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 Omegus wrote:
I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.

Reading this next to the other people in the office i forgot where I was and let out a expletive towards you. Not in a bad way but like you cheaky C##T. Which drew a lot of suprised stares and one staff member asking If I was OK.

not gona say more, to many threads have been closed on the B&C when discusiing Wolves and ADB

 beef wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.

Reading this next to the other people in the office i forgot where I was and let out a expletive towards you. Not in a bad way but like you cheaky C##T. Which drew a lot of suprised stares and one staff member asking If I was OK.

not gona say more, to many threads have been closed on the B&C when discusiing Wolves and ADB

I understand. If rumors are to believed then I may well have been part of the group that got ADB to stop posting on Warseer. So I can understand a Forum's admin not wanting the same to happen to them. I hope he still at least reads the forums that he no longer posts on, so he can see that his insight is missed. Maybe even better being a sneaky git and posting under a different name and not telling anyone who he is.

People have different opinions and you cannot make everyone happy. Some will love the fact that they have proof that Angron beat Russ in a duel. Even if there are outside factors that may or may not have affected the fight. Some will love the fact that they have proof that the SWs beat the World Eaters in that fight. Even if there are outside factors that may or may not have affected the fight. The two groups will put forth the parts they like and come up with reasons s to why the other opinion is flawed. I think the book would have been cleaner without the "Night of the Wolf" and would have been just as disappinted if the roles would had been reversed. It begs the question as to why even include it in the first place, it effectivally ends one of the more heated debates about the setting. Without giving us clear answer.

It would have been more beneficial to the setting if it never came to blows and instead pured gas on the debate. Think about how much we would be talking if the Night of Wolf had no fighting and instead had Russ threatening Angron and Angron not backing down. Throw in Russ saying something like "I don't want another missing statue". To further that debate as well and we would have a few 100+ page threads already.

The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.

What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.

What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.

Nothing about that fight is "Clear". Other then how Angron interpreted the end. Even there Lorgar tells him that he's basically an idiot for that interpretation. Questioning the debatability on whether or not there really was more Wolves dieing then World Eaters. What's worse is that if the Wolves were sent to "Execute" Angron. They showed that they are perfectly capable of doing so and in the opening part of the engagement. Which shows how wrong Lhorke was when he was musing about the Wolves being "Executioners". The Wolves, live "Whatever it takes" and the World Eaters aspire to do it.

Even taking it in the most pro-World Eater way you can; Angron>Russ, World Eaters>Space Wolves individually and World Eaters<Space Wolves tactically. You still end up with uncertainty on how the fight went. because the last part throws the first two into dought.

Edit:

 Omegus wrote:
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

Agreed.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.

What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.

Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."

If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.

 Omegus wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.

What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.

Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."

If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.

ADB responded on this 15 times - and his answer is "they could" ,else the whole point of the chapter is moot...I' mean I knew people will misinterpret the chapter (mostly the one who dislike Russ),but I didn't thought you will be one of them...

 Stonerhino wrote:


Nothing about that fight is "Clear". Other then how Angron interpreted the end. Even there Lorgar tells him that he's basically an idiot for that interpretation. Questioning the debatability on whether or not there really was more Wolves dieing then World Eaters. What's worse is that if the Wolves were sent to "Execute" Angron. They showed that they are perfectly capable of doing so and in the opening part of the engagement. Which shows how wrong Lhorke was when he was musing about the Wolves being "Executioners". The Wolves, live "Whatever it takes" and the World Eaters aspire to do it.

This is the proof - Lorgar starts the story "how Angron was bloody beaten", he corrects him about number of dead soldiers,wonders how Russ managed to crawl and stand up (insert butchers nails mailfunction), and explains him how SW could terminate his slowed arse...I' dont need any proof...Rest is subjective Angrons braging story...

Oh, I'm sure in the narrative Angron was supposedly totally at their mercy, but it just doesn't make sense. They can survive a plasma blaster to the face, or digging through 400 feet of rock, but a couple of dozen boltguns suddenly can do them in?

There's no misinterpretation taking place, it's just a little far fetched. I guess we can just assume they were all armed with multi-meltas.

And Lorgar wasn't there, so his opinion matters little, he was just trying to get Angron to understand the point Russ was making at the end. The fight we see is from an omniscient narrator's point of view.

With this I'm not so clear also...You have demigods who swallow lascannon fire and fart popcorns, but also you have some dudes who go down by mere astartes (Dorn,Fulgrim - who was almost sniped )...
Maybe shot in the eye is "full of win":-) also notice that Angrons story is full of holes...

Angron's story does have holes, most likely because he was lost to the nails and was largely not caring about what was going on other than the immediate fight. He's not really the kind to go about spinning lies; it's not like he even has much self-esteem left to salvage!

I'm hoping it gets continued, personally. Both to see what AngronPlus does when unleashed, and to see how they go about making Kharn's downfall interesting.

 Omegus wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.

What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.

The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.

Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.

Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."

If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.

Apperently we read different books.

ADB Betrayer page 336 wrote:Same with the Wolves: where Russ and his Legion drive the World Eaters to a bitter stalemate, perhaps losing the battle of pride, but succinctly and effectively winning the war. Going for the throat, if you will. Very wolfy.

But here some clearification or in this case mudification.

 Omegus wrote:
If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it.

Russ, broke Angron's axe "Widow maker" in the fight. Angron then disarms Russ and breaks "Kraken Maw". For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. More in a bit.

 Omegus wrote:
As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron.

At the begining of the exchange Lhorke (The contemptor dreadnaught) was close enough for Russ to address him. Lhorke, was also mentioned as being one of the World Eaters trying and failing to fight his way back to the Primarch. That says that either Lhorke and the other World Eaters were forced back away from the primarchs or much more likely that Angron forced his way forward leaving his warriors behind. In the likely case that it was the later then Russ "Running" would be key to seperating Angron from his warriors. The fact that the story mentioned World Eaters trying and failing to come to their primarchs aid shows that the Space Wolves are perfectly capable of holding their ground against them. Even in ADB's own words printed in the very book that this happens in. He says that he wanted to show the Wolves "Going for the throat" and did just that. He also called the engagement a "bitter stalemate" which is a far cry from the World Eaters and Angron smacking the Wolves and Russ around.

The means by which the Wolves isolate Angron is key to showing who was actually martially superior. And that is the information that is missing from the story.

I said that I would be just as disappointed if the legions roles were reversed. It is going to be just like the rumor started about the Ultramarines absorbing the Lost Legions. People are going to hang onto the parts that don't matter (Like Angron did) and miss out on what was actually being said. Especially the part were Lorgar bashes Angron for not seeing that he lost. Just like when Lorgar told his men repeating the rumor that is was not true. The internet has a good memory when it come to things that are misunderstood.

Not sure how this ended up as a Space Wolves vs. World Eaters bitchfight but back on topic... I have to say I listened to this as an audiobook [as I do most of the Black Library stuff] so this may affect my judgment. I listen to them while I run but my expectations are very low - if they take my mind off running for a bit then great [and at times this one did just that]. However I was underwhelmed for the following reasons;

In Know No Fear there is a running subplot where the cabal is gathering the purpetuals for some reason. Well of the one in Know No Fear we know the reason but the girl didn't really make sence...yet.

Also have you seen how people on B&C are kissing ADB-s arse? I mean I noticed when someone is trying to imply some critique, immidiately gets thrashed by his fanpack....
I m just happy we have dakka...

 Garvy wrote:
Also have you seen how people on B&C are kissing ADB-s arse? I mean I noticed when someone is trying to imply some critique, immidiately gets thrashed by his fanpack....
I m just happy we have dakka...

Oh was just going to post this!

If you follow any of the topics ADB is involved in at the B&C or about his books, he has so many nuthuggers ready to white knight for him it is pathetic. To actually see people openly dislike his writing without a rush of defenders to shower praises and attack the critic is refreshing.

 Stonerhino wrote:
For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. .

Like that time Konrad Curze was able to gain the advantage and choke the Lion in a brawl with his bare hands, right?

The Lion was holding back in that fight, right?

IMO Betrayer was the best HH book so far.

Maybe books about giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns are a little crude for your sophisticated pallets.The way you guys nitpick these books tells me 40k books might be slightly beneath you.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. .

Like that time Konrad Curze was able to gain the advantage and choke the Lion in a brawl with his bare hands, right?

The Lion was holding back in that fight, right?

Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.

Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.

What was I thinking.

************
Lets not let this degrade into an ADB bash fest.

Edit:

 Deathshead420 wrote:
IMO Betrayer was the best HH book so far.

Maybe books about giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns are a little crude for your sophisticated pallets.The way you guys nitpick these books tells me 40k books might be slightly beneath you.

Actually some of the books have real depth. If you are looking no deeper then "Giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns ". Then you sir are missing out.

 Stonerhino wrote:
Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.

Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.

What was I thinking.

I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.

Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.

What was I thinking.

I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.

Good thing my arguement is "We are not given enough information to truely judge the fight. So it is a worthless piece of fluff that will be latched onto to say that Russ IS really that weak". That's why I changed my opinion of the fight from "A way to show how good Angron is" to "It's a way to bring Russ down".

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Stonerhino wrote:
Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.

Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.

What was I thinking.

I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.

Yes it is...@Shonerhino said it best,and I'm thinking to post his comments (If he allow me) to adb on B&C...
Also there is a freaking authors note which shows that Russ wasn't all in
+ there is Angron saying

Funny thing is how some people are "slow" (like Angron) and some people are trying to explain chapter (like Lorgar did)...Lol

Let's not get personal.

Remember Rule No.1




Thank you.

Ok, Angron obviously wasn't fighting to kill either, because then Russ would be dead. At the time, Angron was still more or less cognizant of where the line was.

Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?

 Omegus wrote:


Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?

This. Though I'd venture that the fight between the primarchs was, at least at first, to the death or very close to. On angron's side because he is pretty much wired to kill. On Russ' side because Angron's words were probably the harshest condemnation of the emperor and the Imperium not coming straight out of a rebelling, mid-purge world, and being spoken by a Legion Master to boot. Being called a lapdog and a servant of the worst tyrant to sail the stars doesn't make for half-measures.

So yeah, Angron won in pretty much the ways he cared about. The wolves can look pretty and curb-stomp Daemon primarchs without breaking a sweat in their own books later to make up for it.

 Omegus wrote:
Ok, Angron obviously wasn't fighting to kill either, because then Russ would be dead. At the time, Angron was still more or less cognizant of where the line was.

Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?

So what - it was one duel who ended up in brawl in which Russ had him in the end...Also when you fight a gladiator king - who has dueled with people all his life, only way you could win is by outsmarting (which Russ did )...In Arena my money is on Angron,in battlefield Russ 10/10...
Same thing is with the SoS in Prospero...You don't go full on a psyker with just a pocket knife...

That's why I think Magnus could kill Angron without breaking a sweat (superior intellect gazilion times vs raaagh), and Russ also (which is evident in the betrayer)...

Also why Russ stopped ? Simply because he decided that he'd gone to far (as the big E wouldn't be pleased by him returning with Angron's hide unasked)...
Certainly not out of mercy or that lesson theory, simply killing a brother P was to much...
Now you see how Empy was a little prick... Later some P petitioned Angrons termination, but Empy wouldn't hear it....

 Omegus wrote:
This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest

psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?

I did say that I would not like how the fight is presented even if their roles were reveresed.

Anybody who doubts Angron's martial abilities is a fool. But the information we are missing makes the duel meaningless. For one the important parts we do get to see are from a person with a broken mind who is to stuborn to see that events might not be what they seem. Lorgar, points out that his whole idea of how things ended is completely backwards. Magnus, tells us that he would not trust Angron if he told him that "Water was wet". Yet we as the readers are supposed to take his in-universe word on a fight that happened 100 years before which we are told he misinterpreted. That is missing the entire fight besides his ax getting broken, disarming Russ and breaking his sword and winning the brawl. Which the last two are easly explained by Russ drawing him away from his warriors. And thus are not really complementry of Angron's abilities only his failure to understand what's going on around him.

The problem is that the way it writen Russ is just a chump and really shows Angron being foolish rather then either of their martial abilities.

@ the fanboy comment:

2nd ed SW codex page 5 wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the Primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies. He was said to be the most headstrong of the Primarchs but was undoubtedly one of the most brilliant military commanders in an age of great generals.

Leman Russ in the old fluff is easily one of the top tier Primarchs. Not the top of the top but up there. But since the SWs called themselves "Executioners" some of the writers have found it nessessary to degrade them at every turn.

Is it really so bad to want it done well when it is done. I would have no problem with a duel with the same result if it was well writen and clear. For example when Lhork was mussing to himself. Angron pushes Russ back. "Sent flying" is the quote I believe. And you have not once seen me point at that and find fault with it. Its viewed from the outside and is simply a statement of fact. So if you said "Angron was stronger then Russ" based on what Lhork saw I would completely agree.

The duel is nothing like that. That is why I have a problem with it. It does nothing to promote Angron's abilities when you really look at it. But does speaks negatively towards Russ untill you really look at it and reallize it is meaningless.

 DarthMarko wrote:


That's why I think Magnus could kill Angron without breaking a sweat (superior intellect gazilion times vs raaagh), and Russ also (which is evident in the betrayer)...

The only thing evident in Betrayer is that Russ could kill Angron if he has his Legion backing him up. And perhaps if given time to prepare, he could set up some kind of trap or stratagem that lets him win. But one on one, mano-a-mano, Russ lies dying in the dirt like anyone else, except maybe Sanguinius or Horus.

I don't think Magnus would have fared any better, since all the Primarchs seem to have some level of psychic resistance (either innate or built into their armor), and Angron also had the original Nails, which seemed to interfere with psychic intrusion also. Magnus could melt half of Angron's head off, and Angron would still be swinging his axe. Then again, I suppose Magnus could open up the earth under Angron and have the big dumbass tumble in (something Russ wouldn't fall for, no pun intended).

Keep in mind that, psyker resistance be damned, even Lorgar could mentally compel Horus to do his bidding. Magnus proved capable of psychically dominating Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy, while manifesting as a psychic avatar.

I'm pretty sure part of that psychic compulsion was Enuncia, rather than just pure psychic dominance. Lorgar also struggled against the Communion of World Eater psykers.