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 Lobukia wrote:


Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to

Sorry, but some of the examples you mention are either not really that strong or work only against a single GK list.

Ork vehicles can often be popped by simple GK storm bolters, not to mention the almight psyrifleman, and they won't do much to GK armor after the shooting losses they'll take crossing the board. Doubly so if there are purifiers or a raven on the table.

CSM are in a bind against most GK armies. Hammer of Wrath is...well, not something anything has to fear when facng chaos or anyone else. Tzeentch CSM are easily the least efficient and most expensive chaos troops, and the most vunerable to GKs: more psykers for them to use grenades and their psyker defense upon. Defilers are hideously expensive and won't scratch 2+ armor. Nor will the hellturkey before psyrifledreads blow it out of the sky. The only things CSM really have that could scare GKs are melta or plasma chosen and oblits with plasma cannons. Maybe the forgefiend with plasma, but odds are it will be glanced to death by psy rounds after it fires once.

SM bikes are pricey and the small unit sizes mean they'll be falling back more often than other units. They certainly don't pach enough low-AP weapon volume to scare a good formation. Assualt termies are great but can be maneuvered around, shot to bits via mass S5 fire or pelted with psyker powers.

Nids are rather boned against GK. Their fames big monsters are one wound away from being insta-nuked in CC, their psykers/synapse are prime targets for all the nasty anti-psychic abilities GKs have, and army-wide assault2 S5 weaponry with a 24-inch range or better means their front lines evaporate really fast. And that's not counting purifiers.

Daemons have about one good build right now, and even that struggles against GKs. Just by adding their basic troop choice to a list a GK player can seriously mess up several Daemon deployment options. If we step beyinf the Daemon Flying Circus mold, the average GK list will implode a daemon list without trying just on the force of Favored Enemy, ,good CC and shooting, excellent psykers...

Grey Knights are slightly less potent in CC against 2+ armor and the hull point system made their previously nigh-unkillable razorbacks and vendreads less durable.

On the other hand, their allies table is great, their shooting is excellent, very good psyker discipline selection, army-wide psychic defense, can go ultra-elite or horde and be equally powerful. And overwatch means they get to fire their amazing guns again when charged!

Take a demolisher and all GKs are gone


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And/or maybe throw in a group of TH/SS Terminators


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

 pizzaguardian wrote:

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

Seriously read hammerhand. It tells you to add in the Str modifier before multiplication. (Page 25 GK Codex)

So this is not correct:

 captain collius wrote:
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

 captain collius wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

The Hammerhand rule specifically says you apply it before demon hammers. It has been like this when the codex came out and hasn't changed since.

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Read Page 7 in the BRB. Right Column, last graph to see why your statement is incorrect.

 captain collius wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

1. Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.
3. Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.
4. Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

i

For 2 it seems you need to reread the rule.

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Because it says, and I quote, "Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."
There's no FAQ that changes that. (above is my bold)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

Daemon hammer swings at the same time as the thunder hammer...

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
It is in my original quote it is in the rule book under multiple modifiers read it. That tells you your wrong.

And the codex specifies otherwise, which overrides the BRB. You're wrong - a STR4 model casting hammerhand and swinging a NFW Daemonhammer is hitting at STR10.

IN the FAQ they state that you do it by the rulebook aka multipliers additions set values try again.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570043a_Grey_Knights_v1.1.pdf
Citation required.
The word "Hammerhand" appears 3 times in that FAQ and none of them state what you're referring to.
"try again"

Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Don't assume we don't check the faq's before proving you wrong. I checked the grey knights faq , the rulebook faq , the grey knights codex and the rulebook itself. You are wrong.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

GK weapons cant harm Terminators in CC

Daemonhammer equipped GK's would like to have a word with you.

the Daemon hammer swings last, and you fight GK with TH/SS terminators so you get a 3+ in save

Daemon hammer swings at the same time as the thunder hammer...

Of course, i know. But the GK terminators dont stand a chance against a squad of TH/SS terminators.

rigeld2 wrote:

 captain collius wrote:
Listen read the rule book it is clear read every part of the faq i don't have to cite for you simply because you don't want to look it up yourself. As i have said before and is specifically mention in the earlier part of the faq everything in that codex needs to be adjusted hence a hammer term startout an st 4 this would be doubled to 8 them +1 to 9 as according to the RULEBOOK. please tell me how hammer hand could overrule this.

Because it says, and I quote, "Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."
There's no FAQ that changes that. (above is my bold)

Okay you are correct.

Rad grenades are OP.

Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Grey Knights die to volume of fire just like any other Space Marines, except they're more expensive.

And they die to Demolishers.


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 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Aha! I see


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But GK was pretty nerfed because their force weapons are AP3.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Tomten wrote:

 prophet102 wrote:
GK got nerfed from being the most broken force in the game. Now they are able to be beat but they are still arguably the best army in the game.

How are they broken?

"from being the most broken force in the game" means they used to be, but no longer are.

Yeah they were horrendous to play against in 5th but now they have weaknesses that are easily exploitable (lack of fliers, fewer ap 2 weapons, vehicle nerfs.)

But still Paladins seem dangerous.

 Tomten wrote:
But still Paladins seem dangerous.

Again the look pretty good till you realize if you hit str 8 the y get no fnp and they still take wounds from bolters

They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

If you play Nids or Blood Angels, I can see the whining, but really watch what happens when Johnny Draigo Wing runs into pretty much any tournament tuned IG or SW list and then come back to the thread.

 Phazael wrote:
They are not now, nor ever were the most powerful army in the game. IG and SW still dominate just about everything under the known sun, without even getting into the ally shennanigans. Crons were a better CC and shooting army in 5th and the gap between them and GK has increased. GK are about on the same level as Blood Angels and the faq boosted DA/BK builds out there. I would even argue that a well made Vulkan or Pedro list is on the same footing as GK right now. The one truely undercosted part of the entire GK book is Coteaz.

If you play Nids or Blood Angels, I can see the whining, but really watch what happens when Johnny Draigo Wing runs into pretty much any tournament tuned IG or SW list and then come back to the thread.

Necrons are better in 6th ed.

I said they were better than GK in 5th and even better than them in 6th. Therefor, my statement does not conflict with yours.