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2012/12/18 00:59:01
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Emo is Corax, Dorn suffered a breakdown from battle-fatigue. My statement about RG stand the test of time as he seems to be for unknown reasons the only guy suited to inherit the Galaxy.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/18 01:02:46
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Beaviz81 wrote: Emo is Corax, Dorn suffered a breakdown from battle-fatigue. My statement about RG stand the test of time as he seems to be for unknown reasons the only guy suited to inherit the Galaxy.
Dorn became an emo too, after the Horus Heresy. His opposition not just to the Codex Astartes and probably to Imperium Secundus doesn't make any sense, especially when you consider those two offered the best path to the future for the Imperium and that Dorn along with Malcador were among those responsible for killing the old Imperium. As for Guilliman inheriting the galaxy, true, but Horus (had he and should have remained loyal) was the true heir to the Emperor's legacy.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 01:24:20
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I would think that if the Big E would have just revealed to Magnus earlier what he was doing back on Terra instead of chastising him publicly for the use of warp power the fall of the thousand sons may have had a different outcome.
It would have been pretty rad to have Magnus on the side of the Emperor during the siege of Terra.
Heralds of Rot CSM 4000 pts
"In short there is no Order only Chaos eternal so lament and be quelled with fear if you serve the False Emperor or accept the gifts bestowed by the pantheon of the four gods and rejoice as the galaxy burns." - Unknown Wordbearer
2012/12/18 07:18:55
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Admiral Valerian wrote: Leman Russ. Seriously, he should have been more likely to fall than Magnus.
And Horus simply should not have fallen. I dare say he was among the few Primarchs who could truly be said to be the Emperor's sons, the others being Sanguinius, Dorn, Magnus, and Guilliman.
Leman Russ is one of the least likely to have ever fallen.
He is Magnus's polar opposite in one regard. Magnus is devil's advocate, Leman Russ mindless obedience.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I'm sorry but Magnus is the most obvious traitor of them all.
Compared to Lorgar, Angron, Curze, or Perturabo? No he isn't, lol. Probably Mortarion as well. Notice how four of these five went traitor without Chaos having to directly influence them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 07:20:31
2012/12/18 09:51:19
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Lorgar, Angron, Mortarion, and Kurze would all have fallen even had Horus remained loyal. Lorgar and Angron's mentalities are simply incompatible with the Emperor's ideals, Mortarion had a grudge, and Kurze was simply crazy.
As for Magnus, the Emperor should have attached himself to Magnus and the Thousand Sons for longer and personally overhauled their psychic doctrines, the Crimson King and his legion would not have fallen. Perturabo, well, given Angel Exterminatus, he should have been given the chance to build something other than fortresses. As an engineer, Perturabo is infinitely better than Dorn, and with a grander, more down-to-earth, and more solid vision.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 09:52:15
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 11:36:15
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: IMHO Alpharius should not have turned to Horus it just makes no clear sense to me.
I think it would have been cool to see Vulkan turn to Chaos and be all evil and shizzzz.
2nd Edition Chaos Codex gives Alpharius a good reason to rebel.
"When Horus made his pact with Chaos the martial pride of the Alpha Legion was their downfall. The Warmaster was a mighty warrior himself, he commanded armies and fleets and fought at the forefront of the Emperor's wars. By comparison he made the distant Emperor on Terra seem a weak and cowardly individual. The Warmaster was a leader worthy of their respect, the Emperor sought only to exploit Horus's conquests and crush the liberated humans of the galaxy beneath his stifling regime. So the lies were insinuated into the hearts and minds of the Alpha Legion, and if any lie is repeated often enough it begins to be accepted, and once accepted it becomes true."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 11:36:45
The Tick: Everybody was a baby once, Arthur. Oh, sure, maybe not today, or even yesterday. But once. Babies, chum: tiny, dimpled, fleshy mirrors of our us-ness, that we parents hurl into the future, like leathery footballs of hope. And you've got to get a good spiral on that baby, or evil will make an interception.
2012/12/18 13:23:34
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: I'm sorry but Magnus is the most obvious traitor of them all.
Compared to Lorgar, Angron, Curze, or Perturabo? No he isn't, lol. Probably Mortarion as well. Notice how four of these five went traitor without Chaos having to directly influence them.
Sure he is. It's as simple as noting that Magnus cannot help but be influenced by the Warp. Any of Lorgar, Angron, Curze, and Perturabo would have been okay had daddy given them more hugs. With Magnus, who actually got a huge amount of attention from the Emperor, this would not have helped. In fact, we know it just made things worse.
Also, I don't think Mortarion belongs in that group.
Manchu wrote: With Magnus, who actually got a huge amount of attention from the Emperor, this would not have helped. In fact, we know it just made things worse.
Magnus was too influenced by Prosperine culture...the Emperor should have re-molded Magnus' mindset and personally overhauled the Fifteenth Legion's psychic doctrines instead of simply giving Magnus more information and mere warnings.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 14:46:33
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I think he actually trusted Magnus. The reverse, of course, was not true. Not for lack of affection, which is why everyone calls it tragic. Rather, Magnus was simply an arrogant man.
Manchu wrote: I think he actually trusted Magnus. The reverse, of course, was not true. Not for lack of affection, which is why everyone calls it tragic. Rather, Magnus was simply an arrogant man.
Perhaps, from the moment the Primarchs were taken away, their fates were sealed? Now that I think about it, many of them needed a firm hand and direct guidance from the Emperor from when they children - Magnus, Angron, Perturabo, Kurze, Alpharius, etc. Ultimately, the Primarchs were still Human, and as such, they needed their parents (or in the Primarchs' cases, their gene-father) to mold them the right way from the very beginning.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 14:53:07
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
2012/12/18 15:02:44
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
It's my ongoing suspicion that the Emperor struck a deal with the Ruinous Powers to create the Primarchs but that it was ultimately a dupe to distract them so that he could establish an Imperial webway.
Manchu wrote: It's my ongoing suspicion that the Emperor struck a deal with the Ruinous Powers to create the Primarchs but that it was ultimately a dupe to distract them so that he could establish an Imperial webway.
I do like dark twists, willingly barters with chaos to create 20 corrupted sons so that they won't notice his labyrinth plans
Nurgle Daemons blog
http://nurglestally.blogspot.ie/
Chaos Dwarfs 8/5/1
2012/12/18 15:23:53
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: So true. By that same token, Lorgar and Angron would have eventually fallen.
Probably also Magnus.
Yes, Curze was a psycho and would have gone renegade regardless. I hate it when fans of him go "I like him cuz he's BATMAN!", because he's only Batman if Batman would punish jay-walkers by kidnapping their children, and then skinning them alive on television where everyone was forced to watch.
Angron always just needed an excuse, and Lorgar would have discovered the truth eventually and probably propagated a short-lived crusade before getting crushed.
Magnus would inevitably feth something up, too, although I'm pretty sure that if it was anyone other than Russ (or Angron or Curze, I guess) were sent to Prospero, he would have stuck to his first inclination to meekly accept punishment. He and his Legion would have likely been severely admonished and perhaps soul-bound, and would be the Grey Knights-equivalent.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/12/18 15:39:41
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Omegus wrote: because he's only Batman if Batman would punish jay-walkers by kidnapping their children, and then skinning them alive on television where everyone was forced to watch.
You have a way with words, I'll give you that.
I wonder if Magnus would have surrendered to Guilliman or Sanguinius. Sending Russ further baited him, something the Emperor had to have known.
I would love to accept the compliment, but that's basically what we learn in Prince of Crows.
Spoiler:
At one point Curze wistfully remembers how beautiful and ordered he made the planet, and how any crime, no matter how small, was punished by torture and death. His lieutenants tried to object, but he simply didn't understand the problem.
Later on, he and Sevatar have this exchange:
‘Where is the nobility in any of this?’ Sevatar gestured to the streets of Nostramo Quintus around them. ‘You can claim a savage nobility, father, but this is far more savage than noble.’
Curze’s pale lips peeled back from his filed teeth. ‘There was no other way.’
‘No?’ Sevatar answered his father’s snarl with a grin. ‘What other ways did you try?’
‘Sevatar…’
‘Answer me, father. What politics of peace did you teach? What scientific and social illumination did you bring to this society? In your quest for a human utopia, what other ways did you try beyond eating the flesh of stray dogs and skinning people alive?’
‘It. Was. The. Only. Way.’
Sevatar laughed again. ‘The only way to do what? The only way to bring a population to heel? How then did the other primarchs manage it? How has world upon world managed it, without resorting to butchering children and broadcasting their screams across the planetary vox-net?’
‘Their worlds were never as… as serene as mine was.’
‘And the serenity of yours died the first second your back was turned. So tell me again how you succeeded. Tell me again how this all worked perfectly.’
Curze was on him in the time it took to blink. The primarch’s hand wrapped his throat, lifting him from the ground, stealing his breath.
‘You overstep your bounds, First Captain.’
‘How can you lie to me like this?’ Sevatar’s voice was a strangled growl. ‘How can you lie to yourself? I stand here, inside your mind, witnessing a theatre of your own memories. Your way is the Eighth Legion way, now. But it has never been the only way. Just the easiest way.’
So yes, Kurze would literally skin your children on live television if you litered or failed to yield at an intersection.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/18 15:52:24
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/12/18 15:51:08
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Sending Russ was not Empy's finest moment. I sort of take the way that the shamanistic ways of Fenris is different to the warp than the other psychic ways. I mean there are psykers completely untempted by the Ruinous Powers, but they suffer from worse things in return. And having Leman Russ anti-magic impersonated (and a possible hypocrite) go up against the sossery of Magnus was an irresistible lure for the writers.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/18 20:45:45
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: Sure he is. It's as simple as noting that Magnus cannot help but be influenced by the Warp. Any of Lorgar, Angron, Curze, and Perturabo would have been okay had daddy given them more hugs. With Magnus, who actually got a huge amount of attention from the Emperor, this would not have helped. In fact, we know it just made things worse.
Also, I don't think Mortarion belongs in that group.
Define "influenced by the Warp", first of all.
2012/12/18 20:56:54
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
The vast majority of humans exist within the Warp to some degree. But like fish in the ocean, they aren't aware of this. Magnus is the fish who knows he lives in the water. And it's not just that he can't "unsee" the water; he's utterly obsessed with it.
Manchu wrote: The vast majority of humans exist within the Warp to some degree. But like fish in the ocean, they aren't aware of this. Magnus is the fish who knows he lives in the water. And it's not just that he can't "unsee" the water; he's utterly obsessed with it.
And contacted - and seemingly targeted - by Tzeentch (or a powerful warp entity at least), who he also made a pact with.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/12/18 21:05:00
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Yep, that is certainly another big black mark against him. But I was referring more to the inevitably of such black marks. An arrogant, psychically powerful man obsessed with the Warp is bound to run into a daemon eventually.
Manchu wrote: And, in fact, even considering that the Heresy did happen, Magnus fell to Chaos regardless of the Heresy.
Wha? Magnus' fall to Chaos specifically required being placed in a position where he either got direct help form Tzeench, or he and his legion died. Getting stuck in that spot required the use of sorcery to try and save Horus, the use of sorcery to try and warn the Emperor, and the Wolves being sent to Prospero as a result of all that. Without Horus falling, why exactly would Magnus have used such stupidly powerful magics that would wreak havoc on Terra and thus have the Wolves sent after him? Without the Heresy Magnus would still be hanging out on Prospero, waiting for the Emperor to give him a call.
Your take is that Magnus would have fallen because he was arrogent and a psyker. You're ignoring the myriad number of external forces that were acting on Magnus that combined with those traits to eventually lead to his fall.
2012/12/18 21:26:15
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: Clarity in this case apparently has less to do with what I am posting than what you are expecting to read.
I'd say the issue is more that you are not very capable at enunciating your point.
Magnus is arrogant regardless of the Heresy.
True.
Magnus is a psychic titan regardless of the Heresy.
Also true.
The Ruinous Powers exist and take interest in beings like Magnus regardless of the Heresy.
Obviously true.
Magnus's arrogance would be his undoing in any dealings with the Ruinous Powers regardless of the Heresy.
Arguable, but not really relevant at the moment.
And, in fact, even considering that the Heresy did happen, Magnus fell to Chaos regardless of the Heresy.
Oh yeah? Magnus only went past the point of no return during the Battle of Prospero, an event kickstarted off because of the heresy.
Had anyone not Russ been sent to apprehend him, it is probable that that alone would have kept Magnus from going traitor. He'd be sent back to Terra in chains, sure, but still a loyalist.
It is worth noting that, seemingly alone of the Daemon Primartchs, Magnus's mind is largely intact and as it always was, compared to say, Angron or Fulgrim. I think this is important to note that it illustrates that, whatever the reasoning, Magnus's fall to Tzeentch at the end of the day became his old choice, but had events unfolded differently he might not have felt pressed towards making that choice.
2012/12/18 21:35:26
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: Magnus' fall to Chaos specifically required being placed in a position where he either got direct help form Tzeench, or he and his legion died. [...] Your take is that Magnus would have fallen because he was arrogent and a psyker. You're ignoring the myriad number of external forces that were acting on Magnus that combined with those traits to eventually lead to his fall.
My point is that all of these circumstances are the merest contrivances for the Lord of Change, especially when working with such a mind as Magnus's -- a mind that is actively seeking such knowledge. If it wasn't his "dire warning" about Horus, it would have been something else. One way or another, the Wolves would have eventually been sent to Prospero. The Thousand Sons would eventually have been imperiled, or whatever excuse Magnus could use for doing the "unthinkable" without much actual thought. If Tzeentch wanted Magnus, only Magnus himself (and even then probably only in cooperation with the Emperor) could resist. As things stand with Magnus's personality, again regardless of the Heresy, Magnus is not resisting but actively seeking out.
Void__Dragon wrote: I'd say the issue is more that you are not very capable at enunciating your point.
Apparently not. I have answered your other objection.
Void__Dragon wrote: It is worth noting that, seemingly alone of the Daemon Primartchs, Magnus's mind is largely intact and as it always was, compared to say, Angron or Fulgrim.
That is an interesting point. But the question is, has he persevered through his fall or was he always corrupted?
Automatically Appended Next Post: One other thing:
Void__Dragon wrote: Had anyone not Russ been sent to apprehend him, it is probable that that alone would have kept Magnus from going traitor.
By the Edict of Nikaea, when the Emperor said woe to any who broke faith with him and promised to destroy them, Magnus was already a traitor by the time the Wolves were on their way to Prospero. That is why the Wolves were sent in the first place. The issue is, was he contrite? Did he regret his betrayal and want to make amends for it? He almost certainly did, which is why Horus's orders to Russ to kill him was such a brilliant move. But Magnus had already betrayed the Emperor at that point, regardless of the Heresy and regardless of any contrition. He had chosen his own counsel, his fascination with the Warp, over loyalty to his father and that was his true breaking point. Everything that happened afterward, the destruction of Prospero, the Thousand Son's escape, Magnus's allegiance to Horus, are just the consequences, just the pieces falling into place.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/12/18 21:48:38
But Mangus did get direct help from Tzeentch when he was looking for a way to stop the mutation in his sons. He made his bargain with Chaos when he first got his legion.
