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 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
a WW2 Leman russ, sans sponsons...

the Char B1 bis, I hate to say it was actually a bit sleeker than the Leman.

Personally I'd have put the Char B1 BIS down as being the inspiration for the Malcador tank, along with some elements of Mk. V male tanks and other tanks. The hull mounted howitzer, whilst not something only the French Char had, was one of the most commonly recognised features of the tank and as a number of the Malcadors variations have a hull mounted Demolisher, it seems the Char might be the obvious influence. Also the longer hull fits more with the Malcador than the Leman Russ.

 sierra 1247 wrote:
That and also the huge indecisiveness of the Nazi high command, as there were far too many prototype super heavy tanks and such towards the end of the war to feasibly support, thus vital materials were wasted on the prototypes of AFVs that would never see any action (E.100 and Maus) if Germany had any chance of turning the war around in regards to tanks, they should have stuck with the panther and maybe ironed out the problems of the Tiger I.

They wasted resources on those heavy vehicles to begin with. The Panzer IV with the longer gun was almost as effective as the two more famous tanks, more reliable and much cheaper to build. Porsche was reportedly furious that High Command kept ordering the temperamental Panthers and Tigers when he could roll out two or four reliable Panzer IV tanks in place of one with the same resources.

And that's what the Leman Russ should be - something reliable that you can build an endless number of instead of trying to build something better that requires rare materials and precious resources. The crew supply is endless too so it doesn't matter if you sacrifice a few LR and crews to take down a more powerful machine.

Spetulhu wrote:
The crew supply is endless too so it doesn't matter if you sacrifice a few LR and crews to take down a more powerful machine.

see there is the issue, the Russ is not weak. It looks weak as hell and a waste of metal, but game wise and fluff wise is the tank to beat. It is not a stop gap cheap made , poorly designed tank we see.

Spetulhu wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
That and also the huge indecisiveness of the Nazi high command, as there were far too many prototype super heavy tanks and such towards the end of the war to feasibly support, thus vital materials were wasted on the prototypes of AFVs that would never see any action (E.100 and Maus) if Germany had any chance of turning the war around in regards to tanks, they should have stuck with the panther and maybe ironed out the problems of the Tiger I.

They wasted resources on those heavy vehicles to begin with. The Panzer IV with the longer gun was almost as effective as the two more famous tanks, more reliable and much cheaper to build. Porsche was reportedly furious that High Command kept ordering the temperamental Panthers and Tigers when he could roll out two or four reliable Panzer IV tanks in place of one with the same resources.

And that's what the Leman Russ should be - something reliable that you can build an endless number of instead of trying to build something better that requires rare materials and precious resources. The crew supply is endless too so it doesn't matter if you sacrifice a few LR and crews to take down a more powerful machine.

in that respect the Panzer IV was the tank to beat, until T-34/76 came along in huge numbers. and then its older brother T-34/85. Panthers were created for the elite Panzer Divisions like the Grossdeustchland so that they had powerful AFVs that they could deploy in similar numbers to the T-34/76 and still maintain superiority. Except that all went to hell at Kirsk as the Panzer divisions got their asses handed to them.


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 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The crew supply is endless too so it doesn't matter if you sacrifice a few LR and crews to take down a more powerful machine.

see there is the issue, the Russ is not weak. It looks weak as hell and a waste of metal, but game wise and fluff wise is the tank to beat. It is not a stop gap cheap made , poorly designed tank we see.

So basically we want an updated, more realistic tank design for the Leman Russ, without the fat cannon. Basically a predator with a bigger autocannon.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The crew supply is endless too so it doesn't matter if you sacrifice a few LR and crews to take down a more powerful machine.

see there is the issue, the Russ is not weak. It looks weak as hell and a waste of metal, but game wise and fluff wise is the tank to beat. It is not a stop gap cheap made , poorly designed tank we see.

You do realize that in the grim darkeness of the future it doesn't need to make sense or be realistic. I mean the DE fly around with armor that is a bigger risk to themselves then to their opponents, ork tech is too ramshackle to be nearly as good as its rules indicate, chaos stuff is bizarre and their own weapons should eat them as often as not, people run around with chansaws and swords on a battle field where the average rifle has the range of a supersoaker.

Every army has a style that is independent of the rules. If you can't get over that why are you playing? No one forces you to pick IG or SM. Why don't you field Tau, Eldar or Necron?

The average lasgun has an effective range of 120 meters actually, going by Dark Heresy.

You know, I tried to find something worthwhile to say about this, but I can't. Yes, the tank is backwards. Yes, realistically, the stats would have it dead so fast, you'd miss it with a blink of the eye. Yes, you can have more "realistic" tanks, thats why people proxy tanks. In fact, I think I recall someone doing a design blog where they were converting StugIIIs for guard tanks. Now, on the far end of the spectrum, why don't we just go for broke and proxy a Ratte as a Leman Russ. It's only about 4 stories tall, armored from top to bottom, and uses naval guns. Seems to fit the Leman Russ image, no? In short, let's not argue about how it looks like tanks from a century ago. It's been stated that they look like that for a reason, so there really is no reason to complain.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The average lasgun has an effective range of 120 meters actually, going by Dark Heresy.

For a recoil-less laser weapon, that's about as pathetic as a super-soaker, especially when you consider how fast a Space Marine or seething mutant monstrosity could traverse 120 meters (for reference, the current fastest man alive ran 100 meters in 9.58 seconds; a Space Marine could probably do it closer to 5).

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The average lasgun has an effective range of 120 meters actually, going by Dark Heresy.

That is rather pathetic... AK-47 and M-16 have much larger effective range ( 350 metres and 550 meters ).
So the GW actually said that laser beam have less effective range then flying bullet? That is stupid even by their standards... in reality Lasgun range would be well over 500 meters, if not higher.

Durandal wrote:


Every army has a style that is independent of the rules. If you can't get over that why are you playing? No one forces you to pick IG or SM. Why don't you field Tau, Eldar or Necron?

I happen to like the IG, the tanks simply do not fit the IG styling, other then a single unit. The models for the IG tanks also do not fit the game stats or the setting fluff.

With regards to the lasguns range, think not of it as it being the lasguns absolute range & that when it hits 120m it just disappears, think of it as its base range at which the beam does not dissipate/lose any of its power. With a ballistic firearm the bullet will fly at a flat trajectory from the muzzle for a distance depending upon it's mass, the energy that's propelled it from the barrel & the length of the barrel/time to accelerate without anything external affecting it (wind, barometric pressure etc etc). As soon as the mass of the bullet begins to exert itself over the other factors then it will start to drop, which is why firearms have adjustable sights to account for range.

For a lasgun, let's say either the Mars or Necromunda patterns, I'd suggest that at 120m the beam is at it's strongest, when it hits the hardest. After that the power behind the beam starts to dissipate. How fast this happens would depend on the lasgun & its power pack - the Lucius no98 used by the Death Korp fires at a higher power setting and is noted as hitting harder than other lasguns - I'd suggest it has a far longer 'base range' before the power dissipates, whereas a lasgun like the Triplex has adjustable power settings so at longer ranges you can set it to the higher ranges and still hit hard whilst when the target is closer you can lower the power and still have the same effect.

Furthermore I wouldn't put faith utterly in the FFG stats for weapons. It's a game system, remember, and the weapon stats are based around what could be considered to be 'balanced'. With all the many differing marks of lasgun out there in the 41st milennium, I'm sure their ranges will vary as greatly as the number of designs.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:Furthermore I wouldn't put faith utterly in the FFG stats for weapons. It's a game system, remember, and the weapon stats are based around what could be considered to be 'balanced'.

And even more, they are ultimately just one of many opinions on the subject. And on top of that, an opinion that changes depending on which one of FFG's 40k RPGs you are looking at. This is 40k, remember, so there is no such thing as the one accurate source that has it right. Take the aforementioned Triplex lasgun, for example. In the IG Codex it is presented as being special because you can change its power output. In the newest version of Only War, this is a feature that every lasgun and laspistol has. And why? Because the players lobbied for it on the forum.

But also consider that just like with the Tabletop, "maximum range" must not mean that the shot disappears into nothingness. It just means you won't hit anything with an attack, don't bother rolling.
At least this is how I rationalise boltguns and bolt pistols having different ranges in spite of them firing the very same rocket-propelled ammunition - the boltgun simply allows for more precise aim.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
You know, I tried to find something worthwhile to say about this, but I can't. Yes, the tank is backwards. Yes, realistically, the stats would have it dead so fast, you'd miss it with a blink of the eye. Yes, you can have more "realistic" tanks, thats why people proxy tanks. In fact, I think I recall someone doing a design blog where they were converting StugIIIs for guard tanks. Now, on the far end of the spectrum, why don't we just go for broke and proxy a Ratte as a Leman Russ. It's only about 4 stories tall, armored from top to bottom, and uses naval guns. Seems to fit the Leman Russ image, no? In short, let's not argue about how it looks like tanks from a century ago. It's been stated that they look like that for a reason, so there really is no reason to complain.

Come now, the Ratte would have worked if Captain America hadn't destroyed the production facilities and stolen the Tesseract of Odin from Red Skull.

[img]

 Hunterindarkness wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Well, the Guard and the Leman Russ have won war after war over ten thousand years.

which shows us the fluff is wrong or the model is. Its one or the other, I tend to think its the crap model ( which isn't in freaking scale anyhow)

Well if your after a better looking model I did find this pic a while back. Yeah its a chaos predator with a different turret and Leman Russ sponsons, but it give it a lower profile and take away the chaos stuff IMHO you have one cool looking tank. Also as for the name I like the name as it is.

That is not much an improvement as the body styling is the main issue. The name I do not care about one way or the other, but yeah the tank blows.

It is a nice pic though, better then the standard Russ but just not my thing.

They're fat tanks. That's just something you're going to have to deal with. Fat, tall tanks that would be wrecked in any other setting. They are boxes with treads strapped to them. METAL BAWKSES.

I really do not have to deal with it, no.

Then we can keep arguing over a fictional tank in a universe that shouldn't be taken as seriously as it is for the next forty thousand years.

Or ya know..do like a great many people do and simply replace a model that does not fit the fluff. Well Ok it does fit the crap FW fluff which then does not fit the rest of the GW fluff (shock there)or the game stats.

Or we could just have fun with a silly looking tank that doesn't exist.

Leman Russ have tall flat sides.

This offers good protection from anti-tank weapons.

How, you ask?

Because they are fielded in such numbers over such a front that, if one were to be in a position to get a shot on that side armour, one has exposed oneself to thirty or forty other Leman Russ tanks. A large, tall, flat side is only vulnerable to shots from the side. No one is getting to the side of a tank formation that jams ~500 tanks into a two kilometer front.

The Flat sides that are a grant total of 11 MM of riveted steel you mean. No even in groups of 30 or better will the tank we see match the fluff, the model image blows in any and every way you look at it.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Flat sides that are a grant total of 11 MM of riveted steel you mean. No even in groups of 30 or better will the tank we see match the fluff, the model image blows in any and every way you look at it.

Groups of 30 are tiny, tiny groups of Leman Russ. Try 300 or more, in any given locality. You've got a 5km battle front? 500 Leman Russ should about cover it.

Sure, they could be better designed, but the way you're talking they'd blow up the second they roll off the production line. Given the Imperiums penchant for mass deployment and quantity over quality, the things that stand out as critical design flaws to us, with our modern eyes, are only minor issues to them.

Outside of mass crusades I can't think of any BL book I have read including the first 5 HH books that have groups that large in use. #0-40 looks to be a "regiment" I'll double check my IG codex however.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The Flat sides that are a grant total of 11 MM of riveted steel you mean. No even in groups of 30 or better will the tank we see match the fluff, the model image blows in any and every way you look at it.

Boy, those flat sides will give you AV 13 and no less! You will LOVE this flat ides! You will WORSHIP those flat sides! You will pray those flat sides remain flat! That paper thin steel gives you the same protection as the front of an advanced astartes MBT and you will ADORE that! Leman Russ tanks don't need to be in groups of 30, boy, because Predators don't need to be in groups of 30 to survive front attacks! Boy, dem flat sides is better than anything most armies can field!

Yeah. I meant that entirely in jest, it is a really poor design choice in a world of proliferated AT weapons. My guess is that Imperial Guardsmen only get plot armor in their heavy support choices.

Yeah its plot armor for sure. I know how good the Russ is game wise and in fluff. I am simply saying what most folks here already know, that model is not the russ in the game stats or in lore.

The fact that tanks are used at all in the 41st millenium is the bigger paradox here. For all the technology that goes into a modern 20th Century MBT an illiterate peasant can still blow it to hell with a US$25 launcher or a roadside bomb he put together using kitchen chemicals.

Then again, this is a universe where cyclonic torpedoes exist yet people still felt the need to invent a warship that can destroy planets using a different method.

 Engine of War wrote:
Never figured why.

honestly want to rename the tank to something else. but can't think of a good name.

1. Or maybe GW goons are dog fans and not a fans of cats .. mew!
Leman Russ the Primarch and Lion el Jonson are rivals. and they did a duel. referring to the rivalry of canis (Wolf) and felis (Lion) families in nature.
Back in the days of The Great Crusade. During the invasion of a warlord stronghold, Space wolves led by Russ favors the frontal assault head on using the brute force, Dark Angels, under the leadership of Lion el Jonson. prefer a sneak attack of a feline being (meow). bypassed the strongpoints and easily slip through the tough defense into the warlord's HQ and neutralized the enemy command.. yep i'm talkin' about bloodfeud.

2. Or maybe a pet name that is a pun to real life William T. Sherman

Fluffwise the Russ is more akin to the T-34, even though its ingame stats make it more of a 40k IS-2. Its not a brilliant design, its outclassed by other tanks out there but its tough, runs off the smell of an oily rag and can by operated by anyone from the highly trained crack armor regiments to near ogryns who have trouble with the complexities of muskets.

 Kaldor wrote:
Leman Russ have tall flat sides.

This offers good protection from anti-tank weapons.

How, you ask?

Because they are fielded in such numbers over such a front that, if one were to be in a position to get a shot on that side armour, one has exposed oneself to thirty or forty other Leman Russ tanks. A large, tall, flat side is only vulnerable to shots from the side. No one is getting to the side of a tank formation that jams ~500 tanks into a two kilometer front.

Plus, those tanks often have side sponsons and the commander has a copula mounted heavy machinegun or a storm bolter, the Russ can defend itself up close, and as you said, it dosn't often travel alone. if it doesn't have a handful to thousnonds of its fellow tanks, it'll have over ten times as many guard to guard its flanks and rear

I love the look of the Russ tanks, it embodies the imperium so well, its stupid, ugly and bound by half-remembered tradition and superstition, but Throne on Earth help you if you get in it's gunsights because its got a whole load of diddly.

and cries of "it be sucks compared to a real world tank of (insert period here)" just make me laugh, this is the same universe where sentient fungus drive tanks made of rusted scrap with steam rollers strapped to the front. If you don't like it, just convert or scrap build, but unless you keep to the dimensions of the official kit, you'll get called out on modeling for advantage.