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 MetalOxide wrote:
I personally think that automatic weapons should be banned in the US. There is absolutley no need for an average citizen to have one at all. All they need is a rifle for hunting and a hand gun for defending your home. There should also be a limit to how powerful the handgun/ rifle should be.

Automatic weapons ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL HERE without a very specialized permit that you're not going to be able to get, with much higher federal scrutiny. Further, I don't think there's been a case of a crime with a legally owned automatic weapon since this was put in place in the 30s.

This is the problem, people making ignorant statements and then saying we should have such and such law.

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
It does however then take some skill to turn that into some kind of fire bomb, to which I believe you were referring to, rather than just pouring petrol all over the place and putting a match to it.

I wasn't, actually.

That New York mass murder I referred to earlier in the thread? One of the largest in US history. Guy just poured some gas in the stairwell of a night club, lit it on fire, and walked off. Killed 87 people.

What was the name of that club? I'm interested in reading about that...

 Alfndrate wrote:
What was the name of that club? I'm interested in reading about that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_Fire

 Seaward wrote:
I wasn't, actually.

That New York mass murder I referred to earlier in the thread? One of the largest in US history. Guy just poured some gas in the stairwell of a night club, lit it on fire, and walked off. Killed 87 people.

Then I apologise, I thought you were talking about some kind of fuel bomb. But then again, with the US paying almost as much for fuel as we do in the UK, it is probably cheaper for kids to get a gun from somewhere

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I would never move to America, due to the guns. They seem way too easy for an average person, with no real training or intelligence to get. Unfortunatley it appears that alot of Amerians are ignorant to the fact that they don't need guns, and make a massive conspiracy out of gun control laws.

Its part of our Bill of Rights, and a fundamental part of our culture. Its not "ignorant." I love the slams from people who have no knoweldge from a completely different country.

Don't you have some monarch to go kiss up to?

Then maybe you should not engage them in the same way?

Educate, do not retaliate.

"If he puts one of your men in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue." Santa Claus.

 Frazzled wrote:
Automatic weapons ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL HERE without a very specialized permit that you're not going to be able to get, with much higher federal scrutiny. Further, I don't think there's been a case of a crime with a legally owned automatic weapon since this was put in place in the 30s.

This is the problem, people making ignorant statements and then saying we should have such and such law.

And do people feel that this flagrant breach of their 2nd amendment rights is something that is worth suffering through for the greater good? Do you daily have to struggle on through the pain of knowing that you can't own a fully automatic weapon without filling out some paperwork and undergoing some kind of security checks?

djones520 wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

There you go with your hyperbole again. Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Actually, I don't have a CCW because I currently live in the only state that does not allow them. That'll be fixed next year though, since it was finally stricken down.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Yeah good one! The Daily-Mail is always reliable!

When all else fails, attack the source. Never mind the fact that the numbers are solid.

No, the numbers are not solid. The Daily mail is a watered down version of your Fox News. The Daily Mail typically likes to use scare-mongering tactics to try and get people to believe in the old-style right wing views. The only information I can find on the UK having a higher violent crime rate than the US is the SUN, Telegraph and Daily Mail, all not so very credible news sources.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
And this is a 7 year old right? Who are you raising? Zombie Manson?

With all those bovine growth hormones in your beef, I'm surprised you don't have a generation of little Hulks running around who can rip gun safes apart with their bare hands

You're right. I forgot about our Jr. High football teams.
OT but my Boy's school is going to State this year. Wow. He's not thrilled.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can afford the expense of buying the gun and ammunition but not a bolt down safe?

Because I don't like spending money on stupidity. Kanluwen the liberties destroyer on the other hand might. Whatever floats your boat.

If you cannot engage in a discussion without namecalling, I suggest you take a break.

Summarizing your posting history =\= name calling.
Have a great summer.

djones520 wrote:Kanluwen, my guns are in my closet. My oldest son (only one of age to even know how to open a door) is extremely aware that they are nothing that he is allowed to touch. He won't even go into the closet without direct permission.

It's about being an actual parent, and teaching your children right.

I personally think you are in grave error and that your thought process has lead to hundreds of child shooting incidents. There needs to be a mechanical lock between your guns and your kids. Locks keep honest men honest and good kids good. Even a chintzy Walmart wall locker is better at keeping your kids safe than hoping your authority will overcome a child's natural curiosity and rebellion.
But thier are your guns and you kids.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
And do people feel that this flagrant breach of their 2nd amendment rights is something that is worth suffering through for the greater good? Do you daily have to struggle on through the pain of knowing that you can't own a fully automatic weapon without filling out some paperwork and undergoing some kind of security checks?

I think the greater good would be served by letting them back on the market. The cold truth is we'd probably have fewer fatalities in situations like this if these scrawny outcasts tried to off their class with the selector on rock and roll.

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
But joking aside, your average 13/14 year old has enough brain cells to rub together to figure out how to open a basic gun safe with a crowbar. And if you have these kids that Seaward is talking about who were apparently adopted from MacGyver planning an attack on their school, well... it should be childs play to get the safe open. If you will forgive the expression.

That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

Frazzled remembers fire. Nog was always putzing about in the fields even during storms. Then lightning hit Nog. And thus, fire was born!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

My boss, who is ex-military, said it decently well yesterday at lunch... Your hand gun allows you to get to your rifle. Though I doubt I would need a mosin in issues of home defense.

Hey you never know when the Hitlerites are going to invade Mother Russia.

Tell me, do you ever have the urge to lie down in a slit trench? Invade Berlin?

MetalOxide wrote:. The only information I can find on the UK having a higher violent crime rate than the US is the SUN, Telegraph and Daily Mail, all not so very credible news sources.

I suppose you don't find EuroStat very credible either...

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
And do people feel that this flagrant breach of their 2nd amendment rights is something that is worth suffering through for the greater good? Do you daily have to struggle on through the pain of knowing that you can't own a fully automatic weapon without filling out some paperwork and undergoing some kind of security checks?

I think the greater good would be served by letting them back on the market. The cold truth is we'd probably have fewer fatalities in situations like this if these scrawny outcasts tried to off their class with the selector on rock and roll.

I never understood why flamethrowers were banned. Sure, you will probably take out the building, but most of these guys probably couldn't even lift one and they are only good for a handful of shots

djones520 wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Living in the UK, there's a good chance he won't be hit either. Or even shot at.

Living in the US there is a pretty good chance of that as well. I'm 28, 11 years in the military, frequently visit Detroit and St. Louis, and I've never been shot at.

Yup... as I can attest to as well.

Shoot, I went to school in the city participating in the reverse segregation program and stayed late in some of the toughest neighborhood at nights. Not once was I shot at, heard any shoots or even seen any shooting aftermaths...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
That's true. It takes surpassing intellect to determine that flammable material + ignition source = fire.

It does however then take some skill to turn that into some kind of fire bomb, to which I believe you were referring to, rather than just pouring petrol all over the place and putting a match to it.

It's actually not hard to do that...

Just thinking about my high school, if I wanted to do such an act, all I would have to do is wait until there is a major play going on. Access to the inner parts of the school, 0 security (it's after hours), and the ability to get things into the building without triggering alarms (more doors unlocked). And you've got 2+ hours to spread the petrol... Though in such cases you'd probably want diesel fuel... doesn't evaporate as fast...

Bottle with 1/3 gasoline, 1/3 kerosene, 1/3 dissolved styrofoam in suspension...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
I wasn't, actually.

That New York mass murder I referred to earlier in the thread? One of the largest in US history. Guy just poured some gas in the stairwell of a night club, lit it on fire, and walked off. Killed 87 people.

Then I apologise, I thought you were talking about some kind of fuel bomb. But then again, with the US paying almost as much for fuel as we do in the UK, it is probably cheaper for kids to get a gun from somewhere

That we can agree on. *

*And the greatness of British ales.

djones520 wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

djones520 wrote:
Or maybe you folks are ignorant about how things work on this side of the pond. This country doesn't operate on NEED. That's what freedom means.

Yep, you are free to get gunned down whenever you want!

Oh, wait, you concealed carry? Well, that will act as a magic bullet sheild which will prevent you from ever being harmed too!

There you go with your hyperbole again. Acting like this is Afghanistan or something. *roles eyes*

Actually, I don't have a CCW because I currently live in the only state that does not allow them. That'll be fixed next year though, since it was finally stricken down.

And maybe you should get off your high horse buddy. Your countries violent crime rate is 5 times that of the US. Per your own media.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Yeah good one! The Daily-Mail is always reliable!

When all else fails, attack the source. Never mind the fact that the numbers are solid.

The numbers aren't solid though are they ?

For starters the artilce is 3 years old, if we delve to this year...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900384

The number of murders and killings in England and Wales has fallen to the lowest level in nearly 30 years, Office for National Statistics figures show.

Police recorded 550 homicides in 2011-12, 88 fewer than the previous year and the lowest number since 1983.

Recorded violence against the person fell by 7%, continuing a downward trend in recent years

Provisional data shows 5,911 firearm offences were recorded - 16% down - of which 39 resulted in a death.

If we go back to the article you cite we note

In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.

Which throws the figures off mightily.


Plus of course the figures quoted for the USA must be wwaayy off or otherwise the sheer number of times a firearm saves someone in the USA presented on this board over and over again are completely inaccurate.

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Automatic weapons ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL HERE without a very specialized permit that you're not going to be able to get, with much higher federal scrutiny. Further, I don't think there's been a case of a crime with a legally owned automatic weapon since this was put in place in the 30s.

This is the problem, people making ignorant statements and then saying we should have such and such law.

And do people feel that this flagrant breach of their 2nd amendment rights is something that is worth suffering through for the greater good? Do you daily have to struggle on through the pain of knowing that you can't own a fully automatic weapon without filling out some paperwork and undergoing some kind of security checks?

Nope, just responding to the ignorance of another poster.

I only had the urge to invade Berlin twice in my life . Once was when playing Call of Duty: World at War, and the second time was when planning my "authentic" WWII Russian Themed army.

And the mosin was the example because that is currently the rifle I own. I'd rather own a hand gun, but I can't afford to purchase one at the moment. I got the mosin off of a buddy's day. He bought a pair from an old friend, gave them to my buddy who gave one to me.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I only had the urge to invade Berlin twice in my life . Once was when playing Call of Duty: World at War, and the second time was when planning my "authentic" WWII Russian Themed army.

And the mosin was the example because that is currently the rifle I own. I'd rather own a hand gun, but I can't afford to purchase one at the moment. I got the mosin off of a buddy's day. He bought a pair from an old friend, gave them to my buddy who gave one to me.

That is your rifle. There are many like it, but that one's yours.

 Seaward wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I only had the urge to invade Berlin twice in my life . Once was when playing Call of Duty: World at War, and the second time was when planning my "authentic" WWII Russian Themed army.

And the mosin was the example because that is currently the rifle I own. I'd rather own a hand gun, but I can't afford to purchase one at the moment. I got the mosin off of a buddy's day. He bought a pair from an old friend, gave them to my buddy who gave one to me.

That is your rifle. There are many like it, but that one's yours.

All original parts from the same factory too

My gun is older than my dad (but only by 3 years)

I personally think you are in grave error and that your thought process has lead to hundreds of child shooting incidents. There needs to be a mechanical lock between your guns and your kids. Locks keep honest men honest and good kids good. Even a chintzy Walmart wall locker is better at keeping your kids safe than hoping your authority will overcome a child's natural curiosity and rebellion.
But thier are your guns and you kids.

Agreed. Here are some good options (if you don't have something already which was not noted).
1. Simple lock on the door, down to even a simple padlock.
2. Some rifle bags are made to have padlocks on them. Thats an excellent option as well.
3. Lock up the ammo.

Thats what we do for the long guns. We just have the ammo locked up.
Pistols? Pistols are in safes or locked up.

 whembly wrote:

djones520 wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
Living in the UK, there's a good chance he won't be hit either. Or even shot at.

Living in the US there is a pretty good chance of that as well. I'm 28, 11 years in the military, frequently visit Detroit and St. Louis, and I've never been shot at.

Yup... as I can attest to as well.

Shoot, I went to school in the city participating in the reverse segregation program and stayed late in some of the toughest neighborhood at nights. Not once was I shot at, heard any shoots or even seen any shooting aftermaths...

The first time I remember seeing a gun was in an airport in the UK when a couple of armed police walked through the waiting lounge. I can remember thinking something along the lines of "HOLYGAKTHEYHAVEGUNS!"

On my several trips across to Americaland the only times I ever saw guns were pistols on airport security and a few policemen walking around. Next time I go I will see if I can find a shooting range that will let me have a go

Other than that I have seen armed police in quite a few countries around the world; Egypt, Gambia, Malaysia, Thailand, the UAE, etc. I can't remember if I saw any guns in Australia.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I only had the urge to invade Berlin twice in my life . Once was when playing Call of Duty: World at War, and the second time was when planning my "authentic" WWII Russian Themed army.

And the mosin was the example because that is currently the rifle I own. I'd rather own a hand gun, but I can't afford to purchase one at the moment. I got the mosin off of a buddy's day. He bought a pair from an old friend, gave them to my buddy who gave one to me.

I've said this before, but I take a certain joy, when watching the war channel and some show on the great Lowenbrau/Smirnoff Bowl comes on, in remarking to the wife "look my ancestors are wailing on your ancestors again."

 SilverMK2 wrote:
On my several trips across to Americaland the only times I ever saw guns were pistols on airport security and a few policemen walking around. Next time I go I will see if I can find a shooting range that will let me have a go

There are a lot more out there. You just don't see them.

reds8n wrote:

Plus of course the figures quoted for the USA must be wwaayy off or otherwise the sheer number of times a firearm saves someone in the USA presented on this board over and over again are completely inaccurate.

Care to expand, using numbers?

 Frazzled wrote:
*And the greatness of British ales.

You should try some Hobgoblin if you can ever get your hands on any. I am not a drinker myself, but pretty much everyone I have spoken to absolutely loves it. They also have a great sense of humour as a company and do lots of themed beers. For example, their beer for January is called "January'S ale"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Seaward wrote:
There are a lot more out there. You just don't see them.

Of that I don't doubt, though I was not exactly gun-watching while I was over there

Additionally, at least the guy in the picture is unlikely to need a gun safe to keep his kids off his gun if he trips over

 SOFDC wrote:

If you didn't have restrictive idiocy like that, you could end up like relatively lax states like Virginia, where it's 69%.

Oh of course, I forgot that someone shot dead is MUCH DEADER than someone stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death. I also forgot that shot to death is also higher on the "Morally objectionable" scale than other methods. Wait...Not it isn't.

Getting out of here is one hell of an incentive to pay attention in class, I will admit.

Many medical studies have shown that being shot is more likely to lead to death than being stabbed.

 AustonT wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Plus of course the figures quoted for the USA must be wwaayy off or otherwise the sheer number of times a firearm saves someone in the USA presented on this board over and over again are completely inaccurate.

Care to expand, using numbers?

It's in the Conn. shooting thread.

Apparently civilian owned guns prevent somewhere from 100,000 to 2.5 million muggings/rapes/home invasions/murders/etc etc per year.

Which if we then factor the crimes that are commited and if the higher end figures are true, is getting near Mega-City One figures.

So I'm just somewhat bemused how guns make a society super safe so there's no crime that you need to worry about and yet are essential as there's so much crime one needs to be able to defend one's self, family, property etc etc , at the same time.

Well, I live in Illinios, so it doesn't get much worse (at least in our country)! I would've moved to Missouri already if I wasn't tied down to IL for personal reasons. But, no, I would never move to a state/country where the gun laws are more strict.

I'm also bemused how the though of additional gun laws will someone be the magic bullet (he pun) and stop future things from happening in a quick and easy fashion.

The US has alsways been subject to crazy events. We're a very fracturous place since the beginning, and our ability to deal with the mentally ill has been destroyed by case law.