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Hahahahahaha Marko. That is bloody hilarious and partly why I support the claim of Machu. Excuse me, I'm gonna roll around having convulsions of laughter for the next 24 hours.

It's hilarious, which is partly a reason for me to think the way I think about anything in 40k.

For as much of the DA's that turned to Chaos it has always surprised me that the Lion didn't have something to do with this.
I would have believed that he was corrupted to a extent for this to happen. Just my opinion though

@Beaviz81.... I'm still laughing...my girlfriend is asking me WTF are you laughing like a maniac (I woke her up)....Ooooooo sweeeet God-Emperor...still can't stop....

No wonder Marko my friend. Insanity is so often funny made flesh. And seeing people with the same sense of humor as myself is simply glorious. Too bad you ain't more active in the Dakka-Fiction-part, I would consider you great there.

Of course Manchu despite me laughing mercilessly at your points, I still am willing to follow them, so please don't ban us. We mean no harm.

Ty friend...
@manchu knows we are just joking...but culmination of this thread is where great ocean is compared with cigarettes, alcohol, coke & meth

Dear God I think I pied myself. This has been a true laugh-riot. I'm 31 I'm almost worried about my health due to laughter.

I honestly hope to see you writing some fluff on your own Marko. And well Empy hiring Magnus out for warp seems hilariously doable for some strange reason, but damn is he a horrid daddy. That's really awful yet morbidly hilarious.

Well, I'm not that good at English, so I'll stick to just posting simple stuff...but really, ty for the compliments...

Btw, we are the same age, so we are probably on the same level with humor and general comprehension of the 40k universe...

So cheers friend, we will stay in touch...(now I'm going to put blanket on my face and pretend to be in a venerable dreadnought and go to slumber...very mature on my behalf.)...

CORSAIR CAPTAIN wrote:
Everyone always talks about what Primarch almost stayed loyal and which one should have been treated better but no one seems talk about the Primarchs that logically would have fit in better in the Warmasters camp. My candidates are Corax, the Lion, and Sangiunus. Corax seems far to into the equality sorta stuff really fit in with the Imperium even before the Heresy let alone after, his suicide by Chaos seems pretty close to Konrad's suicide by assassin, my guess is he realized that he fought to defend a Empire that stood against everything he believed in and like Curze tired of the long war. Sanguinus should have sided with Horus, instead he sacrificed his life and the sanity of his legion who spent the next ten thousand years being treated like crap. As far as the Lion, he and his Legion are just too headstrong, they were before the heresy and they remained so after.

I don't see that. Corax didn't kill himself. He just ran off. I couldn't really see him turning to chaos. He seems to more human in respects to his kin. He looked inward and blamed himself for the raptors mutations. Granted he's slightly self centered for assuming its his fault though. Sangiunus doesn't fit the bill to turn either. He's too devoted to the cause of the imperium to turn. His loyalty is assured though his sacrifice. He did it to save humanity. His sons suffered but, it was something that had to be done. He had to confront Horus. The Lion, I could have seen going over. But, being that he sought to try and defend the wider imperium as best he could and not let it be plundered. There is logic in this tactic. He was trying to prevent Horus from using the resources available in that part of the galaxy for the siege on Terra. To that effect he was for the most part successful.

 Lobukia wrote:
I can't see the Khan turning. The Mongolian Empire and its conquests were built on unwavering loyalty from the Tumen commanders to the Great Khan. For Jaghatai to betray his sworn liege would not have been in keeping with either his back-story or the man (Genghis) he was channeling.

As a counterargument, Genghis Khan was unwilling to submit to any man. There was a falling out between him and his blood brother because he was unwilling to play second fiddle

 b1soul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I can't see the Khan turning. The Mongolian Empire and its conquests were built on unwavering loyalty from the Tumen commanders to the Great Khan. For Jaghatai to betray his sworn liege would not have been in keeping with either his back-story or the man (Genghis) he was channeling.

As a counterargument, Genghis Khan was unwilling to submit to any man. There was a falling out between him and his blood brother because he was unwilling to play second fiddle

True, but Jaghatai (Subotai, anyone) isn't a commander of governments, he's a conqueror of nations and a destroyer of legions. I should have had said Jaghatai is one half GK and one half Subotai. Regardless, he has already submitted, and once submission is given, it is ironclad in this culture/persona

The Khan is the good guy version of Angron.

 Manchu wrote:
These are just more bad qualities about McNeill's story. Horus bonded with these backward mortals? I still can't believe that.

That was from Horus Rising, not False Gods, and as such was Abnett's work.

And really, it wasn't so much that he bonded with the Interex, he just tried so hard to improve upon the Great Crusade, taking the Interex's example to heart (And he frankly should, the Emperor's method towards conquering the galaxy and fighting Chaos is idiotic, the Interex have a much more intelligent method), only to see all that effort come to nothing due to forces he couldn't control.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That was from Horus Rising, not False Gods, and as such was Abnett's work.

I thought Dave was referring to the Davinites, not that Interex scum.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That was from Horus Rising, not False Gods, and as such was Abnett's work.

I thought Dave was referring to the Davinites, not that Interex scum.

Nope, Interex.

Can you explain what you mean by "bonded" then?

General definition of bonded: formed a connection with, developed a relationship, grew to like, respected, didn't see as notably divergent and wouldn't want to exterminate... Abnett did a pretty good job of displaying Horus' emotions/anguish IMHO.

No, I understand what the word "bonded" means.

Rather I am asking for evidence for the statement. I know Horus thought they were human enough to talk with (in contrast to Abaddon) but that hardly makes a bond.

 Manchu wrote:
No, I understand what the word "bonded" means.

Rather I am asking for evidence for the statement. I know Horus thought they were human enough to talk with (in contrast to Abaddon) but that hardly makes a bond.

Well, I haven't read the book for a while - and I don't have it to hand right now - but as I recall, Abnett basically showed Horus' personal connection to the Interex and that they were both a formidable race and challenge, so basically Erebus' manipulation that forced them to war was a bit of a kick in the nuts for Horus.

Afraid I can't really provide quotes or passages...

Oh, I'm not necessarily looking for citations so much as anecdotes. I can agree that the fact that Horus tried to make peace instead of war during his first campaign as Warmaster is noteworthy -- and it's especially noteworthy given that it catastrophically failed. And we could even speculate that Horus's betrayal was ultimately a sublimation of his own fear of failure onto the Emperor. But that's just not on the pages of False Gods. All we have in that book is a wounded Warmaster who is either extremely gullible or decided to betray the Emperor even before his vision quest.

In Horus Rising (just reread it last week), Horus is talking with the Mornville about the interex. Abaddon wants war, but Horus states that he doesnt want to fight a war with these people because he realizes that these people are so similar to them. He believes that they can be brought into the fold without being destroyed, and he tries to avoid the waste of life. That is why he goes to the ceremony unarmed. That is why he is basically forced out of the chambers after all hell breaks loose. He is still trying to save negotiations until the very end when they make their "last stand".

So we're getting into the argument of Horus not falling to chaos now?

 ENOZONE wrote:
So we're getting into the argument of Horus not falling to chaos now?

Makes a change from the usual 'Magnus being hard done by' argument, but yeah, its off-topic...

Anyway it's pretty astounding how many did betray The Emperor so I don't think any more should have. If I had to pick though sometimes I wonder about that Lion guy. He seems a little suspicious.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Anyway it's pretty astounding how many did betray The Emperor so I don't think any more should have. If I had to pick though sometimes I wonder about that Lion guy. He seems a little suspicious.

So many people have said this in this thread, and yet I really don't see why. He's not likeable, but then so many other loyalists aren't either.

 Manchu wrote:
Oh, I'm not necessarily looking for citations so much as anecdotes. I can agree that the fact that Horus tried to make peace instead of war during his first campaign as Warmaster is noteworthy -- and it's especially noteworthy given that it catastrophically failed. And we could even speculate that Horus's betrayal was ultimately a sublimation of his own fear of failure onto the Emperor. But that's just not on the pages of False Gods. All we have in that book is a wounded Warmaster who is either extremely gullible or decided to betray the Emperor even before his vision quest.

I wouldn't say Horus was particularly gullible in False Gods, just a massively arrogant douche.

"Whoa what? You're saying in the future, I am not feared, respected, and lauded as the most awesome guy in the galaxy? THAT'S fething bs."

Lion wasn't considered as a "half traitor" in the beginning...That is BL -s work mostly...or 40k character centric soap opera IMHO...

I was under the impression that the sources for the Lion being disloyal was Fallen Angels. I think I can toss Big Ben farther than I would trust them.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
I was under the impression that the sources for the Lion being disloyal was Fallen Angels. I think I can toss Big Ben farther than I would trust them.

But the fallen were like 100% chaos in the beginning...I dont know when the conspiracy theories started....
By that I' mean "Which side is loyal" question.....

Even so, Luther might have been less than truthful to the Space Marines that followed him. So some fallen might believe the Dark Angels follow the Ruinous powers. I still think it is amazing that people are debating the Lion's loyalty when it's basically written in stone. But in the large picture of things the Dark Angels are a loyal and extremely ruthless chapter who is dedicated to the hunt for the traitors.

Well because IMHO Lion is a very shady character...and like some guys already said - loyal only to himself.....Now, if you ask me, and fluff from the the books, he is 100% neutral, doesn't like neither loyalist and traitors....