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For me most interesting part was Angron vs Russ in chapter 17 Russ’s Lesson....
Spoiler:
Obvious is that Angron won that duel/brawl, but I don't understand why did Russ spared his life,and wasn't going for the kill - I' mean he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things,so this is another turn on character view, so I'm starting to dislike him
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/06 02:22:19
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
*Lorgar explains things to Angron*
'We won - I beat up Russ and they ran away.'
'Russ had all of the guns pointed at you and you could have died. Then they left of their own accord.'
But, but, I beat up Russ and they ran away.'
Anyway, Russ was trying to take Angron in without killing him, he failed, Angron won the duel,Russ stood up and Angron was surrounded by SW who could shoot him down...then Russ like a don't use this term like this on Dakka please. Thanks. Reds8n retreats...
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/01/07 13:08:27
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
I'm glad ADB put Russ out of dumb barbarian context even if that means losing a duel....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/16 04:20:10
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
It appears that Russ was not there to kill Angron. Losing the duel just means that Russ might have been fighting "With his hands tied". Not killing him after the duel just supports the idea that Russ was not there to kill him.
Spoiler:
It is a rather interesting scene though. More so because Argron doesn't seem to realise that if Russ was sent to execute him he would have died there. Untill Lorgar tells him so.
^ Yeah, but you know people who dislike SW on this forum, they will use this as ultimate guide in ranking primarchs and completly disregard the goal of the battle....I'll bet with you on who will be the first....
P.S.
I sent you a PM...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/16 07:14:21
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
This book starts out fun and entertaining, even if a little mindless, and then takes a huge crap just past the halfway point. This was probably better off having been an audio drama. Too little actually going on, and had to be inflated to fill out a novel. Kharn is horribly written. Inconsistent as hell. The Nails turn into a plot device that only seem to appear in the novel when the story needs them to.
Battles have too much happening in a vacuum. Like the Nails, things happen solely because the narrative needs them to, not because they make any sense in the greater context.
Final confrontation between Guilliman, Lorgar and Angron is the same way. Even worse because it feels completely shoehorned into the story to make an epic climax. Guilliman holds off both Lorgar and Angron for a little bit, and then when the story needs him to run away (since he can't die, and Angron needs to turn into a daemon prince), suddenly Angron is too much for him.
Guilliman's real powers revealed. The ability to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Agree with you @Sarge...I'm also little disappointed with the second part of the book (little boring and predictible), too bad, it had potential...Maybe ADB went a little over the top ...
Angel exterminatus is in my opinion much better book...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/17 06:10:17
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I preferred Angel Exterminatus as well but on the point of Papa Smurf holding off both Lorgar and Angron I think it was more of lorgars presence holding back angron as he wasn't able to go one on one with guilliman...the book is littered with the idea that only two of the primarchs stand a chance one on one with angron
Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Great book, great story, kharn not being a mindless killing machine was excellent and truly adds to the sad fact that he becomes one, it's nice to see the 30k contrast of kharn in this book and the 40k one in chosen of khorne, Magnus plays a great cameo in this book too, and the dialogue between him and lorgar is some of the best I've read 9/10
Haven't gotten to the book yet, but unless those Space Wolves were all armed with meltas and conversion beamers or something, it's unlikely they would have taken Angron down.
After all, Corax took a sustained barrage from several squads of Iron Warriors, including missiles, plasmaguns and lascannons all battering his armor. Eventually the weight of fire forced him to move, but he certainly wasn't insta-gibbed execution-style. I doubt the Wolves would have gotten more than a single salvo into Angron before he puréed everything in reach.
I'll have to read the book to make a final judgement call, but doesn't sound very promising so far.
Omegus wrote: Haven't gotten to the book yet, but unless those Space Wolves were all armed with meltas and conversion beamers or something, it's unlikely they would have taken Angron down.
After all, Corax took a sustained barrage from several squads of Iron Warriors, including missiles, plasmaguns and lascannons all battering his armor. Eventually the weight of fire forced him to move, but he certainly wasn't insta-gibbed execution-style. I doubt the Wolves would have gotten more than a single salvo into Angron before he puréed everything in reach.
I'll have to read the book to make a final judgement call, but doesn't sound very promising so far.
Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 20:13:49
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I'm not twisting anything, like I said in my original post, I withhold final judgement until I read the book.
I just expressed doubts that a Primarch, particularly Angron, could be so easily dispatched unless those Wolves were packing some serious hardware. I mean, it would probably take Russ holding the guy down while a company of Marines pumped round after round down Angron's gullet.
Omegus wrote: I'm not twisting anything, like I said in my original post, I withhold final judgement until I read the book.
I just expressed doubts that a Primarch, particularly Angron, could be so easily dispatched unless those Wolves were packing some serious hardware. I mean, it would probably take Russ holding the guy down while a company of Marines pumped round after round down Angron's gullet.
But that's the beauty of the book - It's shows how SW were losing the battle because they went for "the throat" (tone of them), encircled Angron in the midst of the battle(described as best tactical move in history of the adeptus astartes) - which WE were trying to pierce but the circle was too thick...Lorgar explains that to Angron who won the duel against Russ ,who was trying to bring him alive ??? (this is a little stupid,I still don't understan that )
Anyway
Spoiler:
Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’
‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’
‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’
That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’
‘He crawled.’ Angron chuckled again, making a meal of the word.
‘And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’
‘He tried and failed.’
‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 20:31:11
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
Gav Thorpe lol.
Corax was wading through salvos of lascannon fire, missiles, plasma and gak in The First Heretic. A book Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote. The same guy who wrote Betrayer.
DarthMarko wrote: Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
Gav Thorpe lol.
Corax was wading through salvos of lascannon fire, missiles, plasma and gak in The First Heretic. A book Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote. The same guy who wrote Betrayer.
Gav Thorpe...lol x 3 ("Deliverance lost")
What ADB wanted in this book is show the Wolves as emperor's executioners (yeah he supports that- check his FB page) ,but not as some 12 year old kid anti gene super duper astartes, rather as cunning regular dudes who will go for the win even if it means losing a battle...very wolfy...
That is the whole point of the chapter 17...Anyway I like this new approach....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
That is uh, not what I said, I don't know why you're bringing that up.
I am pointing out that in First Heretic, ADB wrote Corax as able to power through salvos of heavy weapons fire as he slaughtered Word Bearers, so if a bunch of Space Marines, Wolves or otherwise, armed with only their basic weaponry had the means to take down a Primarch, ADB is contradicting himself.
I mean, I also haven't read the book so can't make any educated statement, but was just noting that ADB himself portrayed Primarchs as nigh-invulnerable demigods of war.
This is a little different approach (or down to earth way)...Anyway tone astartes and elite bodyguard encircleing you and pointing heavy guns at your gak + Russ standing on his feet doesn't give you much odds...
What is good, Russ admited that Angron would won this in arena, but on the battlefield - never...How Lorgar is explainin' that to a dumb Angron is hilarious...Only thing what bugs me why Russ didn't go for the kill from the start (oooo poooor Empy and his judment of characters ),and now I feel sorry for Magnus...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Void__Dragon wrote: Yeah, Russ not going for the kill from the start is the dumbest gak I've heard in a while.
Magnus never got that much mercy, and Angron is a dog who needs to be put down. Whereas Magnus was by that point a broken man.
There is a lot of Magnus and Lorgar interesting conversations in the book...(Lorgar taunting Magnus who is still undecided to join them)...In fact this is IMHO best part of the book...
I' still think this is not ADB- best book...but I'll give it 3.99/5....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 21:35:08
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: Your right in that regard the dialogue between the two of them puts the battle writing to shame
Yesss...totaly agree...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 21:34:06
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
