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2012/12/18 22:02:40
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: Magnus' fall to Chaos specifically required being placed in a position where he either got direct help form Tzeench, or he and his legion died. [...]
Your take is that Magnus would have fallen because he was arrogent and a psyker. You're ignoring the myriad number of external forces that were acting on Magnus that combined with those traits to eventually lead to his fall.
My point is that all of these circumstances are the merest contrivances for the Lord of Change, especially when working with such a mind as Magnus's -- a mind that is actively seeking such knowledge. If it wasn't his "dire warning" about Horus, it would have been something else. One way or another, the Wolves would have eventually been sent to Prospero. The Thousand Sons would eventually have been imperiled, or whatever excuse Magnus could use for doing the "unthinkable" without much actual thought. If Tzeentch wanted Magnus, only Magnus himself (and even then probably only in cooperation with the Emperor) could resist. As things stand with Magnus's personality, again regardless of the Heresy, Magnus is not resisting but actively seeking out.
"A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island, with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore. The physicist says, "Let's smash the can open with a rock." The chemist says, "Let's build a fire and heat the can first." The economist says, "Let's assume that we have a can-opener..."
You'll have to do better than just assuming that the Wolves would have been sent to burn Prospero one way or another regardless of whether or not the Heresy happened. While the events leading to Prospero might be relatively minor to one such as Tzeench, that doesn't mean that they'd be easy cogs to replace. It took the corruption of Horus to convince Magnus to try and message the Emperor directly, and it took the corupted Horus to change the Wolves' orders from capture to kill. In the alt-history where the Heresy doesn't happen, what exactly would Magnus do that would get the Wolves sent to Prospero with orders to burn it to the ground?
Void__Dragon wrote: I'd say the issue is more that you are not very capable at enunciating your point.
Apparently not. I have answered your other objection.
Void__Dragon wrote: It is worth noting that, seemingly alone of the Daemon Primartchs, Magnus's mind is largely intact and as it always was, compared to say, Angron or Fulgrim.
That is an interesting point. But the question is, has he persevered through his fall or was he always corrupted?
Long story short, my take is that Tzeench, being the Lord of Change, cannot, by his very nature, totally control his servants. There always has to be free will and the potential for another path being taken. Plus, if you say that Magnus was always corrupted, then the whole story of his fall becomes pointless. Inevitability doesn't make for a compelling story.
2012/12/18 22:07:41
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
"A physicist, a chemist and an economist are stranded on an island, with nothing to eat. A can of soup washes ashore. The physicist says, "Let's smash the can open with a rock." The chemist says, "Let's build a fire and heat the can first." The economist says, "Let's assume that we have a can-opener..."
LOL cheers Dave !!!
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/18 22:09:46
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: It took the corruption of Horus to convince Magnus to try and message the Emperor directly
But what you have to realize is that the corruption of Horus and the message to the Emperor are just arbitrary pieces. The underlying meaning is Magnus's corruption. As ChaosGirl points out, this was already underway even though Magnus did not himself know it. So if the question is, what would it take to make Magnus fall? then we don't need to look to Horus or Russ. All the necessary ingredients were present in Magnus's own personality and talents on the one hand and in Tzeentch's interest on the other. Everything else is merely incident, although engineered. It could thus all be configured differently, as per the circumstances.
daveNYC wrote: Long story short, my take is that Tzeench, being the Lord of Change, cannot, by his very nature, totally control his servants. There always has to be free will and the potential for another path being taken. Plus, if you say that Magnus was always corrupted, then the whole story of his fall becomes pointless. Inevitability doesn't make for a compelling story.
Magnus embraced Tzeentch again and again, unknowingly at first, knowingly later, but always of his own free will. The compelling nature of the story is exactly that -- how free is free will? How determinative is determinism? As to Magnus's mind, I posed a question -- not an answer.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/12/18 22:21:52
Just for kicks - what do you think modern 40k inquisiton would have done to Magnus, if they knew he made a Faustian deal?
Btw - beauty about Tzeench is that gives you an illusion of a free will,but you are dancing to his tune all the time....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 22:13:48
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/18 22:20:49
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
He would carved "I love NY" on pure warp enegy...I can dig that, LOL..
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/18 22:34:14
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: It took the corruption of Horus to convince Magnus to try and message the Emperor directly
But what you have to realize is that the corruption of Horus and the message to the Emperor are just arbitrary pieces. The underlying meaning is Magnus's corruption.
So Magnus was already corrupt and was going to fall regardless. So in the absence of Horus falling and Magnus breaking open Terra, at some point he would have gone down to breakfast and just decided to, what, make like Lorgar and start getting his daemon on? You make it sound as though all Tzeench needed to do was just chillax and Magnus would have fallen into his lap, which begs the question why the actual events that led to Magnus' fall required such a degree of manipulation.
I mean you're labeling the turning of Horus and the message to the Emperor as 'arbitrary pieces', as if you could substitute the corruption of the Warmaster with causing a shipment of socks to Prospero to go missing or something.
2012/12/18 22:40:17
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: So Magnus was already corrupt and was going to fall regardless.
Regardless of the Heresy, yes. He had free will. But he also has a personality. What it would take for Magnus not to fall is for him not to be Magnus. That was the chance of Nikaea. His arrogance made taking that chance impossible. (Although, I will say again, I suspect the Emperor was kind of setting him up, too.)
daveNYC wrote: You make it sound as though all Tzeench needed to do was just chillax and Magnus would have fallen into his lap, which begs the question why the actual events that led to Magnus' fall required such a degree of manipulation.
I mean you're labeling the turning of Horus and the message to the Emperor as 'arbitrary pieces', as if you could substitute the corruption of the Warmaster with causing a shipment of socks to Prospero to go missing or something.
To Tzeentch, this little galaxy and its greatest turmoils are like the crossword in the Sunday paper. And to Magnus, the quest for knowledge is all-important. And are you seriously asking why Tzeentch would prefer a convoluted method over a direct one? :/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 22:40:34
I know he's not a primarch, but if the theory that Malcador was one of the warlords on Terra that the Big E brought to heel, I'm surprised he didn't turn to chaos, then again, who is to say he didn't...
Anyway, when it comes to loyalist primarchs, I vote Ferrus Manus, He's back story shows he has an interest in constant competition and dislikes unity (hence the structure of the Iron Hands and why he never united his homeworld). Constant competition for the sake of the pursuit of "perfection"? I could see Slaanesh easily preying on that and Khorne, though a bit more difficult, could sway Ferrus into believing constant war would eventually lead the best man to become the last man standing admist the carnage
Spoiler:
As for the deliverance lost and Alpha Legion meddling with Corax rebuilding Raven Guard. I think it explains fairly well why Alpha Legion failed their mission. The Cabal was vehement in trying to get Alpha Legion to destroy the blue prints that Corax was given but Alpharius thought it would be best to actually acquire it as his own somewhere down the line while messing with Corax. So why would this possibly lead to failure on Alpha's part? Perhaps since Alpha Legion didn't destroy it outright, Corax was able to rebuild Raven Guard despite it being greatly made up of failures and monsters. These failures and monsters still could fight (barely in many a case, but fight nonetheless) which many have been the tiny pebble that diverted the path of the mighty river. This failure of a fighting force may have demanded the attention of precious forces of the traitors that could have been dedicated to the siege on terra whose presence could have been the difference between horus winning or losing. So with the Alpha legion doing what they did - disobeying the cabal - they failed in making the cabal's wishes a reality, which could probably explain why Alpharius led the legion on a fairly brutal campaign til his supposed (and I'm beginning to think probable) death at the hands of Guilliman. And with Alpharius out of the way, Omegon could pursue his own goals (Going on a limb and saying that he's possibly shooting for a future where mankind and chaos live "harmoniously together, probably could be said that Alpharius wanted what was best for the galaxy while Omegon wanted what was best for humanity). Why the hell I put this here, I have no fricking clue.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
2012/12/19 14:22:15
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: So Magnus was already corrupt and was going to fall regardless.
Regardless of the Heresy, yes. He had free will. But he also has a personality. What it would take for Magnus not to fall is for him not to be Magnus. That was the chance of Nikaea. His arrogance made taking that chance impossible. (Although, I will say again, I suspect the Emperor was kind of setting him up, too.)
daveNYC wrote: You make it sound as though all Tzeench needed to do was just chillax and Magnus would have fallen into his lap, which begs the question why the actual events that led to Magnus' fall required such a degree of manipulation.
I mean you're labeling the turning of Horus and the message to the Emperor as 'arbitrary pieces', as if you could substitute the corruption of the Warmaster with causing a shipment of socks to Prospero to go missing or something.
To Tzeentch, this little galaxy and its greatest turmoils are like the crossword in the Sunday paper. And to Magnus, the quest for knowledge is all-important. And are you seriously asking why Tzeentch would prefer a convoluted method over a direct one? :/
We're coming at it from completely different points of view. I'm holding that Magnus required that specific situation on Prospero to fall, thus the century plus worth of manipulation needed to get to that point. You hold that Magnus would have gone to the dark side regardless, so the mess on Prospero was just Tzeench 'doing it with style' so to speak.
I'm also not sure how you're managing to reconcile Magnus having free will with the statement that he was always going to fall to Chaos. If free will doesn't allow you to chose to avoid damnation then it's not nearly all it's cracked up to be.
2012/12/19 15:16:20
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
daveNYC wrote: so the mess on Prospero was just Tzeench 'doing it with style' so to speak.
I don't think you understand Tzeentch. Tzeentch wasn't just "doing it with style" as if there was some less stylistic way that it could have happened. The nature of Tzeentch is towards complexity. It's not a person that can just decide to be straight forward. That's the equivalent of saying "couldn't Khorne just calm down a little?"
daveNYC wrote: I'm also not sure how you're managing to reconcile Magnus having free will with the statement that he was always going to fall to Chaos. If free will doesn't allow you to chose to avoid damnation then it's not nearly all it's cracked up to be.
Fair warning, this is going to get really complicated.
Magnus was free to avoid his fate just as much as he wasn't free to do so. Free will is a harder thing to exercise than you seem to think. There was no single point where Magnus was presented with: "Do you want to fall to Chaos? YES/NO." Rather, his fall unfolded over time. Perhaps a better way to put it, to avoid the confusion of linear-biased language, is that his corruption emerged out of time.
The word "fall" implies an endpoint on a timeline. Linear time is not a helpful way to analyze Magnus, except inasmuch as he was blinded to the truth by an overly linear conception of time. But if we were to plot a timeline of his "fall", we can locate three main points: (1) his pact with "something in the Warp" to halt the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, (2) his decision to violate the Edict of Nikaea, (3) him calling out to that same "something in the Warp" for deliverance as he lost to Russ. Now, and this is the hard part, imagine the line of the timeline folded back on itself so that each of the three points overlap, becoming the same point. I think that's a little closer to the Tzeentchian POV and the best way to take into account Magnus's "free will."
What I'm trying to accomplish by folding the timeline like this is to show that exercising free will is not merely "historical" in the linear sense. Our decisions are conditioned not only by our will and motivation but also by their consequences -- and not only are the consequences obscure but also the motivations. This is a key aspect to Magnus's personality symbolized by him being a "cyclops." Magnus has one eye, the eye that looks to the future. Although his eyesight is far superior to that of almost all humanity, it is still lacking and especially because he himself lacks the eye that looks to the past. Magnus's concern is always with what will be rather than what has gone before: what will befall my Legion in the wake of the flesh change, what will befall the Imperium in the wake of Horus's treachery, what will befall humanity in the wake of the Council of Nikaea?
For Tzeentch, a being of the Warp, the future and past and present are coterminous, like our folded timeline. For Tzeentch, the "moment" of its pact with Magnus is also the "moment" of its salvation of the Thousand Sons from the Space Wolves -- except, of course, that I'm using the word "moment" in a purely metaphorical way, as our conception of linear time doesn't literally apply to the Warp. Magnus is blind to the coterminous aspect of these "historical" points because he is obsessed with his ability to shape the future according to his will through the power of his mind. The best way that I can put it is, Magnus does not perceive that he is falling; he only perceives that he has not fallen yet. Tzeentch, and the Emperor to some extent, can see him as he is becoming. I suppose you can liken it to the relationship between an acorn and a tree. When Tzeentch looks at an acorn in realspace, it sees the nut and the sapling and the tree and the mulch all at once. It's not that Tzeentch "knows the future" -- which is the secret power that Magnus wants so badly. Rather, Tzeentch perceives all possibility and transformation.
Despite all his study, one-eyed Magnus failed to cultivate this ability and so did not accurately understand his peril. He did not understand how the pact he made to save his Legion was the acorn to the the tree of his corruption -- or who knows it might have gone further back than that. All Magnus's knowledge was in fact ignorance. Could he have averted his corruption? Yes -- but it's so hard that it doesn't look "free" in the superficial sense. This is what I meant earlier by saying, Magnus could have avoided damnation by ceasing to be Magnus. Magnus was doomed to fall; but had he completely reformed his personality, completely changed his point of view, he might have noticed the danger. That still means that "Magnus was doomed to fall." The man who averted his fall would no longer be Magnus.
And here we have the ultimate irony, the Tzeentchian pièce de résistance. The thing that could have saved Magnus, in a word, was change.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/12/19 15:35:36
Manchu the corruption of Magnus started earlier. He often ventured too far into the warp even before Empy came along with his ride of the week. So it's basically four steps, not just the three you presented. With that exception I agree with you.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 15:30:33
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Yeah Manchu, and even if your changes the parameters. Magnus was an addict. It's like an alcoholic might not drink today, or tomorrow. But generally they sooner or later fall for the temptation and the Warp was that for Magnus. He couldn't help it. And free will is quite sidelined as the only thing keeping an addict from going for his or her addiction is willpower, and that will erode sooner or later. Of course this is for addicts without any treatment of their addiction.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 16:06:14
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Empy wanting Magnus dead? Wouldn't it be simpler just sending Leman Russ? And before the Thousand Sons were functional as a Space Marine Legion? I sort of think Empy should have kept a closer eye on Magnus. He was his addicted son. I sort of assumed Magnus kept his addiction hidden, at least a while and Empy weren't like a normal dad. Around following his sons. They were all grown up with virtues and vices by the time he found them, so he had to improvise with them.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 18:08:06
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
I think the Emperor sold Magnus his first crack rock actually. Even before they met in person, their two minds met in the Warp and the Emperor began to show Magnus some of its secrets. Also, I don't thin the Emperor wanted Magnus dead. I think he wanted to imprison Magnus in the Golden Throne. And he needed a reason to punish him.
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: IMHO Alpharius should not have turned to Horus it just makes no clear sense to me.
I think it would have been cool to see Vulkan turn to Chaos and be all evil and shizzzz.
Of all people, Horus turning to Chaos DOES NOT make sense at all. Even if he had been stabbed by Erebus' 'magic dagger', someone as close to the Emperor as he was should have responded to the vision with "Hmmm...and? Is this it, void predators of the Warp? You expect me to believe my father would do this? You expect me to betray him with this...lie? Illusion? You apparently do not know me at all. Kill me if you wish, but Horus Lupercal has no interest in your threats or offers."
I second that.
WTF happened there? that story I know makes no sense, you get a vision of "the future where you are shunned" and respond by becoming a traitor and massacring countless number of people, some of your own brothers included, to prevent it?
Even a slowed chicken could have realized that's one very, very dumb reaction and an obvious "self fulfilling prophecy" trap.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2012/12/19 18:46:38
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Hahaha Machu. I buy it. Your argument is hilarious. And that's the basic of my interpretations. For me when I read something I think. "Can it get me to laugh?" And if yes. Then it is. "Can I have a rational explanation for it?" If yes, then I go for it. Hehe but that paints Empy as worse than dads I have seen on several squicky TV-series who whore out their daughters and such, as this is pretty much Chaotic Evil from Empy.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 19:41:56
Subject: Re:What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Bloodfrenzy187 wrote: IMHO Alpharius should not have turned to Horus it just makes no clear sense to me.
I think it would have been cool to see Vulkan turn to Chaos and be all evil and shizzzz.
Of all people, Horus turning to Chaos DOES NOT make sense at all. Even if he had been stabbed by Erebus' 'magic dagger', someone as close to the Emperor as he was should have responded to the vision with "Hmmm...and? Is this it, void predators of the Warp? You expect me to believe my father would do this? You expect me to betray him with this...lie? Illusion? You apparently do not know me at all. Kill me if you wish, but Horus Lupercal has no interest in your threats or offers."
I second that.
WTF happened there? that story I know makes no sense, you get a vision of "the future where you are shunned" and respond by becoming a traitor and massacring countless number of people, some of your own brothers included, to prevent it?
Even a slowed chicken could have realized that's one very, very dumb reaction and an obvious "self fulfilling prophecy" trap.
But its a vision he had no real reason to see as wrong. The Emperor had left Horus, his closest son (and all the other Primarch's), to head off to Terra with no explanation to why.
I don't think Horus' fall was that bad. Sure it wasn't great, but it wasn't that bad IMHO:
Horus was under masses of pressure, trying to run the galaxy and please everyone whilst being undermined by the High Lords of Terra, his brothers and even Remembrancers.
He had also just been attacked by a lost human civilisation whom he had connected and bonded with, but - through the machinations of Erebus - he would have to exterminate: he was seeming to question the great crusade.
Additionally, he had been presented with gods, the existence of which The Emperor denied (it was this that seemingly swayed Lorgar too) and the means to achieve his own Galaxy, rather than the Emperors. The Emperor's which he had been led to question and he had seen the darker side and flaws of (he'd been around The Emperor the longest after all, probably also having witnessed the fate of the missing Legions). Furthermore, its fairly well stated IIRC that Horus was the most ambitious of the Primarks.
If you combine this with a mortal wound and being exposed to the full power of Chaos, I can kind of understand why Horus rebelled.
I mean, we don't even know if the vision shown to Horus was actually what the Emperor planned or not...
I think his fall showed how human Horus was, personally.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2012/12/19 19:49:28
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
This was Graham McNeill's most egregious work if only because it was the most important. Horus falling does make sense in a way, just not the way Mr. McNeill wrote it out. The bare bones of Horus's fall is actually very simple to imagine: Horus is the leader not only of mere mortals but also of his fellow demi-gods. He is second only to the Emperor himself. And when the Emperor leaves him in charge of everything, the natural question is "am I really second to the Emperor?" The puzzle for Mr. McNeill was how to get from that haunting question to the Heresy. How does doubt become betrayal? Of all the fallen Primarchs, Horus really was the lynchpin (Fulgrim and Mortarion arguably would not have fallen otherwise) and should have been the hardest to corrupt. As things stand, he was easily tricked in a vision. The most you can say for that is, well, he was demi-god lain low, that's got to be traumatic. But then the issue of, what does it take to nearly kill Horus? comes up. And the answer we have for that is also pretty lame.
Beaviz81 wrote: Hehe but that paints Empy as worse than dads I have seen on several squicky TV-series who whore out their daughters and such, as this is pretty much Chaotic Evil from Empy.
Well TBH I don't think it's very funny. I think it's pretty fething sick. But the Emperor has to do what the Emperor has to do. I think we get too hung up on the "father/son" thing. The Emperor no more fathered the Primarchs than I "father" a meal that I cooked. If I started talking about myself as the "father of the meal" people might feel a bit repulsed when I proceeded to eat it. Same with the Primarchs. They were means to ends. The Emperor needed a lens for the Golden Throne. So he made Magnus. And something smiled in the Warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just Dave wrote: I don't think Horus' fall was that bad. Sure it wasn't great, but it wasn't that bad IMHO
We usually agree but ... not on this one.
Just Dave wrote: Horus was under masses of pressure, trying to run the galaxy and please everyone whilst being undermined by the High Lords of Terra, his brothers and even Remembrancers.
(1) As a Primarch, he was designed to do this. (All Emprah Conspiracy Theories aside, for the moment.)
(2) Things were proceeding smoothly so there was no need to stress out.
Just Dave wrote: He had also just been attacked by a lost human civilisation whom he had connected and bonded with, but - through the machinations of Erebus - he would have to exterminate: he was seeming to question the great crusade.
These are just more bad qualities about McNeill's story. Horus bonded with these backward mortals? I still can't believe that. And what basis did he suddenly have to question the Great Crusade? Exterminating non-compliant populations never bothered him before. In fact, he had exhibited complete, voluntary, and thoughtful agreement with the Great Crusade up until descending to sordid huts of this one, completely uncompelling mud ball.
Just Dave wrote: Additionally, he had been presented with gods, the existence of which The Emperor denied (it was this that seemingly swayed Lorgar too) and the means to achieve his own Galaxy, rather than the Emperors.
If the Emperor is not a god, as Horus definitely believed, then he had no reason to believe that the Ruinous Powers were gods. They're all just very powerful beings. Horus should have had no problem concluding "those are some powerful Warp aliens." But that's a contrivance of 40k: if it lives in the materium and is not human, we call it xenos; if it lives in the immaterium and is not human, we call it daemon. I'm truly baffled that the Primarchs were surprised to find sentience in the Warp. I can understand their surprise that Emperor did not tell them about such sentience but that's really not getting us from a doubt to a betrayal.
Just Dave wrote: If you combine this with a mortal wound and being exposed to the full power of Chaos, I can kind of understand why Horus rebelled.
Already addressed why the wound thing is lame. As to "the full power of Chaos," it hardly seems so: he just had a vision. A kind of unbelievable vision, really. And he just totally bought it.
Just Dave wrote: I think his fall showed how human Horus was, personally.
I think it made him seem like nothing more than the plot device that he had always been. The only difference is that it's okay for him to be a plot device in the background. It's just gak for him to be a plot device in the foreground.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/19 20:03:00
Honestly Machu, if the opinion disturbs you. Then you shouldn't hold it. I'm of the opinion that GW makes a game, a game shall be funny. If it churns your stomach you should really change it, if only for medical reasons. I can see your reasons and even support them, but if you feel uncomfortable I think you shall reconsider your opinion if only for medical reasons. If you think something is ulcer-inducing or too cruel then you might take things a bit too seriously. Just MHO.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 20:20:49
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Nothing in a BL novel is going to give me an ulcer. I take that back. Graham McNeill's description of the fall of Horus might do. But I pretty much already take your advise of that score. When I think of the fall of Horus, I think -- well, it has to be something besides what McNeill wrote. And I haven't come up with any specific scenario yet but then again BL doesn't pay me to write novels, either.
The word "fall" implies an endpoint on a timeline. Linear time is not a helpful way to analyze Magnus, except inasmuch as he was blinded to the truth by an overly linear conception of time. But if we were to plot a timeline of his "fall", we can locate three main points: (1) his pact with "something in the Warp" to halt the flesh change of the Thousand Sons, (2) his decision to violate the Edict of Nikaea, (3) him calling out to that same "something in the Warp" for deliverance as he lost to Russ. Now, and this is the hard part, imagine the line of the timeline folded back on itself so that each of the three points overlap, becoming the same point. I think that's a little closer to the Tzeentchian POV and the best way to take into account Magnus's "free will."
I'm not sure if that third point takes place in the HH timeline. The novel seems to indicate that Magnus channelled the last of his physical essense into a spell that saved his Legion, but given his might as a psyker, he survived in an ethereal warp form (much like the Emperor is supposedly going to when his physical form finally succumbs). Certainly the old Index Astartes explicitly stated this, but this was also when Magnus was literally a Cyclops, the Council of Nikea made a distinction between psychic powers and sorcery, and Russ was the one to convince the Emperor that Magnus needed be destroyed.
If anything, the third step would be when Magnus accepted help from that "something" (something he perceived as utterly inferior to him and completely under his control, or even deluding himself with notions of it being a benevolent entity) to force his way into the Webway.
This is a key aspect to Magnus's personality symbolized by him being a "cyclops." Magnus has one eye, the eye that looks to the future. Although his eyesight is far superior to that of almost all humanity, it is still lacking and especially because he himself lacks the eye that looks to the past. Magnus's concern is always with what will be rather than what has gone before: what will befall my Legion in the wake of the flesh change, what will befall the Imperium in the wake of Horus's treachery, what will befall humanity in the wake of the Council of Nikaea?
I would agree with this, I always felt that Tzeench's price of an eye for "saving" the Legion was really him taking away Magnus' perspective (weak pun somewhat intended). He could no longer see the forest for the trees, so to speak.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/12/19 20:57:36
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
For me the reason for taking your interpretation of the Magnus - Empy-relationship is that Empy is supposed to be the big good Machu. And him going chaotic evil instead is just an irony I can't find not morbidly hilarious. Of course I love thinking of Empy and his demi-gods as flawed and imperfect. Even Empy who I think of as the ultimate Mary Sue made scores of mistakes, and that's what really appeals to me, virtues makes the man, mistakes makes the story. If I want a boring invincible hero I watch Streetfighter.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/19 20:58:22
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: I think the Emperor sold Magnus his first crack rock actually. Even before they met in person, their two minds met in the Warp and the Emperor began to show Magnus some of its secrets. Also, I don't thin the Emperor wanted Magnus dead. I think he wanted to imprison Magnus in the Golden Throne. And he needed a reason to punish him.
Given that the Emperor thought he was showing his son the wider warp, when Magnus was already swimming in it since childhood, the more apt metaphor is that the Emperor offered Magnus a line of coke, when Magnus had already been cooking rocks in his basement.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2012/12/19 21:16:43
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Manchu wrote: (3) him calling out to that same "something in the Warp" for deliverance as he lost to Russ
I'm not sure if that third point takes place in the HH timeline. The novel seems to indicate that Magnus channelled the last of his physical essense into a spell that saved his Legion, but given his might as a psyker, he survived in an ethereal warp form (much like the Emperor is supposedly going to when his physical form finally succumbs).
Doesn't it come out to the same thing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/19 21:38:32
Manchu wrote: I think the Emperor sold Magnus his first crack rock actually. Even before they met in person, their two minds met in the Warp and the Emperor began to show Magnus some of its secrets. Also, I don't thin the Emperor wanted Magnus dead. I think he wanted to imprison Magnus in the Golden Throne. And he needed a reason to punish him.
Given that the Emperor thought he was showing his son the wider warp, when Magnus was already swimming in it since childhood, the more apt metaphor is that the Emperor offered Magnus a line of coke, when Magnus had already been cooking rocks in his basement.
LOL and ROFL - this is the funniest metaphor I've ever heard....now my stomach hurts...
btw that Horus fall (really bad writen thingy)......x4...
And in " the Betrayer " Lorgar so much pisses Magnus with that simple facts, that he shines like a a-bomb...
Spoiler:
Lorgar stepped closer to the sorcerer, his once-warm eyes now colder than fool’s gold. ‘Tell me, brother, whose Legion is trapped in the Great Eye, devolving into maggots while the god of Change laughs into infinity? Tell me whose physical form was broken over Leman Russ’s knee because he decided at the last moment that he wouldn’t accept his punishment like an obedient son after all? You didn’t commit to the fight, nor did you surrender and come to heel. Instead, you wasted your Legion and your life’s work in half-hearted capitulation. You think I act in madness? Look to your own sins, hypocrite. And look to your sons, while there is still something left of them.’
He shook his head, taking joy in what he was saying. ‘Mark my words, Magnus, if you do not act soon, your Legion and all that you worked so hard to create will be dust.’
He later even tells him to embrace Tzeench, and that they are all changing (becoming dp),so Magnus's turning point is yet to come....I'think
If anything, the third step would be when Magnus accepted help from that "something" (something he perceived as utterly inferior to him and completely under his control, or even deluding himself with notions of it being a benevolent entity) to force his way into the Webway.
Or simply said - hubris... Funny, how nobody ever mentions that "push" when he was flying through the ether...I'm glad somebody remebers that...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 01:51:11
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
2012/12/20 01:54:57
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Marko try to look back at what Machu wrote earlier. The three points. I just added the first point and pointed out that Magnus was an addict. And even though Machu added the insane point that Empy basically pimped out Magnus, I liked the point as insane and witty (I wasn't aware of his feelings at that point) enough to work.
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
2012/12/20 02:04:40
Subject: What Primarchs should have gone to Chaos but did not?
Beaviz81 wrote: Marko try to look back at what Machu wrote earlier. The three points. I just added the first point and pointed out that Magnus was an addict. And even though Machu added the insane point that Empy basically pimped out Magnus, I liked the point as insane and witty (I wasn't aware of his feelings at that point) enough to work.
I' know , I'm still laughing, but interesting theory (which I don't think is true).....
So if I get this straight...
Empy:
1. I will make a junkie out of you
2. you'll be so hooked up, that eventually it will cost you, and I will punish you.....
3. when I'm over with punishment, and your brain is fried, I' will use you as a living battery
So emperor was a drug dealer and a pimp....LOL guys this is the funniest moment on dakka
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 02:12:03
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
