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Heya Dakka!

Sorry if this is a rehash but I used the Search-function with both "multi-charge", "challenge" and "assault" with no positive results. If anyone can point me to an article on this subject, that'd be awesome!

So... here's the scenario:

I had an ongoing assault with 2 Necron Wraiths with a Destroyer Lord vs 1 Eldar Farseer (all that was left after 2 rounds of assault). The Farseer was in a challenge with the Lord. My opponent charged into the combat with a unit of Dire Avengers (I think) and a small unit of Eldar Jetbikes. The problem was that his charge distances were enough to reach the Destroyer Lord... but NOT the wraiths. He could only reach the enemy locked in a challenge.

This raised a few questions about assaults and challenges:

1) Since the Destroyer Lord & Farseer aren't counted as being in b2b contact with anyone but each other, was this a failed charge?
2) Assuming his units rolled high enough to reach the Wraiths, could he still make contact with the Destroyer Lord?
3) If he can make contact with the Destroyer Lord, could he count it as an enemy in the combat for the purpose of determining B2B contact and who can take part in the assault (i.e. the 2'' rule)?
4) Were there any obvious rules in the BRB that we missed that would have cleared up this whole thing?

In the end, we let everyone have and swing and fought it out for fun. But afterwards, we loosely ruled it a failed charge and determined the charging units would have to ignore the challenge and not come in contact with the two units involved in the challenge.

Again, any thoughts or a link to a relevant post would be very helpful.

Thanks, Dakka.

I think failed charge is correct. You can physically be in base contact with models in a challenge all you like, but you won't count as being in base contact with them, regardless.

1) Failed charge.
2) Yes, physically.
3) No, he will count as not being in base contact with any models other than his challenger.
4) Really, it's just the rule that models in a challenge don't count as being in base contact with any models other than each other.

Thanks, Pyrian.

My thoughts pretty much exactly.

Also, I figure he couldn't use the Destroyer Lord as a target for pile-in moves, as a way to avoid b2b with the Wraiths and avoid their whip coils.
He could, conceivably, be brought in contact with the Destroyer Lord (even though it doesn't count as anything) but since it's in a challenge, he'd have to attempt to pile-in with a model that he could attack (i.e. the Wraiths in this example).

I think the rule that models in a challenge only count in b2b with each other covers this situation pretty solidly.

samas990 wrote:
Heya Dakka!

This raised a few questions about assaults and challenges:

1) Since the Destroyer Lord & Farseer aren't counted as being in b2b contact with anyone but each other, was this a failed charge?
2) Assuming his units rolled high enough to reach the Wraiths, could he still make contact with the Destroyer Lord?
3) If he can make contact with the Destroyer Lord, could he count it as an enemy in the combat for the purpose of determining B2B contact and who can take part in the assault (i.e. the 2'' rule)?
4) Were there any obvious rules in the BRB that we missed that would have cleared up this whole thing?

1)Not a failed charge. Failed charges happen if you do not have enough distance to get to an enemy model. They had distance, get into combat and then are not in base with anyone but the challenge mechanic kicks in and they are suddenly not in base with them.

Interestingly I think that if it were the other way around(the newcrons had no models but the destroyer lord in a challenge) then the eldar could still charge into combat, they just would get there to be spectators.
2) certainly
3) yes
4) dont think so

If the character was attached to the unit when they started combat he is still part of the unit and therefore would be counted as a valid model to be charged by enemy models. And even if it wasn't, the charging unit can declare the charge on the lord, barely reaching him but then at the I step they would get closer 3" which would probably get the in range of the wraiths.

There is no "time-out" for the not-in-base-contact effect. Therefore, other models are never in base contact with models in a challenge. You can't claim that you can charge the model and then have the "not-in-contact" rule kick in later, because the "not-in-contact" rule is a flat rule; it doesn't flicker on and off depending on what resolution step you're in.

Pyrian wrote:
There is no "time-out" for the not-in-base-contact effect. Therefore, other models are never in base contact with models in a challenge. You can't claim that you can charge the model and then have the "not-in-contact" rule kick in later, because the "not-in-contact" rule is a flat rule; it doesn't flicker on and off depending on what resolution step you're in.

They are in base contact, there is a difference between count as and not being, they count as for the purposes of combat (hit/allocate wounds) but they are in physically there you can't claim they are fighting in another dimension where the rest of the game rules don't apply. And again, even if you would go the they aren't in b2b with the wraiths, the unit can charge the lord, get in contact with him and therefore be engaged in the same combat as the wraiths.

Citation required.
How are you specifically charging the lord? He is part of a unit.
Where does it state that there is a difference between "counts as" and "not being?"
We aren't claiming they are in a different dimension. We are claiming that they are only in base contact with each other. And in order to be only in base contact with each other, they cant be in base contact with anyone else, can they?
And for the last claim;
1.) Find permission to charge the lord when he is in a challenge.
2.) Find permission to be in base contact with the lord when he is in a challenge.
3.) Find a clause stating that the wraiths are involved in the same combat as the farseer and the destroyer lord.
Please gives us citations from the book, including page numbers. As you stand currently lord yayua, you have nothing supporting your claims, and as such they are dismissable.

3) It is all one combat even if two peeps are in a challenge as the challenge results get added into the tally for combat resolution. (65)

1 and 2 are a bit muddier.

1) We have permission to charge any enemy unit, so we can charge the Lord and his unit. (20)

2) This one is a big mess due to the FaQ's and GW's sloppy writing

Neronoxx wrote:
Citation required.
How are you specifically charging the lord? He is part of a unit.

Just to clarify; in my original example, the Destroyer Lord was deployed with the Wraith unit and made the inital charge as part of that unit.

Deathreaper, i specifically requested page numbers as this helps others follow the conversation and limits the amount by which people can argue with you.
Thank you for posting the page numbers.
And yes, you have permission to charge an enemy UNIT. Lord Yayuya was speaking of charging the Lord specifically.
I asked him to look this up, as once he does he will find out how this works, and if he still didn't he would be able to accurately convey his confusions.
Citations are important y'all.

And i wasnt asking you that question samas, your fine

Neronoxx wrote:

And i wasnt asking you that question samas, your fine

Thanks, Neronoxx.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
They are in base contact, there is a difference between count as and not being...

Absolutely! They're actually little plastic figurines in base contact, and for resolving rules they count as being not in base contact.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...they count as for the purposes of combat (hit/allocate wounds)...

That limitation to the "counts as" is simply not in the rules. They count as not being in base contact with other models - period. That means for ALL purposes.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...you can't claim they are fighting in another dimension...

You can't claim they're jumping in and out of this other dimension in between various steps of the assault phase.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...where the rest of the game rules don't apply.

Uh, the key point of disagreement here is that you think a simple game rule somehow does not apply sometimes for reasons that, in all this discussion, you haven't even given.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...the unit can charge the lord, get in contact with him...

They can't get in contact with him. It doesn't matter whether they can physically get into contact with him; they cannot count as being contact with him, and therefore they do not "count as" charging at all.

Neronoxx wrote:
Deathreaper, i specifically requested page numbers as this helps others follow the conversation and limits the amount by which people can argue with you.
Thank you for posting the page numbers.
And yes, you have permission to charge an enemy UNIT. Lord Yayuya was speaking of charging the Lord specifically.
I asked him to look this up, as once he does he will find out how this works, and if he still didn't he would be able to accurately convey his confusions.
Citations are important y'all.

And i wasnt asking you that question samas, your fine

I said IF you consider the lord being a separate unit (meaning the lord and the wraiths charged each on their own), you can attempt to charge him and would make them all part of the same combat. IF the lord is by himself he is considered a unit of 1 model, therefore you can declare charge on him. On the OP scenario he is part of the unit so you declare charge on the unit as a whole.

"If" means an hypothetical situation btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyrian wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...the unit can charge the lord, get in contact with him...

They can't get in contact with him. It doesn't matter whether they can physically get into contact with him; they cannot count as being contact with him, and therefore they do not "count as" charging at all.

So by that logic whenever an IC is locked in challenge with another character the rest of the unit isn't locked in combat since they aren't in base contact so they are free to move... I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works

You may not declare a charge against a unit you cannot possibly reach base contact with.

EDIT:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
So by that logic whenever an IC is locked in challenge with another character the rest of the unit isn't locked in combat since they aren't in base contact so they are free to move... I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works

You need to brush up on your definitions, here. The character is in base contact, and he's part of the unit. Therefore, the entire unit is locked, and indeed they're even engaged (although that won't let them attack into the challenge).

If another unit is in the combat, and there's nothing left but a challenge in which they have no models involved, that unit will drop out of combat during pile-in on account of being unable to reach base contact.

Pyrian wrote:
If another unit is in the combat, and there's nothing left but a challenge in which they have no models involved, that unit will drop out of combat during pile-in on account of being unable to reach base contact.

That is incorrect.

The second unit is still locked in combat.

P.65 "If, at the start of any Fight sub-phase, one or more of your units is locked in combat with a single model who is fighting in a challenge, your character receives one re-roll for every five models forced to watch in this manner."

So a second unit can be locked with a single model who is fighting in a challenge.

Pyrian wrote:
You may not declare a charge against a unit you cannot possibly reach base contact with.

EDIT:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
So by that logic whenever an IC is locked in challenge with another character the rest of the unit isn't locked in combat since they aren't in base contact so they are free to move... I'm pretty sure that isn't how it works

You need to brush up on your definitions, here. The character is in base contact, and he's part of the unit. Therefore, the entire unit is locked, and indeed they're even engaged (although that won't let them attack into the challenge).

I know that isn't how it works, that was following the logic you stated before which is wrong. And now you are telling me completely the opposite

" The character is in base contact, and he's part of the unit." So if he is part of the unit he can be charged at and would lock the rest of the unit since it is as you just said part of the unit.

Part of the unit? Yes.
Able to be reached? No.
Lord Yayuya, please read the rules and requirements for assualting. One of the requirements is that the charging model MUST make it into base contact with the enemy unit.
If you charge the necron lord, you will fail the charge, as you do not have permission to be in base contact with a model in a challenge.
This is all very clear and self-explanatory if you happen to have read the rulebook.

samas990 wrote:
Heya Dakka!
1) Since the Destroyer Lord & Farseer aren't counted as being in b2b contact with anyone but each other, was this a failed charge?

Why does it not count as being in b2b? Is this rule written somewhere?
I can only find the rule stating that only the challenger and challengee can strike blows against one another which does not mention base contact at all.

Neronoxx wrote:
Part of the unit? Yes.
Able to be reached? No.
Lord Yayuya, please read the rules and requirements for assualting. One of the requirements is that the charging model MUST make it into base contact with the enemy unit.
If you charge the necron lord, you will fail the charge, as you do not have permission to be in base contact with a model in a challenge.
This is all very clear and self-explanatory if you happen to have read the rulebook.

You have permission to be in base contact with the model, because you get permission to get into b2b when you declared a charge

pg. 20 BRB "A unit can never declare charge against a unit that it cannot reach, nor can it declare a charge against a unit that it cannot see" The lord in question is a unit that can be reached and is seen therefore no restriction to declare charge on him.

You get the 1" restriction removed on pg.21 BRB "All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move following the same rules as in Movement phase, with the exception that they can move within 1" of enemy models" Is the lord an enemy model? If yes then you can move within the 1" of it.

Then you move the initial charger pg.21 BRB "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged" Is the Lord part of the unit? Yes. Therefore you move the closes model using the shortest route to it.

Those are the restrictions/process of charging of which the Lord has no exception on any of it, therefore can be charged without breaking any rule. After charges are done you enter the fight sub-phase, in which due to the Round Two rule on pg. 65 BRB, any challenge where both competitors survived then they continue to fight in the next wound of close combat. You then even have the option of issuing a Glorious Intervention pg. 65 BRB "A character can declare a Glorious Intervention at the start of his own Fight sub-phase before any blows are struck, if a friendly character in the same combat is about to fight a second or subsequent round of a challenge", there is actually stated that before the start of the fight sub-phase you aren't actually fighting a challenge you finished the first round of challenge and are about to fight the next round of it, so in that time between you aren't considered to be only in base contact with the challenger.

 DeathReaper wrote:
So a second unit can be locked with a single model who is fighting in a challenge.

There may be other ways that can happen (although that depends a bit on how granular "locked" is, a point of some contention elsewhere), but even if there were not, providing a general permission for a possibility that has no specific way of being accomplished is like a weapon type or special rule that no actual models carry; just because there's a specific way of resolving a situation that cannot happen, does not mean you get to invent an arbitrary way of making that situation happen.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
...that was following the logic you stated before...

It had nothing to do with my stated logic, strongly suggesting that you do not understand the fundamental terms of the discussion.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
" The character is in base contact, and he's part of the unit." So if he is part of the unit he can be charged at and would lock the rest of the unit since it is as you just said part of the unit.

What part of "can't reach base contact" isn't getting through? I mean, that's it. That's all there is. You can't reach base contact with the character in a challenge. Or, more properly, you can't count as reaching base contact with him, which amounts to the same thing. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

Imagine there's a perfectly thin piece of impassable terrain around the characters in the challenge. That's exactly what we're talking about. In that case, you can't charge him at all if he's a separate unit, because you can't possibly reach contact with him on account of there being impassable terrain in the way of your charge. If he's part of a unit (like in the original example) then you may declare a charge against the unit as long as you could possibly reach some of the other models in the unit, but if you fail to reach any of those models, you'll fail the charge. "Reaching" the character won't make the charge succeed, because there's impassable terrain in the way.

Do you understand that example?

Now replace "impassable terrain" with "counts as not being in base contact" and you've got the same results. You just can't reach him.

pg.21 BRB "Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged"

I've emphasized the part you can't do with the character in a challenge.

Page 64, fighting a challenge.
Read that Lord Yayuya.
Then you'll see why what you are attempting to do is called cheating.

I have read many times the challenge section and again, you can be in base contact with the challengers, they count as being only in b2b with each other on the challenges which happens only on the fight sub-phase, charges and everything else is outside that sub-phase therefore perfectly legal. You keep fighting rounds of challenges if you survive the first one, each round starts and ends on the fight-subphase