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 MetalOxide wrote:
I would never move to America, due to the guns. They seem way too easy for an average person, with no real training or intelligence to get. Unfortunatley it appears that alot of Amerians are ignorant to the fact that they don't need guns, and make a massive conspiracy out of gun control laws.

Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

 Seaward wrote:
Not the case, but it sure seems like that, according to the media.

Yeah, I'm ignoring the whole "they used a SUPERGUN9000 with CHILD SEEKING BULLETS" and just going on "on Tuesday there was a gun attack which killed x people and injured y".

Of course it would. One of the stated goals of the AWB, according to its proponents - some of whom have admitted that it's nothing more than "do something!" showpiece legislation - is to break the dam on restriction, banning, and confiscation.

And the stated goal of a lot of groups is to bring about the complete and total change of whatever it is that group is targeting. I don't think I know of a single instance where that has ever been achieved, other than in the cases of violent revolutions backed by popular support. More often than not you get a moderation of any change (if anything happens at all). Just look at the neutered healthcare bill you guys pushed through.

We don't have a kid.

Surprisingly I realise that. However, is sticking a gun "in a draw" really that a safe a place to store it? It kind of related to what I said following that question, but more on that in a second...

No, see, we're not the UK. That "regardless of whether it's the state's business or not," part of your statement doesn't fly over here.

That isn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that is or is not a gun more secure if it is locked in a gun safe, and would or would not that prevent the majority of people who should not have access to that gun from accessing it?

I find the notion that any of the mass killers have been something other than die hards, or possibly on the fence, to be kind of hilarious, in a very dark way. If you leave your house to kill fifteen people, you've made your call. It's not a whimsical, "Hell, it's Tuesday, I'm bored," thing that a minor impediment would stop.

I find the notion that you cannot understand that ease of access promotes ease of carrying out these kinds of actions to be kind of hilarious, in a very dark way. Undoubtedly someone who says "Man, I am being bullied at school and so I am going to go in and shoot them all" will find doing that a hell of a lot easier if his parents leave their guns unsecured in a draw or cupboard, than if they are locked in a safe to which they do not have access. Again, that kid has to be a lot more driven to gain access to the guns than to just decide one day to pick them up and take them to school (or to lay out a plan of attack over however many days or weeks, then just go into the bedroom and take the gun out of a draw before they leave the house).

And again, I am not saying that it will stop every attack, but it adds just a little more protection, another layer of safety on gun ownership. And this is kind of ignoring every other suggestion I made and looking at gun owners just putting their guns in a bloody safe rather than a sock draw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

 SilverMK2 wrote:
And if you had a kid, would the "back of the nightstand" be a safe place to store it? Regardless of whether it is the state's business or not, if you don't keep your guns secure, you invite all sorts of trouble. None of the children who have carried out shootings in the past could buy guns in stores (one bit of gun control that I feel you guys got right ), so where exactly do they get their guns? If part of your gun ownership licence stipulates that you have to have a gun safe, that is another layer of protection against these kids getting their hands on guns when they are not supposed to.

Again, it will not stop the die hards, or those whose parents/relatives don't adequately secure their guns, but it builds in another level of protection. And again, does it really cost you much (in money, time, etc) to have a locked safe bolted into the back of your night stand/wardrobe/etc?

Thats utter nonsense. Why on earth do you need a bolted safe? What idiocy is this? A bolt down safe is incredibly expensive for what it does. Its designed to be expensive and thus keep the commoners from having something.
You can get a simple $40 safe if all you want to do is keep them out of reach of kids. We have two quick open safes for just that reason.

So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats utter nonsense. Why on earth do you need a bolted safe? What idiocy is this? A bolt down safe is incredibly expensive for what it does. Its designed to be expensive and thus keep the commoners from having something.
You can get a simple $40 safe if all you want to do is keep them out of reach of kids. We have two quick open safes for just that reason.

Any safe is better than no safe and I am very glad to know you use them - I personally am not really up on the costs of gun safes because I don't really use them (though my understanding is that in the UK shotguns etc must be secured in a bolted gun safe)

A bolted safe prevents the gun safe being removed to another location to be opened by someone without much skill (such as cutting through them, using a crowbar etc - all activities which cannot really be done undetected in the home).

Again, just spitballing ideas rather than laying out a detailed proposal to be passed through your law making system.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

There you go with your hyperbole again. Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Actually, I don't have a CCW because I currently live in the only state that does not allow them. That'll be fixed next year though, since it was finally stricken down.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

 MetalOxide wrote:
I would never move to America, due to the guns. They seem way too easy for an average person, with no real training or intelligence to get. Unfortunatley it appears that alot of Amerians are ignorant to the fact that they don't need guns, and make a massive conspiracy out of gun control laws.

Its part of our Bill of Rights, and a fundamental partof our culture. Its not "ignorant." I love the slams from people who have no knoweldge from a completely different country.

Don't you have some monarch to go kiss up to?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Yeah, I'm ignoring the whole "they used a SUPERGUN9000 with CHILD SEEKING BULLETS" and just going on "on Tuesday there was a gun attack which killed x people and injured y".

Then you'd be interested to know that mass shootings hit their peak in the '90s and have been on a downward decline since.

Surprisingly I realise that. However, is sticking a gun "in a draw" really that a safe a place to store it? It kind of related to what I said following that question, but more on that in a second...

If I doubted it wasn't that safe a place to store it, I probably wouldn't keep it in the exact same holster a couple inches above my genitals on a daily basis.

That isn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that is or is not a gun more secure if it is locked in a gun safe, and would or would not that prevent the majority of people who should not have access to that gun from accessing it?

Such as who? My girlfriend has access to my gun currently - as I have access to hers - and that would not change were it locked in a safe.

I find the notion that you cannot understand that ease of access promotes ease of carrying out these kinds of actions to be kind of hilarious, in a very dark way. Undoubtedly someone who says "Man, I am being bullied at school and so I am going to go in and shoot them all" will find doing that a hell of a lot easier if his parents leave their guns unsecured in a draw or cupboard, than if they are locked in a safe to which they do not have access. Again, that kid has to be a lot more driven to gain access to the guns than to just decide one day to pick them up and take them to school (or to lay out a plan of attack over however many days or weeks, then just go into the bedroom and take the gun out of a draw before they leave the house).

No, sorry. I don't buy that someone who means to kill his classmates is going to be stopped from doing so by the lack of availability of one chosen weapon. Someone committed to the notion is going to carry it out, whether it's shooting everybody, or making bombs out of household chemicals and five minutes on the internet, or chaining the doors shut and setting the place on fire.

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

It doesn't act as a magic bullet shield, unfortunately. It does provide you with options beyond trying to call the police to make sure they know where to find your corpse when they show up five minutes later.

djones520 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

There you go with your hyperbole again. Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Actually, I don't have a CCW because I currently live in the only state that does not allow them. That'll be fixed next year though, since it was finally stricken down.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Yeah good one! The Daily-Mail is always reliable!

 MetalOxide wrote:
I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

Automatic weapons are by and large restrictive to own.

The perception that I could walk out and buy an Uzi is not a correct one.

I'd love to see someone safely install one of those bolt down monstrosities into a 3rd floor apartment.

The cost of the things is ridiculous. That's also the easy part. Moving with the thing and installing/removing the thing without getting killed or spending very much more than your collection is worth is the MUCH bigger issue.

A bolted safe prevents the gun safe being removed to another location to be opened by someone without much skill

This is also completely and utterly wrong. When I bought mine, I was very realistic about how much time and security it will buy me: Almost none. What it will get me is visibility. Wrapping a chain around a fridge sized object, attaching the other end to a pickups trailer hitch and gunning the gas is not what I would term "Difficult." ....and a small O/A cutting torch will cut 20mm steel plate about like pouring hot water on a block of ice. It's also not going to be very difficult to take a portable grinder and cut the whole <CENSORED> door off the hinges/frame, a few minutes perhaps.

....But someone is hopefully going to notice if any of these approaches are attempted. Maybe.

 Frazzled wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I would never move to America, due to the guns. They seem way too easy for an average person, with no real training or intelligence to get. Unfortunatley it appears that alot of Amerians are ignorant to the fact that they don't need guns, and make a massive conspiracy out of gun control laws.

Its part of our Bill of Rights, and a fundamental part of our culture. Its not "ignorant." I love the slams from people who have no knoweldge from a completely different country.

Don't you have some monarch to go kiss up to?

Then maybe you should not engage them in the same way?

Educate, do not retaliate.

 MetalOxide wrote:
I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

Automatic weapons have been banned for new sales in the US since 1986. Anything manufactured prior to '86 is still legal for transfer, but that's a dwindling supply and comes with mountains of red tape. Also, to the best of my knowledge, a legally-purchased automatic weapon has not been used in the commission of a crime since the ban.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Because I don't like spending money on stupidity. Kanluwen the liberties destroyer on the other hand might. Whatever floats your boat.

djones520 wrote:
There you go with your hyperbole again.

Yep. Sometimes satire is the best way to get through to some people.

Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Acting like owning/carring a gun is in any way necessary *rolls eyes*

Again, I would love if the UK had more open firearms laws as I would love to engage in a spot of shooting, but I would rather be denied that and have a more gun free society.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

And as I have pointed out in several threads, "violent crime" is not reported in the same way in different countries. The UK includes several crimes in the "violent crime" category which are not included by other countries such as the USA.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Ah yes, the Daily Fail. Kind of like our Fox News, except slightly more accurate very occasionally.

 Seaward wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

Automatic weapons have been banned for new sales in the US since 1986. Anything manufactured prior to '86 is still legal for transfer, but that's a dwindling supply and comes with mountains of red tape. Also, to the best of my knowledge, a legally-purchased automatic weapon has not been used in the commission of a crime since the ban.

Facts man... their so inconvenient.

 Seaward wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

Automatic weapons have been banned for new sales in the US since 1986. Anything manufactured prior to '86 is still legal for transfer, but that's a dwindling supply and comes with mountains of red tape. Also, to the best of my knowledge, a legally-purchased automatic weapon has not been used in the commission of a crime since the ban.

Interesting,.. gonna have to do more reasearch now

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Yes, I own a rifle, a cleaning kit, and 25 rounds of ammunition, I spent maybe 100 dollars US, Gun cases are expensive. But I don't live with kids, and my rifle is stored in my room far out of sight of anyone in my house.

 MetalOxide wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

There you go with your hyperbole again. Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Actually, I don't have a CCW because I currently live in the only state that does not allow them. That'll be fixed next year though, since it was finally stricken down.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Yeah good one! The Daily-Mail is always reliable!

When all else fails, attack the source. Never mind the fact that the numbers are solid.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Thats utter nonsense. Why on earth do you need a bolted safe? What idiocy is this? A bolt down safe is incredibly expensive for what it does. Its designed to be expensive and thus keep the commoners from having something.
You can get a simple $40 safe if all you want to do is keep them out of reach of kids. We have two quick open safes for just that reason.

Any safe is better than no safe and I am very glad to know you use them - I personally am not really up on the costs of gun safes because I don't really use them (though my understanding is that in the UK shotguns etc must be secured in a bolted gun safe)

A bolted safe prevents the gun safe being removed to another location to be opened by someone without much skill (such as cutting through them, using a crowbar etc - all activities which cannot really be done undetected in the home).

Again, just spitballing ideas rather than laying out a detailed proposal to be passed through your law making system.

If you're worried about kids removing your safe to another location: 1) you don't have a clue as parent; 2) you've got a whole lot of other issues to deal with; 3) you've failed in Life (TM). Seriously, this is crazy talk.

They have to 1) get the safe; 2) move the safe; 3) somehow then get the safe pried open.
And this is a 7 year old right? Who are you raising? Zombie Manson?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Because I don't like spending money on stupidity. Kanluwen the liberties destroyer on the other hand might. Whatever floats your boat.

If you cannot engage in a discussion without namecalling, I suggest you take a break.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Yes, I own a rifle, a cleaning kit, and 25 rounds of ammunition, I spent maybe 100 dollars US, Gun cases are expensive. But I don't live with kids, and my rifle is stored in my room far out of sight of anyone in my house.

Gun cases for long arms are a bit of a different story, I will totally agree with that.

However I think you would agree with me in that if you lived with children or others had reliable access to the rifle you would not just be throwing it in your closet?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Acting like owning/carring a gun is in any way necessary *rolls eyes*

There are, by some estimates, three times as many guns in private ownership - and an unknown amount of illegal guns - in the United States than there are people in the United Kingdom. Defensive gun uses in the United States happen somewhere between KalashnikovMarine's likely high number of once every 13 seconds and sebster's hilariously low number of once every 28.5 hours.

Kanluwen, my guns are in my closet. My oldest son (only one of age to even know how to open a door) is extremely aware that they are nothing that he is allowed to touch. He won't even go into the closet without direct permission.

It's about being an actual parent, and teaching your children right.

 Frazzled wrote:
And this is a 7 year old right? Who are you raising? Zombie Manson?

With all those bovine growth hormones in your beef, I'm surprised you don't have a generation of little Hulks running around who can rip gun safes apart with their bare hands

But joking aside, your average 13/14 year old has enough brain cells to rub together to figure out how to open a basic gun safe with a crowbar. And if you have these kids that Seaward is talking about who were apparently adopted from MacGyver planning an attack on their school, well... it should be childs play to get the safe open. If you will forgive the expression.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
But joking aside, your average 13/14 year old has enough brain cells to rub together to figure out how to open a basic gun safe with a crowbar. And if you have these kids that Seaward is talking about who were apparently adopted from MacGyver planning an attack on their school, well... it should be childs play to get the safe open. If you will forgive the expression.

That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Yes, I own a rifle, a cleaning kit, and 25 rounds of ammunition, I spent maybe 100 dollars US, Gun cases are expensive. But I don't live with kids, and my rifle is stored in my room far out of sight of anyone in my house.

Gun cases for long arms are a bit of a different story, I will totally agree with that.

However I think you would agree with me in that if you lived with children or others had reliable access to the rifle you would not just be throwing it in your closet?

Agreed, I would most likely not own the firearm that I do own, and like I said in the Connecticut shooting thread (though my voice is far quieter than others), I would most likely sold it if I had a kid. Though I would probably buy a hand gun, keep it in a very nice keypad combination safe that only I knew the combination to, and I would keep it in one of my drawers under my bed (sleep on an old water bed frame from the 70s). It's safe, it's handy if I need it for defense, and only I know the combination.

My boss, who is ex-military, said it decently well yesterday at lunch... Your hand gun allows you to get to your rifle. Though I doubt I would need a mosin in issues of home defense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
But joking aside, your average 13/14 year old has enough brain cells to rub together to figure out how to open a basic gun safe with a crowbar. And if you have these kids that Seaward is talking about who were apparently adopted from MacGyver planning an attack on their school, well... it should be childs play to get the safe open. If you will forgive the expression.

That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

Silver, the real question is, why are your kids gaining access to your crowbar .

But seriously, I don't know of many 13/14 yr olds that have the strength to pry a safe open with a crowbar... Just watch Storage wars, a grown man has issues with cracking the safe.

 Seaward wrote:
That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

It does however then take some skill to turn that into some kind of fire bomb, to which I believe you were referring to, rather than just pouring petrol all over the place and putting a match to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Silver, the real question is, why are your kids gaining access to your crowbar .

Damn, I knew I should have kept my crowbar in a crowbar safe rather than just in my nightstand!

But seriously, I don't know of many 13/14 yr olds that have the strength to pry a safe open with a crowbar... Just watch Storage wars, a grown man has issues with cracking the safe.

So are we agreed that if everyone kept their guns in a safe, there would be far fewer kids having access to them in order to go around shooting up their schools?

Is that the point I was making all along?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It does however then take some skill to turn that into some kind of fire bomb, to which I believe you were referring to, rather than just pouring petrol all over the place and putting a match to it.

I wasn't, actually.

That New York mass murder I referred to earlier in the thread? One of the largest in US history. Guy just poured some gas in the stairwell of a night club, lit it on fire, and walked off. Killed 87 people.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

It does however then take some skill to turn that into some kind of fire bomb, to which I believe you were referring to, rather than just pouring petrol all over the place and putting a match to it.

It's actually not hard to do that...

Just thinking about my high school, if I wanted to do such an act, all I would have to do is wait until there is a major play going on. Access to the inner parts of the school, 0 security (it's after hours), and the ability to get things into the building without triggering alarms (more doors unlocked). And you've got 2+ hours to spread the petrol... Though in such cases you'd probably want diesel fuel... doesn't evaporate as fast...