Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

On a related note. Adamantine mantle (C:BT) says that the model does not suffer ID from a weapon whose strength is at least 2x toughness. I'm assuming if hit with a Daemon Hammer, he'd be immune to ID from Force activation?

Hm, I will have to check my codex, but if that is word-for-word what it says, then yes he would be immune unless the DH was wielded by a Str. 3 Model (Ordo Malleus Inquisitor with Terminator Armor)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For all you people out there, the rule that Happyjew refers to is:
"The character [equipped with the Adamantine Mantle] does not suffer Instant Death when wounded by a weapon whose Strength is at least twice the character's toughness, instead taking a single wound."

It seems that RAI is clearly different from RAW, but RAW he would be protected from activated daemonhammers.

The rules for the mantle are really old.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rules for the mantle are really old.

Yes. Yes they are.

The rules for Kharn are really new.

Happyjew wrote:The rules for Kharn are really new.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Yes. Yes they are.

RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

 schadenfreude wrote:
RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

This post gave me cancer.

But yeah, i think we all understand how this works now. Could it be reversed in a faq?
Certainly.
Until then?
Kharne triumphs over all mind-metal.

DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

Neronoxx wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
RAW he's immune to force weapon ID regardless if the source of ID comes from force weapon activation or double toughness. The notion that he's only immune to force weapon activation is pure RAI based on the assumption that the game developers only intended for it to work on activation, and if we discard common sense to follow the letter of the law the argument that kharne is immune to ID caused by double toughness from a force weapon but can still be killed by force weapon activation is as valid as the argument that double t id him cut activation doesn't. Kharnes rules never specifies what source of ID he is immune to when a FW ID him, so without that specification he is immune to all sources of ID if it comes from a FW. The logical and common sense assumption of RAI=only immune to activation is both an assumption and RAI.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only RAW.

This post gave me cancer.

But yeah, i think we all understand how this works now. Could it be reversed in a faq?
Certainly.
Until then?
Kharne triumphs over all mind-metal.

The FDA classifies pure uncut RAW as a carcinogen, it should only be handled per OSHA guidelines.

Yes an errata or FAQ can change it. If GW does get around to it in their next FAQ I would expect it to go along your RAI, until then obey all OSHA guidlines.

Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

All of the butthurt!!!
Its funny and ironic that you would say that, as one of the people misconceiving it.
Try this.
"Joe billy is immune to ID from all specialist weapons."
Can a power fist ID him?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Another amazingly bad misconceived interpretation.

Are there any rules to back you up?

Or just improper context?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

- Removed by insaniak -

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

Context of the rule. Kharn cannot be ID'd by a FW. Regardless of how it would inflict ID.

As I don't play CSM/IF I did I wouldn't play Kharn agreed to that last bit.

Ok. I think it is time for everyone to step back, calm down, enjoy some Christmas beer, uh, cheer, and stop insulting each other.

Edited by AgeOfEgos

7 pages of good discussion without anyone calling anyone names, or breaking any of the tenets of the forum.

And then there is this.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Edited by AgeOfEgos

Or we could discuss it like men (aka grown ups) and not take shots at the other posters by calling them names...

P.S. my IQ is 145 and I have read these rules many times over, so I am neither "ignorant" or "stupid"

Words like butthurt are completely unnecessary. Now stop fanning the flame.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - there is no context stating FW activation, none at all. The only context is that he is immune to ID caused by Force Weapons. Force Weapons can cause ID EITHER through their activation OR through conferring S twice that of the targets toughness.

Kharne MUST be immune to both, otherwise you are ignoring rules

Dozer - still no rules to back up your houserule?

And [all] force weapons cause ID based on the Force rule on P.37.

That is the rule that applies to every force weapon, thus that is the context of Kharn's rule.

Ignore the context and house rule it however you wish.

It is not going to affect my army one bit.

And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Words like butthurt are completely unnecessary. Now stop fanning the flame.

Then maybe accept that this is a perfectly legal ruling with no abuse at all?

Afterall, you've made your case, and were wrong. Being unable to cite any legitamamte defense from the brb and relying on what you would guess to be context (which by the way is being presumptuous as you did not write the book) has proven you wrong, while the opposite side has a clearcut legal defense. Yet people still insist on hashing this out and refusing to read the previous 6 pages where this can all be seen as clear as day.
I'm not fanning any flames here. I'm trying to make a point.

Oh so you work for GW as a developer and your word is gold? I don't think so.

And this is why you do not argue HYWPI against RAW.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh so you work for GW as a developer and your word is gold? I don't think so.

i didn't say that, now did i Dozer Blades?
No, all i said was you are relying on a context that you cannot prove is there, and that there is substantial evidence that Kharn cannot be ID'd by any force weapon.
However if you would like to keep posting intelligence-killing posts, be my guest as i have no calms with your behavior. In fact i'm laughing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
And this is why you do not argue HYWPI against RAW.

I don't argue HYWPI. what's the point? Everyone would play it differently.
I only argue RAW. That's the same no matter what (usually.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

So the only thing Kharn's rule can be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And ALL weapons cause ID by having S>=2T. Kharne is immune to ID from FW, which includes both activated ID and also Strength.

You are ignoring the rules which state that weapons cause wounds which cause ID.

All weapons do, not ignoring that, but not all force weapons have Str double tough. Therefore all force weapons do not ID based on S>=2T.

All of them can. And Hammers don't always ID on double toughness. This is an irrelevant statement.

So the only thing Kharn's rule can be referencing is the Force USR, that all force weapons possess, and subsequently how all force weapons cause ID, as noted on P. 37

Not true. If he was enfeebled and hit by a double hammer hand NF Sword, it'd double him out. Therefore your assumption is incorrect.

Deathreaper and Dozer Blades:
Context is RAI. That's not the issue. RAW says Kharn is immune to ID from a Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with the Instant Death special rule and strength twice his toughness, would not ID him. Was the intention? Maybe, maybe not. But that is what context matters for. Context does not matter for RAW.

Actually, no - context matters for RAW, but there's no context in this case that matters.

kaisshau wrote:
Deathreaper and Dozer Blades:
Context is RAI. That's not the issue. RAW says Kharn is immune to ID from a Force Weapon. A Force Weapon with the Instant Death special rule and strength twice his toughness, would not ID him. Was the intention? Maybe, maybe not. But that is what context matters for. Context does not matter for RAW.

And it's really that simple!