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2012/12/17 19:24:21
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
They say daemons are really strong now. The new screamers and flamers are super good and extremely dominating when spammed. Although I don't normally run such a spam daemon list, I just had to get in a test game against them. Because I know at the major tournaments (like the BAO, for instance), you are going to encounter such an army (or variation of) near the end of the tournament. Believe me, they will be on the top tables.
Just a disclaimer - do NOT run such a daemon army in casual play. The casual players will not want to play you again and you will be viewed of as a powergamer by them, especially if they don't really know you. It is a very strong army build that will just steam-roll through many armies, both casual and even some of the competitive ones. It is not unbeatable but it is really hard to play against if you don't bring an extreme list yourself.
My goal in this matchup is to see if my balanced tyranids have what it takes to survive such an army. Heck, I am more ambitious than that. I want to see if my bugs has what it takes to beat such an army. It won't be easy, but if the stars align, I believe that they have a shot.
Although the BAO is going to be at 1750, I decided to run this test game at 2K. But otherwise, it will be using the BAO scenarios.
Carnage43 wrote: You have the demon list showing 2200 points. Cut and paste error from your last report against demons?
I'm interested to see how this one plays out.
You seem to use the same terrain almost every time. Is this your board or a store?
Correct, it is only 2K. Thanks and fixed.
Basically, this game was played a few days after my last test game against Guards. I just basically left the board as is instead of putting everything away and setting it up again. This is my board.
I'm loving the pace with which these batreps are coming out!
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2012/12/18 00:53:35
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons
Daemons going first can really hurt if they get the preferred wave in, especially as you won't have a chance to get off any endurances. Damage limitation an deployment in turn one are the key to beating daemons with Nids, I think we have some of the best options for beating them as we'll, being able to bubble wrap with replaceable gants is priceless. I think you've got a good chance against them, if you get the deployment right. Heck I've manage to beat a maxed out screamer flames list and I dont play my Nids to anywhere near the same standard as you.
Screamers/Flamers maxed out is very limited. They do one thing really well and they have very little flexibility.
Tyranids takes this one - it is a bad matchup for the Daemons. The gaunts will knock down fate, while smaller waves of them pile into screamers and flamers to keep them anchored down and vulnerable to assault from the TMC.
DexKivuli wrote: I'm loving the pace with which these batreps are coming out!
You can thank my wife for that. She's been busy this month traveling out-of-town for work, leaving me with plenty of free time on my hands.
Eldercaveman wrote: Daemons going first can really hurt if they get the preferred wave in, especially as you won't have a chance to get off any endurances. Damage limitation an deployment in turn one are the key to beating daemons with Nids, I think we have some of the best options for beating them as we'll, being able to bubble wrap with replaceable gants is priceless. I think you've got a good chance against them, if you get the deployment right. Heck I've manage to beat a maxed out screamer flames list and I dont play my Nids to anywhere near the same standard as you.
It's debatable if daemons going first will hurt nids or will they actually hurt themselves. Yeah, they will get the alpha-strike before bugs get the chance to cast Endurance, but how many breath templates can actually hit a tervigon on the drop? Then they've got to endure 1 more shooting phase from the nids and nids will get the last word in regards to the objectives. Honestly, I'm feeling that it might actually be better for daemons to go 2nd in this game.
But I do agree that tyranids do have a decent chance against daemons thanks to all the free gants that those tervigons can produce.
calypso2ts wrote: Screamers/Flamers maxed out is very limited. They do one thing really well and they have very little flexibility.
Tyranids takes this one - it is a bad matchup for the Daemons. The gaunts will knock down fate, while smaller waves of them pile into screamers and flamers to keep them anchored down and vulnerable to assault from the TMC.
I actually think they are more balanced than what most people think. The way I judge balance is how well they do relative to the 3 phases of the game as well as their staying power. With Fateweaver around, they've definitely got some staying power. They've got decent shooting with breath of chaos and a lot of warpfire shots. They've got good assault with screamers and good "anti-assault" with breath of chaos Overwatch. But the kicker which puts them over the top IMO is their mobility. Frankly, its frickin sick! Most good armies will excel in 1 phase and do alright in another. But a great tournament-winning army can handle all 3 phases well. Daemons have great mobility, great assault/anti-assault and good shooting. That makes them a top-tier army IMO.
I think the key to this matchup is for tyranids to keep on generating gants. If they run dry early, I think daemons will take it. If they can produce a substantial amount of gants before running dry, I think bugs will take it.
Agreed that tyranids is one of the stronger armies to face deamons atm. Good starting deployment by nids will protect their important units from flamers/screamers the turn they come in and then being able to eat the huge flamer overwatch with a small expendable unit of free gants will mean you can get into combat with the flamers easily where they suffer.
Also tyranids bring weight of fire which is excellent against the poor deamon save.
2012/12/18 02:01:02
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons
Eldercaveman wrote: Daemons going first can really hurt if they get the preferred wave in, especially as you won't have a chance to get off any endurances. Damage limitation an deployment in turn one are the key to beating daemons with Nids, I think we have some of the best options for beating them as we'll, being able to bubble wrap with replaceable gants is priceless. I think you've got a good chance against them, if you get the deployment right. Heck I've manage to beat a maxed out screamer flames list and I dont play my Nids to anywhere near the same standard as you.
It's debatable if daemons going first will hurt nids or will they actually hurt themselves. Yeah, they will get the alpha-strike before bugs get the chance to cast Endurance, but how many breath templates can actually hit a tervigon on the drop? Then they've got to endure 1 more shooting phase from the nids and nids will get the last word in regards to the objectives. Honestly, I'm feeling that it might actually be better for daemons to go 2nd in this game.
I think that going first (especially for lists that are not highly mobile) is becoming a bigger and bigger issue in general. The increase in psychic powers is making this matter, and jink saves can matter too. In our group where skimmers are common - Necron, Tau, Eldar - and psychic powers matter - Eldar, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Dark Angels - the first turn can have a huge impact.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/18 02:02:03
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2012/12/18 02:03:21
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons
Yeah, tyranids stand a better chance against daemons than a lot of the MEQ armies. It still won't be an easy fight, but if a few things go their way (i.e. tervigons can keep on producing gants, they get powers like Iron Arm and Endurance), then even daemons will have trouble against them. The key I feel is for them to be able to produce an above-average amount of gants.
Daemons are seriously powerful, but they do have some weaknesses which the Nids should be able to exploit. The most obvious is that in the config the Daemons are using in this one they don't handle fliers (and to a slightly lesser extent flying monstrous creatures) very well. A couple of Bolts from Fate + a couple more snap firing really don't give you many ways to deal with major damage dealers in the air. They are also relatively fragile if you can manage to isolate them from Fateweaver (which is more difficult at 2k rather than 1750). The other thing is that Nids are one of the few armies which can reliably get into assault with Daemons, you can use throwaway generated units of Gaunts to get MCs into combat with Flamers, and since they are single models (assuming no Gaunts live) they can often avoid being counter charged by Screamers as they get completely surrounded. I'm picking the Nids, but not by much (unless the Daemons get non preferred wave, in which case it should be relatively comfortable). Quite a bit depends on how long the Flyrants can stick around and how long the Tervigons can keep spawning.
2012/12/18 14:49:57
Subject: Re:2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons
- Massed Breath of Chaos will wound anything on a 4+ and there are no armour/cover saves. A unit of flamers can easily wipe out entire squads.
- Screamers have 3 S5 AP2 attacks each (4 on the charge).
- Screamers/flamers are tough to kill when around Fateweaver. With 2W each, they get re-rollable 5++ saves. Also, flamers can turbo-boost to get a re-rollable 4+ cover. It actually takes a lot of firepower to kill them. And because they are daemons, you cannot insta-kill them (all daemons are Eternal Warrriors).
- Screamer slash-attacks can actually hurt the little bugs. So will warpfire shooting from the flamers.
- Flamer Overwatch is devastating. It can wipe out a charging monstrous creature. Tyranid monstrous creatures (TMC) cannot charge those flamers without first sending in another unit to eat the Overwatch.
- Daemon mobility. This is a fast army. Not only can screamers get to anywhere almost at will, but they can do damage with their slash-attacks while doing so. Daemons have the mobility advantage against the bugs.
- The Masque complements this army very well with her ability to move 3 units at a time. You think you're spread out against those breaths of chaos? The Masque's Pavane bunches you up together. You think you are safe from assault? Pavane brings you to within striking distance of the screamers. You think you've secured that objective? The Masque moves you off of the objective. Area terrain protecting you from screamer assault? You're no longer in area terrain courtesy of the Masque.
- The bugs don't have much to deal with Fateweaver initially. They're going to have their hands full against all those flamers/screamers. That means Fateweaver can go on being a force-multiplier all game.
Daemon strategy will be to stay together with Fateweaver until they are ready to strike. Ideally, they would like to hit the tervigons and biovores, but realistically, that may not be possible until they clear all the screening units (i.e. termagants and gargoyles). My strategy is to land a safe distance from the tyranid advance or if not, use a unit of screamers as a screening unit to protect the flamers. Daemons DO NOT want to get those flamers tied down by the tyranid swarm.
Tyranids: Why are tyranids dangerous to daemons?
- They've got the volume-of-fire/attacks to actually hurt the daemons, especially if a unit is out of range of Fateweaver's protection.
- Daemons do not have much of an answer against flyers/flying monstrous creatures. The 2 flyrants will have a field day. They way daemons play against flying units is to just ignore them and weather the damage with their resiliency. However, those 2 flyrants put up 24 twin-linked S6 shots! That's about equivalent to 4-5 necron flyers!
- Biovores. If daemons drop in and shoot, biovores are going to hurt them. They need to drop in and spread out, forcing them to lose a turn of shooting....unless the screamers can slash-attack the biovores.
- Termagants will play an important role in this game. They will eat the deadly Overwatches of the flamers. They will tie up the screamers so that tyranids can counter-attack. They will protect the tyranid VIP units (i.e. the tervigons and biovores) as screening units. I believe that how well bugs will do will depend on how many gants the tervigons can spawn. If they can continue spawning, I think tyranids will have the advantage in this game. If they run out early, then daemons will have the advantage.
- Tyranid psychic powers. The 2 most important powers they need are Iron Arm and especially Endurance. Iron Arm protects against the screamers. Endurance protects against everything. The key to tervigon survivability depends on the psychic powers they get. Also, Enfeeble will be very useful in this game as well.
- Tyranids will have much more troops than daemons.
- I have more experience with my bugs than with daemons. I have never run this type of daemon build before. Let's see if the list runs itself as many people seem to think or do I actually have to play very tactically with them.
Tyranid strategy is to drown the daemons in gants. Always put a screening unit in front of the tervigons and stay out of flamer range, at least for the important units, until they are ready to charge. Swarm the objectives and bubble-wrap where necessary. Flyrants will perform surgical strikes and double-team any unit not within Fatey's bubble. I need to kill as efficiently as possible and that means to take out the easier-to-kill-but-still-deadly units first.
Mission:Bay Area Open Scenario #3 - The Relic (4pts) & Big Guns Never Tire (3pts)
The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #3, The Relic is worth 4-points and Big Guns Never Tire is worth 3-points. There are 4 objectives for Big Guns.
Better than in my previous games, but no Iron Arm for the tervigons means that they are going to be vulnerable to screamer assault.
Warlord traits:
Tyranids: -1 on the enemy reserves (Nice!)
Daemons: not very useful
Daemons deploy nothing.
Tyranid deployment.
Notice how I deploy my tervigons up front? I'm actually not concerned about daemons doing too much damage to them on the turn they come in. Rather, I'm more concerned with them killing my screening gribblies with warpfire, which is why I am deploying my smaller bugs behind the bigger guys and with cover.
Gants spread out to prevent daemons from dropping in their backfield, mainly to protect the biovores.
Daemons get their Prefered Wave of Fateweaver, 3 flamers, 2 screamers and the Changeling's pink horrors.
One unit of screamers almost scatters into the bugs.
Almost everyone else lands on target, though the rear-left flamers almost scatter into impassable terrain. The unit of bloodletters is a proxy for flamers. The changeling's unit lands directly onto the Relic.
Daemons then opt not to shoot but to spread out instead. Screamers turbo-boost over tyranid units and back within Fateweaver's bubble of protection, acting as a screen for the rest of the army.
I decide to play defensively on Turn 1. Besides, I don't have good firing lanes to the bugs. Just spread out and try to get within Fateweaver's bubble of protection.
Slash-attacks from the 2 units of screamers kill off 10 gargoyles and 5 gants.
Total Termagants: 30
Total Termagants killed: 5
Fateweaver also puts 1W on the tyranid Warlord.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
Tyranids would cast their psychic powers every turn.
Tervigons spawn 12 and 6 termagants respectively, no doubles. Bugs advance. Both flyrants swoop.
1 unit of biovores fire at the flamers outside of Fatey's protection but the blast scatters into the pink horrors, killing a few. The Warlord then fires at them and wipes them out for First Blood.
The flyrant and other unit of biovores then combine to kill 3 flamers and put 2W on 2 different models. Biovore blast also puts 1W on the right flamer unit.
I then fire the rest of the army - 2 units of termagants, both hive guards and 2 tervigons - at the screamers and only do a piddly 1W.
Uh oh....that's not good for the bugs.
Onto assault. On the left, tervigon and termagants bumrush the screamers. On the right, hive guards assault the other unit of screamers.
Screamers wipe out the hive guards without a single scratch.
Right screamers only kill 6 gants from the 2 squads. Tyranids kill 1 screamer and put 1W on another one in return.
Man, I am glad that there is no more No Retreat saves. That used to be a huge weakness of the nids.
Total Termagants: 48
Total Termagants killed: 11
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
1 unit of plaguebearers come in and land near a daemon objective.
Another unit of pink horrors come in and land directly onto the relic once again.
The last unit of screamers don't come in due to the tyrand Warlord trait (-1 on reserves).
New strategy for daemons. The freed screamer unit is going after the biovores and to wreak havoc on the tyranid backfield units. This will also force the bugs to split their forces, which is normally what you want to try to do.
Flamers advance. Now all flamers and the screamers in combat are within Fateweaver's bubble of protection.
Screamers turbo-boost and wipe out the unit of 2 biovores.
Flamers shoot down 3 gants. They don't need to worry about being assaulted by the flyrant, at least not yet.
Combat continues. Bugs lose another 6 gants but kill another 1 screamer.
The unit of 2 gants are found to be outside of synapse and fall back.
Total Termagants: 48
Total Termagants killed: 20
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
The Doom comes in. Bugs Enfeeble 1 unit of flamers.
Warlord swoops. Tervigon in combat spawns another 6 gants.
Last tervigon spawns 11 gants. Gants close in on the screamers.
The fleeing unit of 2 gants regroup due to synapse from the tervigon which moved towards them.
Wow....so far, none of the tervigons have crapped out.
Biovores opt to fire at flamers. However, their blast scatters onto and kills the 6 newly-spawned gants as well as 1 screamer.
The Doom then uses Puppet Master to make 1 unit of flamers fire onto the other unit of flamers.
Puppet Master, combined with the dakka from both flyrants and some gant shooting, wipe out a combined 9 flamers from both squads!!!
The screamers are also Enfeebled by the tervigon. After gants (and tervigon) are done shooting, 3 screamers are destroyed.
Gargoyles shoot down 1 pink horror and then assault, losing 2 gargoyles to Overwatch.
Combat sees 3 gargoyles, 2 pink horrors, 1 screamer and 4 gants dead.
Total Termagants: 77
Total Termagants killed: 30
That was a really good turn for the bugs. They killed 5 screamers and 9 flamers this turn while only losing a few gants in return. More importantly, all 3 tervigons are still operating at full gant-producing capacity.
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
The Masque comes in and almost scatters into the flamers.
Screamers and plaguebearers come in as well. Plaguebearers land on target near the tyranid objective. Screamers scatter back into the crater and takes 1W due to dangerous terrain.
Daemons advance.
Screamers go after the other unit of biovores.
The unit of 3 flamers go after the gants and tervigon.
They wipe out the unit of 12 gants and put 1W on the tervigon only.
Screamers slash the termagants, killing 9 out of 10.
The Masque bunches up 2 units of termagants and the hive guards with her Pavane.
Flamers then wipe out both units of termagants (12 total) and 1 hive guard (as well as putting 1W on the last hive guard).
Fateweaver still cannot hit the broadside of a barn. His shooting misses everything.
The unit of 1 termagant then runs off the table.
Screamers then multi-assault. Daemons lose 1 screamer to Overwatch.
Screamers wipe out the remaining 2 gants and also put 2W on the tervigon.
Finally, the unit of 3 screamers do really poor in assault, only managing to kill 2 gants and put 1W on the biovores. Gants in return, kill 2 screamers. The gants would then consolidate out of combat because they could not pile into the assault.
Total Termagants: 77
Total Termagants killed: 68
Wow....that's a lot of dead gants!
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Tyranids Enfeeble the newly-arrived screamers.
Tervigons spawn another 12 and 9 gants. 1 tervigon runs out.
Make that 13 gants!!!
I'm a tyranid player but even I've got to say, "This is getting ridiculous!"
Flyrant has to go into glide mode in order to turn around.
Gants and tervigon go after the flamers.
The other flyrant glides as well in order to go backwards.
The Doom's Spirit Leech kills 2 flamers, 2 horrors and 1 screamer!
He then uses Puppet Master to make Fateweaver shoot at the flamers. Fatey actually uses Boon of Mutation to kill the flamer, thus taking the unit out of his protective bubble.
The Warlord flyrant just barely sees the head of the Masque and shoots her down, thus claiming Slay the Warlord for the bugs. Gants and cluster spines from the tervigon then kill 3 flamers.
The combined shooting of both units of gants and the tervigon kill off 4 screamers despite their 4+ turbo-boost cover save.
Gants then assault the flamers, losing 6 to Overwatch. Tervigon fails to make the charge against the same target.
Gants would furiously charge the screamers as well.
The 13 newly-spawned gants go to help out their mother.
Flamers wipe out the 3 gants.
Screamer actually loses combat to the biovores by 1.
Gants wipe out the screamers.
Tyranids lose 4 gants, but there is only 1 screamer with 1W left from the combat.
Total Termagants: 111
Total Termagants killed: 81
Another devastatingly good turn for tyranids. They lose only 13 gants but they kill the daemon Warlord (Masque), 6 flamers and 11 screamers. And the tervigons are still firing on all cylinders.
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Pink horrors come in onto objective.
Daemons may be losing the fight, but technically, they are still winning as they currently have the both the Relic and more objectives than the bugs.
If daemons are going down, they are going to go down taking at least 1 tervigon with them. Their shooting - 6 breaths, bolt, boon and daemonic gaze - fail to even wound the tervigon!!!
The lone flamer has a choice of 2 monstrous targets.
Horrors try to get out of LOS of the flyrant but don't quite make it behind the hill.
Plaguebearers assault 1 unit of gants.
Gants win 4 to 1.
Fatey assaults the tervigon. Combat is drawn with no wounds apiece.
Tervigon and gants finally finish off the screamers.
Last but not least, the last gargoyle finishes off the pink horror holding the Relic.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Flyrant perils while casting Warp Speed.
Tervigon spawns 11 gants who take the Relic.
Another tervigon spawns another 14 gants.
Nids go after the flamers and Fateweaver.
Warlord swoops and then shoots down 2 plaguebearers on an objective.
The other flyrant only manages to shoot down 1 pink horror. But he is contesting the objective.
Termagants shoot down the lone flamer.
4 gants die to Overwatch before the tervigon safely charges into the flamers.
Screamer kills 1 biovore. They are barely within range of synapse so are still fearless.
3 gants and 1 flamer perish in combat.
Total Termagants: 136
Total Termagants killed: 88
Daemons 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
There's no question tyranids have got this one. Now it is just a matter of pride as daemons try to prevent a Crushing Victory. Pink horrors and single flamer go after the gants, trying to take away the Relic.
They kill 8 gants but the bugs still have the Relic.
Screamer continues to slowly kill biovores. Gants finish off the plaguebearer.
3 more gants die, but not before they kill 2 flamers and put 1W on Fateweaver (who passes his LD test).
Total Termagants: 136
Total Termagants killed: 99
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
Tervigon spawns another 10 gants.
Flyrant gets ready to wipe out the plaguebearers.
Tyranids mean to have a crushing victory. No mercy for the warped.
Another 8 gants without the factories shutting down.
Gants go to help out the very last biovore.
Flyrant wipes out 3 horrors. He would then assault and finish him off.
Warlord shoots down 2 plagues and then assault. The last plague survives.
Gants finish off the screamer in assault.
The Doom and gargoyle finish off the lone flamer.
Assault puts another 1W on Fatey. 2 gants die.
There is no need to go any further. The victor is clear.
Tyranids have 1 objective to none and could very easily pick up more objectives had the game continued. They take Big Guns Never Tire.
They've also got the Relic and all 3 bonus points - First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker.
Tyranids shut out the daemons 10-0.
Total Termagants: 154
Total Termagants killed: 101
Crushing Victory to Hive Fleet Pandora!!!
This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 02:51:09
Enfeeble is something not to be overlooked either, as dropping anything to t3 or less means termagants are wounding on 4s or better with a reroll. Proper deployment by Tyranids means he should have a few weak gant units leftover to eat overwatch and let something tarpit the flamers all game.
Also, as mentioned, Daemons aren't hot on killing FMC, while Flyrants can pump out 6-9 wounds reliably each every turn.
I think Nids take it in a close match, but dice can definitely take this either way.
2012/12/19 17:44:11
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons
DexKivuli wrote: I think that going first (especially for lists that are not highly mobile) is becoming a bigger and bigger issue in general. The increase in psychic powers is making this matter, and jink saves can matter too. In our group where skimmers are common - Necron, Tau, Eldar - and psychic powers matter - Eldar, Chaos Marines, Tyranids, Dark Angels - the first turn can have a huge impact.
Yeah, before my natural tendency is to go 2nd in objectives-based missions. Now it's not a sure-thing anymore. It really depends on the opponent. If they bring a lot of ranged firepower, then I would want to go first to be able to cast my psychic powers and get first-strike against them. If they don't have a lot of ranged firepower, then I can afford to go 2nd.
Powerguy wrote: Daemons are seriously powerful, but they do have some weaknesses which the Nids should be able to exploit. The most obvious is that in the config the Daemons are using in this one they don't handle fliers (and to a slightly lesser extent flying monstrous creatures) very well. A couple of Bolts from Fate + a couple more snap firing really don't give you many ways to deal with major damage dealers in the air. They are also relatively fragile if you can manage to isolate them from Fateweaver (which is more difficult at 2k rather than 1750). The other thing is that Nids are one of the few armies which can reliably get into assault with Daemons, you can use throwaway generated units of Gaunts to get MCs into combat with Flamers, and since they are single models (assuming no Gaunts live) they can often avoid being counter charged by Screamers as they get completely surrounded. I'm picking the Nids, but not by much (unless the Daemons get non preferred wave, in which case it should be relatively comfortable). Quite a bit depends on how long the Flyrants can stick around and how long the Tervigons can keep spawning.
Agreed. How this type of daemon build (actually, most daemon armies) deal with flyers is to just ignore them. The army is built with resiliency as the main defense against a flyer army. Tyranids are actually the same, though they do have slightly better tools against flyers with the dual flyrants. Against FMC's, just wait until they assault and afterwards, they will be out in the open to eat your counter-attack (assuming the assault is completed on the their assault phase). For the most part, it is not in the best interest of both armies to spend too much resources to try to take down each other's FMC's. Rather, just ignore them and deal with the rest of the army. There are plenty of high-priority targets on the ground.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Enfeeble is something not to be overlooked either, as dropping anything to t3 or less means termagants are wounding on 4s or better with a reroll. Proper deployment by Tyranids means he should have a few weak gant units leftover to eat overwatch and let something tarpit the flamers all game.
Also, as mentioned, Daemons aren't hot on killing FMC, while Flyrants can pump out 6-9 wounds reliably each every turn.
I think Nids take it in a close match, but dice can definitely take this either way.
Yeah, Enfeeble definitely will have a big impact in the game. It's one thing when you get Enfeebled and have to survive the offense of 1 unit. It's something else when you get Enfeebled and have to survive the offense of 10 units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle report completed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/20 02:53:43
Ha ha so much gaunt farming! I had one Tervigon spawn 52 gaunts once... It can get pretty ridiculous when that happens and I am not sure how to combat that.
Red Corsair wrote: Ha ha so much gaunt farming! I had one Tervigon spawn 52 gaunts once... It can get pretty ridiculous when that happens and I am not sure how to combat that.
By killing the tervigon.
Unfortunately, daemons don't have the shooting to do that, at least not before they clear out the gant screen. And they definitely won't be able to get to assault the tervigon without going through those gants first.
It takes a very shooty army with either lots of low-AP or poisoned weaponry to kill the tervigons safely and those are the types of armies that will give bugs trouble.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 03:38:39
That many tervigons, especially if they have Iron Arm, are very hard to deal with. Even under volume of fire - with all those wounds, and high toughness - they are going to survive for a while. That, combined with the threats presented by your flyrants, makes it a very hard list to respond to.
However, after reading your past few reports with interest (and especially this one), I'm not sold on the hive guard or the biovores. The biovores seem to largely fill a role that you're not having any trouble with: killing infantry. And while the hive guard can be useful, I think they're only really useful in a limited number of situations.
Personally, I'd like the idea of having zoanthropes. The psychic powers are really that good, adn the more you have, the more chance of sticking the power you want.
Given how much the psychic powers are contributing to your approach, I'd be interested to see you you'd perform against competitive eldar or space wolves.
Overall, another great report that I really enjoyed :-)
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2012/12/20 06:52:42
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
One thing to keep in mind is that all my lists are balanced Take-All-Comer's lists. As such, they need some ranged anti-tank. That's where the hive guards comes in. They're still my most reliable ranged AT in this army. Mech isn't completely dead. There are still a lot of armies out there (i.e. my GK opponent in the other battle report) where the hive guards are necessary. They help to make my list more balanced. Psychic powers are good, but when it becomes the crux of your army (i.e. when you start to rely too much on it), it actually imbalances your army. What if my bugs were to go up against Space Wolves or Runes of Warding eldar? Worse yet, many of the good tournament armies will ally in SW or eldar just for their psychic defense. As good as tyranid psychic powers are, you really don't want to make it the foundation of your army.
Biovores are great just as much for how they affect your opponent tactically as for the damage they can potentially do. In most of my games, the biovores usually make their points back and then some in terms of kills. But just as importantly is how they affect your opponent. They screw with enemy deployment. They force my opponent to spread out when normally they probably wouldn't want to. They also force some of my opponents to put units in reserves when they probably wouldn't normally do. They force deep-striking units like terminators, drop pod marines and daemons to have to make difficult decisions (i.e. either fire when they come in and get hit hard by the biovores or run to spread out and lose a turn of shooting). And they can reach enemies where the rest of my units can't (i.e. hiding, objective campers, disembarked troops, heavy weapon units like long fangs, etc.), making my bugs actually dangerous from long-range. And on top of that, then there's the barrage sniping.....
Zoanthropes are good. In the future, I may experiment with the Doom, 1 unit of 3 hive guards and 1 unit of 2-3 zoanthropes. My friend Janthkin is already using this configuration.
I have a competitive game against Space Wolves in the works. It's quite a nasty army with 15 missile long fangs, 3 rune priests, 2 land speeder typhoons and 50 grey hunters. This army may yet be Hive Fleet Pandora's greatest challenge so far.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 06:57:52
I want to add my two cents and say that Hive Guard are awesome, and the psychological and real effect of the Biovores is really not to be underestimated! Guard blobs, inquistion, Firewarriors/Kroot, reduced tactical marine squads, any Eldar Troop (other than troop Wraithguard but that is rare); in other words, a very large % of troop choices in the game have a very real reason to fear Biovores.
- 4000
- 1500 6th ed codex: 2 wins, 1 loss, 0 draws
2012/12/20 08:48:48
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
So jy2, do you finally consider a 3x Tervigons setup as a balanced/competitive All Comers pattern?
In this game, specifically, they showed marvelous things but wouldn't they be at least redundant in a very 100% All comers situation? Like in the BAO tournament you're testing your lists for?
I mean, at 2000k just like at 1750k of course.
I'm thinking at something like this in particular:
Toban wrote: So jy2, do you finally consider a 3x Tervigons setup as a balanced/competitive All Comers pattern?
In this game, specifically, they showed marvelous things but wouldn't they be at least redundant in a very 100% All comers situation? Like in the BAO tournament you're testing your lists for?
I mean, at 2000k just like at 1750k of course.
I'm thinking at something like this in particular:
Nids are stronger at lower point levels as there is less firepower around, less psychic defence (the whole ally in psychic defence thing doesn't work as well when you have less points to squeeze them in), and the combos more obvious without having to add (relatively) weaker stuff. 2 Flyrants, 3 Tervigons, 3 Squads of Gaunts and 4 Hive Guard is exactly 1500pts and is rock solid. Once you add the Doom or another unit of Hive Guard you have already run out of good slots before you even hit 1750. Gargoyles and Biovores are decent, and do add things to the army, but compared to Tervigons and Flyrants they are pretty sub par.
This went kind of how I expected it though, the Tervigons spawning so much just made it a bigger uphill battle than it was to start with. The Daemons do hit like a truck, but they have terrible reach, particularly if you throw some chaff in their way. Imo a few less Screamers and Flamers and dropping the Masque so you can take another FMC would seriously help the list, either a standard Lord of Change (a more durable Warlord, another source of Double Bolt and a reasonable combat character) or a Daemon Prince (slightly cheaper depending on upgrades, easier to kill, more combat punch and less shooting).
2012/12/20 14:35:12
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
Toban wrote: So jy2, do you finally consider a 3x Tervigons setup as a balanced/competitive All Comers pattern?
In this game, specifically, they showed marvelous things but wouldn't they be at least redundant in a very 100% All comers situation? Like in the BAO tournament you're testing your lists for?
I mean, at 2000k just like at 1750k of course.
I'm thinking at something like this in particular:
I think the more tervigons you have, the more competitive the army becomes. After all, the tervigons generate free units and they can fight in combat as well now. However, they are slow and can get decimated by certain units. Thus, I do recommend flyrants or the Swarmlord for your HQ's to balance out your list with some offensive kick.
The list is very similar to my own 1750 list, only I run just 1 unit of gargoyles and more biovores with dual flyrants and dual tervigons at 1750. I don't recommend the 3rd tervigon until you get to 2K or higher.
I want to add my two cents and say that Hive Guard are awesome, and the psychological and real effect of the Biovores is really not to be underestimated! Guard blobs, inquistion, Firewarriors/Kroot, reduced tactical marine squads, any Eldar Troop (other than troop Wraithguard but that is rare); in other words, a very large % of troop choices in the game have a very real reason to fear Biovores.
You're welcome!
Yeah, biovores are a very real threat to many of the non-MEQ armies as they will ignore their armor and cover would be hard to get against the barrages. And against MEQ, they can still hurt.
Ruú wrote: Congratulations. This Hive Fleet Pandora Colour scheme Beautiful and Very Strong
Nids are stronger at lower point levels as there is less firepower around, less psychic defence (the whole ally in psychic defence thing doesn't work as well when you have less points to squeeze them in), and the combos more obvious without having to add (relatively) weaker stuff. 2 Flyrants, 3 Tervigons, 3 Squads of Gaunts and 4 Hive Guard is exactly 1500pts and is rock solid. Once you add the Doom or another unit of Hive Guard you have already run out of good slots before you even hit 1750. Gargoyles and Biovores are decent, and do add things to the army, but compared to Tervigons and Flyrants they are pretty sub par.
This went kind of how I expected it though, the Tervigons spawning so much just made it a bigger uphill battle than it was to start with. The Daemons do hit like a truck, but they have terrible reach, particularly if you throw some chaff in their way. Imo a few less Screamers and Flamers and dropping the Masque so you can take another FMC would seriously help the list, either a standard Lord of Change (a more durable Warlord, another source of Double Bolt and a reasonable combat character) or a Daemon Prince (slightly cheaper depending on upgrades, easier to kill, more combat punch and less shooting).
I feel that the sweet spot for tyranids is at around the 2K level. But even at the lower points levels (1.5K or less), tyranids can definitely be a handful, especially since at those points levels, most armies will have trouble dealing with 4-5 monstrous creatures (however, I wouldn't run more than 2 tervigons at 1.5K).
For my normal daemon list, I only run 2 units each of the flamers and screamers. I then fill out the heavies with either FMC's or a couple of soulgrinders. I started off daemons in 6th running the daemon flying circus (i.e. mainly flying monstrous creatures) but currently I will go with dual soulgrinders in my daemon army. I think they make the daemon list a little more balanced.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/20 17:06:50
This game played out about how I expected. I played a slightly different list at Da Boyz against the Tyranids w/ 12x Fiends and 2x Grinders and only 1 flamer, 1 screamer unit.
I played the same tyranids minus the doom for another 2x Hive Guard and no gargoylesbut 2x Dakka Fex at 1850.
Without Slaanesh units - and even with them - it is brutally difficult to take down the Tyranids with the tools at hand. I managed to luckily ground both Tyrants and put a unit of Fiends into each but they had Warp Speed, Endurance and Iron Arm up on them and some lucky 5++ saves made the game really tough.
The flamers just do not work against Tyranids the way you want - it is really hard to generate 6x wounds on a tervi with them and if you do not, the flamers are just about done due to the gaunts that arrive the next turn. That obligates you to commit the screamers - but with an Iron Arm on the Tervi (Endurance too is even worse) - the Screamers really struggle to punch through that T6 (or 7 - 9)
Edit: I am surprised you did not tie up fate sooner - locking him in place wiht Gaunts due to hit 2 attacks keeps him there and forces daemons to stay within 6" of the combat or lose his buffs - it really negates the daemons speed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 01:47:04
Great analysis overall. You have much experience playing against the bugs.
As for Fateweaver, I really didn't have a chance to try to tie him up until I believe Turn 4. Initially, the bugs had to get past the screamer screen, which they couldn't do. Then I believe on Turn 3(?), when the termagants where getting ready to lock up Fateweaver, their own biovores accidentally killed them with a scatter.
And I decided against shooting at Fateweaver because he would have just sucked up too much firepower that I felt were better utilized in depleting the number of offensive threats. When there are a number of equally high-priority targets, my strategy now is to kill the easier-to-kill ones first. Save the hardest ones last. I just don't want to waste my limited firepower on him until I have no other high-priority targets that are easier to kill.
Just crazy number of gaunts. I'm not sure I have a list that can shut that down lol. Even purifiers would be hard pressed to get through so many bodies.
+ Thought of the day + Not even in death does duty end.
2012/12/21 17:02:29
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
By shooting down the gant-factories. There's no way almost any army can deal with that many bodies supported by 5 monstrous creatures and the Doom. You just have to take out its source.
Dark Eldar are still the bane of any Nid army... tons of poison and S8 ap2 guns will down tervigons pretty fast...
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2012/12/22 08:29:45
Subject: 2K BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Ultra-Competitive Tzeentch Daemons (Completed)
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
- 1500 6th ed codex: 2 wins, 1 loss, 0 draws 
(
) 2000 pts growing to 4000... 
