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Hi,

I regularly play against necron, ork, IG, nid and Eldar armies.

My opponents either max out on numbers (IG and orks) or spam vehicles/high toughness units Eldar, nids and necron. I can't outnumber any of these armies, nor can I readily out tank them. I would however like to form a balanced flexible 1500 point list which I could gently massage to deal with the respective opponents.

My list is:

Daemon Prince dedicated to Khorne, powre armour, combat familiar, wings and axe of blind fury. 270 points

Sorcerer, mark of tzeentch, increased mastery (x2), Sigil of corruption, spell familiar. 165 points

20 chaos cultists with autoguns, 2 heavy stubbers and shotgun for champion.

5 Marines with aspiring champion, mark of nurgle, melta gun, Icon of despair, gift of mutation, melta bombs and Rhino with havoc launcher. 172 points.

5 marines with aspiring champion, icon of vengeance, flamer, gift of mutation and melta bombs. 120 points.

Helbrute with reaper auto cannon and heavy flamer. 120 points

Helbrute with multi melta and heavy flamer. 115 points.

5 Havocs, aspiring champion, 2 autocannons, 2 missile launchers with 4 flakk missiles. 165 points

Predator with auto cannon and las cannon sponsons.115 points.

5 raptors with aspiring champion, mark of khorne, icon of vengeance and flamer. 135 points.

Total 1496.

The most recent games were fighting a mass of orks which I drew and necrons which had a gunline which kept getting back up because I could never quite finish a unit off and skimmer vehicle spam with all the associated tech. I had a huge problem with the ork warboss in mega armour (2+ save) with a retinue with 2 wounds each. My daemon prince in particular failed his charge rolls, was then charged by the warboss. Despite challenging the warboss (removing the problem of the retinue), the DP's inability to beat the 2+ save lost me my DP in one turn (unless I have missed something in the rules!). I would appreciate a critique of my list as I also have a land raider, defiler, 6 terminators with a chaos lord in terminator armour, 15 odd plague marines and 15 beserkers available to swap. I have traditionally tend not to use characters and in my last couple of games my termies have succumed very quickly to massed fire which has caised problems with a huge points value. Similarly I don't use deep strike that often.

Thanks for any help/suggestions

Personally I would drop some of the wargear. You are spending a lot on the DP and on the champions of small units that are easy to kill.

I'd swap out the flakk ML's and take either 4AC's or stick with plain ML's. The CSM flakk is way too expensive.

You have 4 low AC vehicles which may not help you since it is not enough vehicles to really flood them with targets. Although I like them, I might swap out the predator for more havocs (they get more shots for about the same cost), and swap the hellbrutes with chosen as they are harder to target and can really kick ass. Try some chosen with flamers for hordes of IG/Orks and chosen with meltas for taking out vehicles.

If you really want to go vehicle hunting, try some 5 man units of raptors with twin meltas and melta bombs - a large threat range, can hide behind buildings and then pop out to the rear of enemy vehicles within 6 inches and pop pretty much anything. Alternatively a couple of flamers (or one of each) and they can jump around taking out back field units.

chaotic-chaos wrote:
Hi,
the DP's inability to beat the 2+ save lost me my DP in one turn (unless I have missed something in the rules!).

Daemon princes get AP2 when using the black mace or axe of blind fury (check the monstrous creature rules), you can also choose to make a smash attack so as to instakill him.


--------------------------------===============-----------------------------------
Your list is imo terrible. Daemon princes are too expensive, tzeentch powers are terrible, hellbrutes are worthless, 5 man units are not very effective.

I would say start with some solid units:
2x 15 plague marines with 2 plasma guns
chaos lord of Nurgle on bike with burning brand of skalathras (mows down infrantry, T6 so immune to insta death)
10 Nurgle bikers with plasma/melta guns (shooty retinue for your lord)
= ~1175 points

If you like landraiders I'd go with:
Land Raider (dozer blade) 235
8 Chosen /w 2 power fists + 2 lightning claws + mark of khorne + icon of wrath = 240
dark apostle 105
= 580 points

Put those two together and drop a couple of plague marines or a few of the bikers and you've got a rock solid 1500 point list.

Things you want:
Lots of bodies
Hard hitting units that are going to get into combat relatively intact and get to choose who to engage (land raider chosen / chaos bikers)
Tough units that can take a lot of punishment and hold objectives (plague marines)

Things you don't want
massive point sinks that are easy to kill (DP)
weakly armoured vehicles (Maulerfiends,Hellbrutes, Forgefiends etc)
lots of wargear (plasma pistols, power fists on champs, gifts etc)
lots of weak units (gives up victory points in kill point games, gives up first blood)

Thanks guys.

I figured there were some problems. AV 12/13 vehicles seem well armoured when compared to my other army, DE! I guess they lack the speed to keep out of trouble.

I wasn't impressed with the DP, but it is the first time I have used a monstrous creature and was unaware of the ap2 hits. Indeed I can't find reference to it in the rules which is probably why I did not use it! Can you point me to where I can find the details please as I can't see it in the monstrous creature section.

I can really see the benefits of 4 autocannons in the havocs just for sheer volume of fire. What is the benefit of plague marines over normal marines with marke of nurgle which are cheaper?

Loving the idea of a lord of nurgle on bike with retinue.

Is there any use for the cultists? Any suggestions on units which can take down ork warbosses? The retinue they have with 2 wounds per nob at T5 as well as their own T5 W3/4 (can't remember) with decent armour saves seems very hard to take down. I have consistantly had problems with this particular unit.

And I thought that I was light on wargear! Shan't be taking a sorcerer again at this point.

Huge thanks.

chaotic-chaos wrote:
What is the benefit of plague marines over normal marines with marke of nurgle which are cheaper?

They can take an extra special weapon in squads under 10 men, which is handy if you are running small squads like you are, as well as having MoN and plague knives.

Is there any use for the cultists?

I've not used them yet, but you can probably camp them next to an objective at the start of the game and they will tie up any attackers long enough for you to get something in there to help them out.

Any suggestions on units which can take down ork warbosses? The retinue they have with 2 wounds per nob at T5 as well as their own T5 W3/4 (can't remember) with decent armour saves seems very hard to take down. I have consistantly had problems with this particular unit.

Could you try a unit of 5 chosen with meltas? Alternatively plague marines with their plague knives might work well. I've not played for quite a while and not much of 6th edition so I am not sure about what would be best to be honest.

And I thought that I was light on wargear! Shan't be taking a sorcerer again at this point.

I personally find that more bodies on the table trumps more wargear most of the time.

1. Plague Marines are better because of 2 special weapons, blight grenades (defensive Grenades), MoN, Feel No Pain all built in

2. I personally use cultists as a screen unit, or a massive shoot force. put them in cover and the can hold for awhile, no marks, just auto guns and stubbers.

3. Warboss - shoot the poop out of him and throw something hard and annoying at him to tie him up, like Spawn with MoN, cant ID T6 and always charge him.

 Luna Havoc wrote:
1. Plague Marines are better because of 2 special weapons, blight grenades (defensive Grenades), MoN, Feel No Pain all built in

Also Fearless and Poison attacks (always 4+ to wound with rerolls if against T4 or less). The 1 less I is sad but a small price to pay to have all those fantastic abilities. I love big blobs of 15-20 plague marines.

I believe the AP 2 is under the special rule Smash.

Smash indeed gives the attacks ap2 and double str, but as a monstrous creature all of his attacks are ap2