 2 wizard
Corpse cart - Lodestone

Necromancer - 260
level 2 wizard
Corpse cart - Lodestone
Master of the dead

50 zombies - 160
Banner
Musician

50 zombies - 160
Banner
Musician

40 Skeletons - 230
Banner
Champion
Musician

40 Skeletons - 230
Banner
Champion
Musician

40 Skeletons - 230
Banner
Champion
Musician

40 Skeletons - 230
Banner
Champion
Musician

10 Dire wolves - 90
Doom wolf


5 Black Knights - 160
Musician
Banner
Champion
Barding
Lances



Beastmen

Great Bray Shaman - 294
Level 4 wizard
Talisman of preservation
Sacrificial dagger
Hand weapon

War Gor - 162
Destiny
Banner standard bearer
Shield

Bray Shaman - 100
Dispel scroll

Bray Shaman - 110
Level 2 wizard


38 Gors - 329
hand weapons
Full command

30 Gors - 265
Hand weapons
Full command

30 Bestigors - 400

6 Minotaurs - 330

Cygor - 275

24 Ungors - 135
Full command.


Hopefully that's correct for both. So please, tell me what you think of both lists, which is best, which should win blah blah blah.

Thanks for reading,

LazzurusMan

Vampire List:
Fighting vampire without red fury? Crazy. It makes a 300+ point combat monster 50% better. Has 2+ armor that can't be improved, but you took a shield. Spent 15 points to strike at init 10 instead of spending 25 points for Always Strikes First.
This guy is the fat kid in vampire school who get's picked last for spots and has solid C minus grades.
Corpse Cart Necros? Bad idea. The necro's gain nothing from being mounted and lose a lot of survivability. Dispel scroll would help, as would a master necromancer.
Core: Too much. Not enough hammer, too much crap. Drop 2 whole blocks of skeletons (at least) and pick up something that thumps the enemy, like 460 points worth of crypt horrors or grave guard.

Beastmen:
What lores for the wizards? Level 4, level 2 and level 1 is good.
The level 4 I usually see with 4+ ward, steel claws, jagged dagger, and +1 init. Gives him 3 to 5 S4 attacks base.
BSB should have banner of the beast, heavy armor, shield, and Banner of the Beast.
Wizards go with lore of beast and buff the great shaman and BSB.
Typically beast players squeeze in a cheap lord for the better leadership.
Then, 1 big block of gors (50+), some support core, and 2 beast sticks (bestigors and minotaurs seem to work well).
I like the idea of a cygor. Too bad he doesn't live up to the fluff.

Anyhow, I'd rate both the posted lists as sub par, and dull, with the beast list doing better in the match up. Minotaur will have a field day against those VC.

As with all games, winner will come down to how well they are played and how lucky they are, but given those two options, I'd bet on beasts.

-Matt

If you un-mount the Necromancers and keep one cart in your specials, you have enough points to make one of them a Master Necromancer. Not having a level 4 without a Mortis Engine will really gimp your magic phase and you'll be hard pressed to get any spells off. I agree with Matt too, drop a couple skeleton blocks and invest in some damage dealers like Grave Guard, Crypt Horrors, or more Black Knights.

The Beasts list I think really doesn't look too bad. If you really want to use the Cygor, go ahead. It's a cool model and the his abilities occasionally do something (don't except much from him and he can only surprise you). I never run the Beast Banner in favour of giving the BSB a ward save, and don't have too many problems, especially if your Level 2 and Level 1 Shamans both use Lore of Beasts so you can have 2 Wyssans floating around. The only thing I'd tweak is maybe drop the Ungors for some chaff (Razorgors, Harpies, Raiders).

I don't know beatmen all that well but that vamp list wont beat much.

You lord should have ASF (quickblood if you want a good magic sword, like +2 or +3 S/A, sword of ASF if you don't). Init 10 gains him nothing. He needs red fury too. Really at 318 points you are going for a dirt cheap lord, vampire lords should be friggen expensive. As has been said, he won't do much. Dawnstone and silver armour isn't bad but a cannon will still one hit him.

Pair of necros are ALWAYS good.. except on corpse carts. Cannons will end them, as will anything able to outmaneuver you and get in combat with them. A mount for a necro just makes him a target, the best place for him is a nice big unit of zombies to hide in. Also look at getting them some bound items, we have some great ones in the VC book.

WAY TOO MUCH CORE.
I can't stress that enough, VC spend the 25% min and wash their hands of if because our core is only good for holding the enemy while we bring a hammer to bear. It can not win you the game. I fell bad when in a 2400 point game I have 25 points over minimum core.

Oh, also, I love direwolves but they wont do anything. You run them in units of 5 to out deploy/maneuver your opponent, not to hurt things.

Well to shock you all, the Beastmen lost horrifically. I was playing that exact VC list and lost the dire wolves and a block of skeletons. The beastmen lost everything except the Minotaurs.

In my revised VC list I intend to drop the CC and have a master Necro at level 4, but I'm not sure what I could do to stop my friends next list, which shall be the doombull delivery and minotaur bus :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the shield on the Vamp was to make up more points and give the 6+ parry save.

[quote=LazzurusMan 494762 5079632 a2b53407a0a3c47992ec358e61bd03a1.jpg

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the shield on the Vamp was to make up more points and give the 6+ parry save.

I'm brand new to 8th edition VC...I played a bit with the old book, but never with the new one. The only reason I won was dominance of the magic phase, after LUCKILY killing his level 4 wizard and dispel scroll.

No, were not hindering your victory, well done!

Just some sugestions from the guys that are used to 8th vamps and what works for them

To explain both players in this match up were using new armybooks that they were unused to.
@ Cirronimbus that was the general plan which worked well using the bestigors + BSB as beast stick.
But on turn two the unit of 40 gor failed their; terror,primal fury and LD and were then caught and destroyed by skeletons, this unit had the lvl4(shadows) and level1(beasts).

 brentyboi wrote:
To explain both players in this match up were using new armybooks that they were unused to.
@ Cirronimbus that was the general plan which worked well using the bestigors + BSB as beast stick.
But on turn two the unit of 40 gor failed their; terror,primal fury and LD and were then caught and destroyed by skeletons, this unit had the lvl4(shadows) and level1(beasts).

The characters were positioned wrong. Level 4 goes in the bestigor and BSB in the gor. As S4 gor will make more of a difference than S6/7 Bestigor.

 brentyboi wrote:
To explain both players in this match up were using new armybooks that they were unused to.
@ Cirronimbus that was the general plan which worked well using the bestigors + BSB as beast stick.
But on turn two the unit of 40 gor failed their; terror,primal fury and LD and were then caught and destroyed by skeletons, this unit had the lvl4(shadows) and level1(beasts).

Which is why you want a beast lord for the leadership. With how I roll, I'd run a cheapish beast lord in the bestigors with the banner of discipline. Gives you a nice Ld10 bubble.

If you need to kill a minotaur bus, terrorgiests work wonders. Tie it up in combat and start screaming into the fight.

-Matt

thedarkavenger wrote:
The characters were positioned wrong. Level 4 goes in the bestigor and BSB in the gor. As S4 gor will make more of a difference than S6/7 Bestigor.

The BSB did not have banner of beasts but should have i agree.

So, here are mine and Brentyboi's revised 2400 point lists. Have fun tearing them apart everyone!


Vampires

Vampire Lord - 504 - Vampires
Level 4 wizard
Barded nightmare
Armour of silvered steel
Dawnstone
Warrior Bane
Red fury
Dread knight

Necromancer - 125 - Vampires
level 2 wizard
dispel scroll

Necromancer - 120 - Vampires
level 2 wizard
Master of the dead

20 Zombies - 70
full command

20 Zombies - 70
full command

20 Zombies - 70
full command

40 Skeletons{/i] - 230
full command

[i]29 Skeletons - 175
full command

30 Grave guard - 360
full command

20 Black knights - 510
full command
barding

The Vampire tactic is to run the Lord with the knights as a large flanking/breaking unit. The Wight king goes in with the Grave guard, alongside the Necromancer that has Master of the dead. I then put my skeleton units around it. The other Necromancer sits in one of the 3 Zombie units and surround itself with zombies. This way all 5 core choices can be much larger by turn two. I then lock as much as I can in combat, and break them with the Grave guard/Black knights.



Beastmen

Beastlord - 195
Standard of discipline
Crown of command

Great Bray Shaman - 325 - Shadow
Lvl 4
Steel claws
Jagged dagger
Talisman of preservation

Wargor - 189
BSB
Banner of Beasts
shield

Bray Shaman - 160 - Beasts
lvl 2
shard of the herdstone

Bray shaman - 75 - Beasts

50 Gors - 425
full command
extra hand weapons

30 Gors - 265
full command
extra hand weapons

5 ungor raiders - 30

5 ungor raiders - 30

5 ungor raiders - 30

Bestigors - 400
full command

Cygor - 275

In an attempt to redeem myself, the Great bray shaman, Shaman and BSB will go into the Horde of Gors in an attempt to cast Wyssans and Mindrazor. The lvl 2 shaman and Beastlord will go into the bestigors. both units will stay close to the herdstone, while i feed the ungor units to any "scary" oposition. Yes i kept the Cygor as i love the model and as said previously if i dont expect anything he wont dissapoint me.

Beastlord cant take the standard of discipline. You level 4 needs the fencers blades. More chaff. Beastmen need 5+ units of chaff. Drop the little gor block for that. Take the standard of discipline on the bestigor, switch your level 4 to death and snipe characters off. Remember, your wildform mage and BSB go in the gor. Your beastlord and level are go in the bestigor.

The Bestigor unit did have the banner of discipline.

I cant really understand a unit of 20 Black Knights, you dont really benefit greatly from cavalry like bretonnia, maybe a mortis engine or some Hex wraiths. Either way though you can get better results making the 20 Black Knight regiments into 2 10 man blocks. Normally I would suggest seeing some Dire's in the list so that you can get something to move out infront for low point costs and assist in getting more favorable matchup's but with 60 zombies that can easily grow. But you only have 3 heros listed so where does thie wight king come into play?

For the beastmen, I personally love the cygor. Mobile stone thrower? IMO Winning. Granted its a little easy to kill but beastmen dont really have many shotting options and considering gorgons and jabberslythes through very deadly in melee, are still pretty easily wounded. Hell jabberslythe dies 90% of the time from ranged attacks... before it even gets into combat LOL. Gorgon is pretty amazing though, still not a stone thrower, it's personal prefference.

50 Gor's with a beast banner and extra hand weapons are pretty scarey. Where I commonly play hordes are very very common, so even if you dont roll frenzy for them the fact they have hatred a good 90% of the time, with the reroll, they will chop alot of things up like a hot knife through butter.

Dispell scroll would really help the beastmen side and for oinly 25 points. (arcane item only useable by magic users)

The bestigor block is pretty solid too but I'm questioning the 2nd block of 30 gors. You might be better off with some minotaurs or a gorgon, but really all and all the beastman list this time around is a lot better.

Gah, completely forgot to out the wight king on the list, but his points were included in the match...where this time I was destroyed.