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I'm over the inconsistent characterization of the Wolves, even when written by the same author. Currently, my contempt is reserved for the Imperial Fists.

As for Gav "I like emo gak and wish I was an elf" Thorpe, I'm guessing Marko is referencing Raven's Flight, where Corax was curb-stomping Iron Warriors as thoroughly as he did the Word Bearers and Lorgar in First Heretic.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Yeah, Russ not going for the kill from the start is the dumbest gak I've heard in a while.

Why is it so dumb?

The events recalled in Betrayer are much, much earlier than Prospero, and Angryon isn't accused of anything more than being too brutal.

Huh, seriously?

Why would Angron being gunned down by Space Wolves even be an issue then?

I must be misinformed about the timeline concerning Betrayer.

Yes, that doesn't make sense considering Angron is bragging about there being more dead Wolves than World Eaters.

 Omegus wrote:
Yes, that doesn't make sense considering Angron is bragging about there being more dead Wolves than World Eaters.

Wolves were losing because they thined they ranks and went on Angron...Here is the authors note


It just show that pack menatlity is very effective...But Angron is very, very dumb - Lorgar get's mad when he tries to explain things too him....

We're talking about timeline. Do these events happen before or after Prospero?

After...Magnus is in his new body of light and still undecided should he join the traitors....Lorgar is pushing him with c-god theory...
Russ and Angron is before...

It's weird how Magnus, as a Daemon Prince, still apparently has a choice in the matter.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's weird how Magnus, as a Daemon Prince, still apparently has a choice in the matter.

Magnus is not random Daemon Prince 28,376. He was Chaos' first choice for "Warmaster" and likely has the power to remain independant of the Chaos Gods if he chooses. he does not even think of the Chaos Gods as gods but just super powerfull warp beings.

I actually thought the best part of the book was how the World Eaters keep looking at the "Night of the Wolf" as demonstrating their abilities as combatants but with undertones of extreme jealousy for the Wolves.

My favourite part of it was probably Lorgars reasoning behind The Angel staying loyal...all the while feeling that he (Sanguinius) may already be somewhat corrupted

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Kharn is horribly written.

Could not disagree with you more.

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Kharn is horribly written.

Could not disagree with you more.

If he had been believable, that would be one thing. But he's not. People are mistaking ADB's attempt add complexity to the character by making him a diametric opposite of his 40K self, with actual good character writng. I actually have no problem with the idea of Kharn as a voice of reason until he was corrupted. It's even been given precedent in earlier short stories. The problem is, that portrayal is very weakly done. My biggest issue with Kharn is with the Butcher's Nails. They are inconsistent, and they make him inconsistent. ADB was trying too hard to make Kharn a philosophical foil to Argel Tal, but the problem was, that required him to ignore the stated effects of the Nails to do so. There's one crucial quote that really breaks it all down:

"So Khârn killed, just as his brothers always killed, because killing meant feeling something beyond slow, unfocused spite."

You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.

But pretty much all of Betrayer suffers from this sort of effect. Things across the entire novel only happen because the storyline needs them to, and not because they make any sense in the grander picture. The fight between Lorgar, Angryon, and Guilliman, for example. At one point, Guilliman is fending off both Angryon and Lorgar at the same time, only losing a little bit of ground. The second that he needs to be defeated (because Angryon needs to turn into a daemon prince, and so Guilliman can run away, since he can't die in the events of the story), suddenly Angryon is way too strong and way too powerful for him. Kharn and the World Eaters come up against a Roman Shield wall formation (we'll avoid talking about how silly that is, lol), Kharn recognizes that they need to defeat it with the first charge, but that fails and they are beaten back by it. Kharn gets incredibly angry, and suddenly then that formation is easily dispersed. These are just a couple examples, because it isn't worth listing more. Such as the Imperator Titan's weaponry not being able to fire until the exact moment it can't, or it entire retinue of supporting Titans disappear- wait, I said I'd stop.

Overall, this novel should have been an audio drama, or heck, even a longer short story in an anthology. There was way too little actually happening in this story, with a ton of excess words written about those things. Guilliman displays his true powers: that of being able to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be for the same of added drama (see the end of Angel Exterminatus too).

I will say that the Ultramarines were written rather well, even though ultimately they, like many things, were only as strong as they needed to be in any giv- wait. I said I'd stop. I was quite amused that ADB co-opted my oft-used title of "The Good Son" as Guilliman's archetype when Angryon calls him "Perfect Son." I know for a fact that ADB has read my commentaries on the nature of Guilliman, so I appreciate the nod, lol.


Let me be clear though. This isn't a heavy criticism of ADB. I really think he did a great job characterizing Lorgar in TFH and Aurelian. This novel felt rushed, and under-planned. I also think that trying to tackle the World Eaters in a full length novel, while ambitious, was biting off more than could be chewed. Plus, I think he wanted to write some big battles (he hasn't participated in the major ones talked about so far, like Isstvan, Calth, etc). And I don't know if he has the same kind of big picture battle knowledge/awareness of guys like Abnett. Too much happens in a vacuum in Betrayer. Too many events that have no cause/effect relationship in the grander scheme of things. Again, things just happening, because they need to happen for the story.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Kharn is horribly written.

Could not disagree with you more.

You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.

I think this was done on purpose and shows how the butcher's nails are destroying the World Eaters. Like how a crazy person doesn't know they are crazy. The World Eaters have broken minds and don't know it. Only given little glimpses of what they will become by looking at others of their Legion. By every right they should be what the other Legions are, yet they are not. Kharn, changes depending on how the Nails are affecting him at the time and he doesn't even realise it.

My only real complaint and it basically the same with Auralian. It seems like ADB used the Wolves to promote another Legion that he wants to portray as "Tough". That said I like how he put it 100 years in the past before the nails and Angron really started destroying the Legion.

But see, that's not how it is written.

Kharn is completely cognizant of the fact that the Nails are driving him insane.

They just aren't actually doing that, unless it is important to the story. The story doesn't follow Kharn's actions. His actions follow the story. That's why I think he was poorly written.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 cvtuttle wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Kharn is horribly written.

Could not disagree with you more.

If he had been believable, that would be one thing. But he's not. People are mistaking ADB's attempt add complexity to the character by making him a diametric opposite of his 40K self, with actual good character writng. I actually have no problem with the idea of Kharn as a voice of reason until he was corrupted. It's even been given precedent in earlier short stories. The problem is, that portrayal is very weakly done. My biggest issue with Kharn is with the Butcher's Nails. They are inconsistent, and they make him inconsistent. ADB was trying too hard to make Kharn a philosophical foil to Argel Tal, but the problem was, that required him to ignore the stated effects of the Nails to do so. There's one crucial quote that really breaks it all down:

"So Khârn killed, just as his brothers always killed, because killing meant feeling something beyond slow, unfocused spite."

You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.

But pretty much all of Betrayer suffers from this sort of effect. Things across the entire novel only happen because the storyline needs them to, and not because they make any sense in the grander picture. The fight between Lorgar, Angryon, and Guilliman, for example. At one point, Guilliman is fending off both Angryon and Lorgar at the same time, only losing a little bit of ground. The second that he needs to be defeated (because Angryon needs to turn into a daemon prince, and so Guilliman can run away, since he can't die in the events of the story), suddenly Angryon is way too strong and way too powerful for him. Kharn and the World Eaters come up against a Roman Shield wall formation (we'll avoid talking about how silly that is, lol), Kharn recognizes that they need to defeat it with the first charge, but that fails and they are beaten back by it. Kharn gets incredibly angry, and suddenly then that formation is easily dispersed. These are just a couple examples, because it isn't worth listing more. Such as the Imperator Titan's weaponry not being able to fire until the exact moment it can't, or it entire retinue of supporting Titans disappear- wait, I said I'd stop.

Overall, this novel should have been an audio drama, or heck, even a longer short story in an anthology. There was way too little actually happening in this story, with a ton of excess words written about those things. Guilliman displays his true powers: that of being able to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be for the same of added drama (see the end of Angel Exterminatus too).

I will say that the Ultramarines were written rather well, even though ultimately they, like many things, were only as strong as they needed to be in any giv- wait. I said I'd stop. I was quite amused that ADB co-opted my oft-used title of "The Good Son" as Guilliman's archetype when Angryon calls him "Perfect Son." I know for a fact that ADB has read my commentaries on the nature of Guilliman, so I appreciate the nod, lol.


Let me be clear though. This isn't a heavy criticism of ADB. I really think he did a great job characterizing Lorgar in TFH and Aurelian. This novel felt rushed, and under-planned. I also think that trying to tackle the World Eaters in a full length novel, while ambitious, was biting off more than could be chewed. Plus, I think he wanted to write some big battles (he hasn't participated in the major ones talked about so far, like Isstvan, Calth, etc). And I don't know if he has the same kind of big picture battle knowledge/awareness of guys like Abnett. Too much happens in a vacuum in Betrayer. Too many events that have no cause/effect relationship in the grander scheme of things. Again, things just happening, because they need to happen for the story.

Vet. Sgt! you would'nt happen to have a book review blog somewhere? if not, you should.

I actually do, but it doesn't cover licensed genre fiction, lol. I have a hard enough time keeping up with those deadlines.

Besides, I feel like they'd all sound too overly critical. I mean, none of the Heresy novels are good. Most of them are just entertaining. Writing multiple reviews of "I enjoyed this novel for the most part because I have a nostalgic, inner-nerdy love of the 40K universe, but it was pretty flawed and here are the reasons why" seems like it would get boring. Both for me to write, and for readers, lol.


I tend to get caught up in discussions of character on these forums, but that often turns into a nasty fireball, because some people have a lot emotionally invested in these characters, and don't like to read criticism of them. I run into this most often with Lorgar. He's a heavily, heavily flawed character (that's what makes him interesting), but fans of the Word Bearers often hate to admit that, and it ultimately devolves very quickly. I think any reviews I did of 40K books would just end up with a long string of hate comments about how I "just don't understand".

LOL shallow people are already misinterpreting the book,which pisses author :


Btw I'm puzzeled - Is Magnus the first deamon primarch? Also there is Fulgrim or Angron (who comes first. to daemonhood?)....

Magnus is the first Daemon Primarch, yes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's weird how Magnus, as a Daemon Prince, still apparently has a choice in the matter.

Pretty much. "I gave my bodily willingly to Tzeentch and am now an eldritch manifestation of Warp energy.....BUT I DON'T THINK THESE CHAOS GODS GUY REALLY EXIST"

He didn't give his body to Tzeench. He sacrificed his corporeal form to save the remaining survivors of his Legion.

Having as mighty a psyker as Magnus achieve daemonhood and still maintain illusions of free will is Tzeench's MO.

I liked it a lot. I graduates Lorgar from a weepy zealot to a full-on Bond villain, gives the World Eaters a cool dynamic with their auxiliaries and withintheir own legion, and gives flesh to Angron as a broken figure that the universe pretty much conspired to crap on.

I liked Kharn's portrayal a lot: A good commander who has to deal with a murder-engine in the back of his skull, but tough enough not to whine about it. It's fun to see the early signs of what he'll become, and the one thing that could have prevented it. Even the antagonists are portraued in a very proper way: the ultramarines come across as brave, smart and dangerous, not silly goons for the protagonists to curb-stomp.

Aurelian made Lorgar a legitimate bad gai first.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But see, that's not how it is written.

Kharn is completely cognizant of the fact that the Nails are driving him insane.

They just aren't actually doing that, unless it is important to the story. The story doesn't follow Kharn's actions. His actions follow the story. That's why I think he was poorly written.

Or does the story focus on those moments of him being cognizant vs. berserk in the grand scheme of the battles? I won't deny that some things happen because that's the way he story needs to go, but there is a LOT of action that takes place "off stage" and the story then moves back to the important characters when there are major developments. That was how I saw it anyway.

I also enjoyed Kharns struggle against not only The Butchers Nails, but his struggle against the corrupting influence of Chaos.

I have noticed that whenever prophecy laden plot lines are introduced in any fiction you get a feeling of heavy handidness. We KNOW Kharn fights at Terra and we know what happens with each of The Primarchs (in most cases anyway). It's how they get there that I find interesting. You make some great points, but I can't help but enjoy this book and enjoy reading my Bolter-porn when written by an author like ADB.

Having finally gotten around to reading this novel, Angron won the fight vs. Russ if we're comparing pure martial prowess. The World Eaters also had inflicted more casualties, but the point Russ was trying to make at the end is that his Legion remained united in brotherhood and their common goal, whereas Angron's Legion was becoming a mass of frothing, mindless berserkers. Angron didn't understand the point Russ was trying to make, because he's a brain-damaged don't use terms like this on Dakka. Reds8n


But he still kicked Russ's ass.

^Also like ADB said - SW won from their perspective,WE won from their perspective...Russ didn't want both legions to wipe each other, but one legion would lose a primarch, that is certain...

and Russ wasn't going for the kill, Angron was...

I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.

 Omegus wrote:
I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.

Yeah, this is little dumb :-) Guy who has brawl in his sig, loses the third time in "brawling"....But ok....Call it an irony...
But don't you love Lorgar...I mean how he hits other primarch with simple thruth is great!

 Omegus wrote:
I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.

I have a bad habbit of reading books in a single setting and did not have a problem with the book. However after having time to digest it and reread it. The whole book is a giant "Fluff" piece for Angron and the World Eaters. No matter what they does physically they ares the bestest and that's ok because they have broken minds...

Sure he can overpower a titan... But it is ok because he has broken mind.
He gets his weapon destroyed by Leman Russ, so he just disarms and out brawls the "Great brawling warrior"... But it ok because he has a broken mind.
He can get burried alive and just dig his way through 400 meters of earth (200 down and 200 back up) using axes... But it is ok because he has a broken mind.
The World Eaters charge a heavy defended line designed to destroy them and win... But its ok because they have broken minds. Literally that is the reason the book gives for them winning that fight. "We are so broken that we get mad and crazy and that is the only way to defeat an enemy so disciplined. Who just broke our charge a second ago and was slaughtering us. But now we has the nails so we winses".

I still enjoyed the book but it would have been a lot better if it did not have so many epic/ridiculous moments. Including how many times the Night of the Wolf gets brought up. Especially considering that it appears to only have been included to bring Russ and the SWs down a notch. Rather then a way to bring the World Eaters up, as I first saw it.

At first I thought it was to show that the World Eaters were great fighters and their jealous undertones for the SWs showed that on some level they knew how far they had slipped. But the reread makes it clear that that was not the case. ADB, just wanted to put his opinion of the Space Wolves being "Executioners" in writing while pumping up another Primarch/Legion's abilities.

Some of your criticism is valid (the whole line incident in particular, although I guess we can buy the shield wall finally falling because the World Eaters still hacking with their axes as they were impaled or shield bashed... even if 10 died for every Ultramarine, they still would win eventually), but I think most of the Legion are very aware of how far they have slipped, it's just Angron that is a clueless dumbass.


The one part I very much disliked is Angron torturing that Orfeo guy to death. That just seemed incredibly out of character; Orfeo proved himself a badass warrior (kicked Kharn's ass, for example), and dauntless even when facing down an entire Legion by himself. That is usually something Angron would admire and reward with a quick death by duel, not prolonged torture. It just seemed out of place.

Ya that was bad form. Angron, would definately not torture the guy. I also don't see Angron stepping in, in the middle of the fight to finish Kharn's fight.

Those were just some of the cases. All over the battle for the War World you keep hearing about how the World Eaters keep suffering "Devistating losses" but everywhere the story focuses they are easily winning. The Shield wall is the very worst case. The discription of how the fight starts makes it clear that the World Eaters are basically already lost to the nails and easily outclassed. But then they get really mad (at how badly they are being slaughtered no less) and surprise, they start winning.

If the book was not so slanted in favor of the World Eaters you would have seen how they stood no chance against the Ultramarines without the Word Bearers. Even taking the exact same story and just telling it from the Ultramarine's point of view. The story would be unrecognizable. I would even go so far as to say that if it was writen from an Ultramarine pov you would be asking yourself "How are the World Eaters not dead?" at almost every engagement we see or at least "How did the World Eaters win this?". As a Legion after Betrayer the World Eaters should be so depleted they should really be a non-factor for the rest of the HH series.