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Gotta love it when people try to apply logic to a fictional universe.

Better designs take time to build, something that is not necessarily available to a galaxy constantly fighting for survival. Also, the IoM doesn't care if your survive or not if you're below the rank of captain.

TechMarine1 wrote:
Gotta love it when people try to apply logic to a fictional universe.

Better designs take time to build, something that is not necessarily available to a galaxy constantly fighting for survival. Also, the IoM doesn't care if your survive or not if you're below the rank of captain.

You down using logic..then try to use logic? Anyhow your argument is a poor one, it would tank no longer and most likely fewer resources to build a good effective tank then the junk Russ.

Sloped armour doesnt protect any better against directed-Energy Weapons which are the most common anti-tank weapons in the 40k verse. Imean the only people who use AP shells are the Imperium, Chaos, and the Orks(and the orks don't really count because said AP shell could be a carved rock and it would still explode because the orks thinks it does). The only people who use KE weapons are the tau. Everyone else (including those who listed) use Energy weapons/living bullets.

Armies uses kinetic rounds in 40K, kinda often. Even if they did not, the crap diesign lacking even slopped armored is the whole point. The Russ is a crap design with lasers, its a crap design with more or less any fire arm or anti tank weapon. Its huge, wide, long and is a nice big target.

On the subject of if there are other things than just regiments in the IG i refer you to the basic rule book of 6th edition. Page 193.

Notice that it does mention under the Imperial Guard things such as:

Arm. Command Guard.....5 companies

Elysian Drop Troops....14 Squadrons

Jopall Indentured Sqdns.....17 Battalions

Minervian Tank Legions....3 Legions

Zouvan Skirmishers.....4 Brigades

Take particular note of the Jopall Indentured Squadrons as they are named Squadrons but formed into Battalions.

They did the same thing again on page 231 of the Basic Rule Book for 6th edition for the Force Dispositions at the outset of the Thirteenth Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler.

So, yes, the IG does have more organization than just what is written in the codex. As has been said in many codexes in the past, this particular codex will allow you to form the most commonly seen IG companies and regiments, not the entire organization of the IG.

The Leman Russ is shorter then any MBT out today
Comparison to other MBT

Leman russ
Height: 4.42m
Width: 4.86m
Length: 7.08m

Abrams
Height: 2.44m
Width: 3.66m
Length: 7.93m

Leopard 2
Height: 3m
Width: 3.75m
Length: 9.97m (that’s including the gun but I think it’s closer to the 8m of the Abrams)

And the Leman Russ’s front armor is sloped just at a very crappy angle but then again the look at Abrams it’s boxy as hell because sloped armor is starting to go away because of Composite armor and long-rod Penetrators

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
On the subject of if there are other things than just regiments in the IG i refer you to the basic rule book of 6th edition. Page 193.

Thank ya, I had not picked up the new book yet. However squadron is another name form "platoon" in the codex. Its what they call the support/tank "platoons". Without more data, I think you are just seeing other names for the same base structure. Does the book give sizes for them?


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 Ninjacommando wrote:

And the Leman Russ’s front armor is sloped just at a very crappy angle but then again the look at Abrams it’s boxy as hell because sloped armor is starting to go away because of Composite armor and long-rod Penetrators

Man give it up. You can not compare the two or three. The Russ would be very dead meat by even something like a tiger. its to big, to tall, large flat sides with no suspension. It really is overly antiquated junk. You can not justify it as there is zero in setting logic for it and it does not match fluff, someone simply thought it looked cool.

Again flat sides are starting to become the norm in modern tank design because of composite armor, the only part that is "sloped" is the front because that is most likely area that will be hit because you will be facing the enemy armor and firing on them from 2+ miles away.
The russ is made out of Plasteel&ceramite(which is pretty much used in everything from houses(low grade) to Terminator armor(highest grade)) so futuristic plastic steel mixture + Ceramic layers thrown in there = pretty dang though armor. There is a suspension system just a very gakky one.

Actually sloped armor IS much more effective against directed energy weapons, but yes, modern tank armor has less need of it.

I always thought the Leman Russ was very silly but after buying one (I wanted it for an ork projekt) I appreciated it a bit more.

The lack of ground clearance is alarming but the size of the main weapon compared to the turret and the rest of the vehicle is my main complaint. It is kinda funny that it can go toe to toe with a Hammerhead, for instance. Visually it shouldn't have any chance. I guess you have to suspend belief or just argue that it's actually waaaaaay more sophisticated than it looks!

As I said man, the Russ is a bad design any how you look at it. Its simply primitive. You can not compare it to changes in Modern designs as it includes none. You are really just trying to make excuses that do not fit. The Russ is a WWI or at best intrea war era design. It has no suspension, it has high tracks, high sides and is twice the height of a modern tank. It uses riveted freaking armor, not ultra modern anything.

You can make the Russ out of anything you like, that will not change the flawed and more or less useless design man. The image of the Russ was design for cool, its a Mki or Mk iv with a turret. No one at GW seems to know anything about tanks, FW either to be honest. Which is fine, unless you try to ya know write tank fluff and details as if you did.


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 amanita wrote:
It is kinda funny that it can go toe to toe with a Hammerhead, for instance. Visually it shouldn't have any chance. I guess you have to suspend belief or just argue that it's actually waaaaaay more sophisticated than it looks!

Yes, the model and image are incorrect or the fluff and stats are. As they have used this thing for ages and its a STC design, I bet its the image that are wrong.


You are also correct on ground clearance and the tanks scale, bad design or not is way off. No way you get 6 men and 40 shells+ side armaments ammo in that thing. It should prob be about super tank scale on the able at lest.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
The Leman Russ is shorter then any MBT out today
Comparison to other MBT

Leman russ
Height: 4.42m
Width: 4.86m
Length: 7.08m

Abrams
Height: 2.44m
Width: 3.66m
Length: 7.93m

Leopard 2
Height: 3m
Width: 3.75m
Length: 9.97m (that’s including the gun but I think it’s closer to the 8m of the Abrams)

And the Leman Russ’s front armor is sloped just at a very crappy angle but then again the look at Abrams it’s boxy as hell because sloped armor is starting to go away because of Composite armor and long-rod Penetrators

1. Does Leman Russ width measured without sponson upgrade?
2. So it appears that Leman Russ is designed to maximize firepower into its relatively small hull size, then warfare in the 41st millenium is much different to ones in our days i think. bah! today Footsloggers still fear tanks and likely to appreciate any armored supports provided by their high command.
3. But one of FW books has a cutaway pictures of Russ and Chimera with spring-mounted suspension system. one of GW artwork displays Chimera with raised roadwheels.

I always pictured the Russ like todays BMPs in the middle east. (Not Russia) They are old.... They are out dated.... they are reliable... They are simple and easily mass produced on the cheap.



IDK kind of like the AK-47. It goes toe to toe with the tricked out kitted out M-4 yet it can be barried in mud and used by any one with minimal to no training.

The Russ to me adds to the expendability of guardsmen, You guys arnt worht the R&D or $ to find you better stuff

I think it's more about the technology culture.
If the guys building tanks see machines as gods, then suggesting that something is wrong with the design of a machine is saying that their is something wrong with god.

The fluff of 40K is yesterday was awesome, today sucks, tomorrow is worse. Anything old must be better than anything new. Therefor anything from the golden-age must be the better than trying to anything new. With so much old tech floating around, making something new is also akin to thinking you're better than the machine god.

The basic russ gets the job done. It's apparently easy to make and cheap, and several factories are set up to be turning them out. It's just easier to keep making the same old tank then refitting several huge factories.

-Matt

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
As I said man, the Russ is a bad design any how you look at it. Its simply primitive. You can not compare it to changes in Modern designs as it includes none. You are really just trying to make excuses that do not fit. The Russ is a WWI or at best intrea war era design. It has no suspension, it has high tracks, high sides and is twice the height of a modern tank. It uses riveted freaking armor, not ultra modern anything.

You can make the Russ out of anything you like, that will not change the flawed and more or less useless design man. The image of the Russ was design for cool, its a Mki or Mk iv with a turret. No one at GW seems to know anything about tanks, FW either to be honest. Which is fine, unless you try to ya know write tank fluff and details as if you did.


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 amanita wrote:
It is kinda funny that it can go toe to toe with a Hammerhead, for instance. Visually it shouldn't have any chance. I guess you have to suspend belief or just argue that it's actually waaaaaay more sophisticated than it looks!

Yes, the model and image are incorrect or the fluff and stats are. As they have used this thing for ages and its a STC design, I bet its the image that are wrong.


You are also correct on ground clearance and the tanks scale, bad design or not is way off. No way you get 6 men and 40 shells+ side armaments ammo in that thing. It should prob be about super tank scale on the able at lest.

\

I don't understand why your so butt hurt over the fact that the Russ is a bad design... I remember you starting a few threads like this awile ago.. I understand that you didn't start this so you really shouldn't carry on the tread. Someone already answered the OP on page 3...this is page 9, give it up.

sirlotsofpain wrote:
I always pictured the Russ like todays BMPs in the middle east. (Not Russia) They are old.... They are out dated.... they are reliable... They are simple and easily mass produced on the cheap.



IDK kind of like the AK-47. It goes toe to toe with the tricked out kitted out M-4 yet it can be barried in mud and used by any one with minimal to no training.

The Russ to me adds to the expendability of guardsmen, You guys arnt worht the R&D or $ to find you better stuff

BMP serves Chimera function, Leman Russ should be either Patton or T55, MBTs that many nations still use.
Saying that Admech never updates anything is sorely wrong. They still build Leman Russ since the days of Primarches, if they don't have RnD, can you explain why;
1. Macharius Heavy tank came to being? the design doesn't come from any existing STC printouts Admech had been collected so far. instead it has been crafted ground up by someone in Admech.
2. Kreigsche uses tankettes and Ragnarok heavy tanks in the 500 years civil war? some Death Korps still uses one too! only tankette (Siegfred) comes from an STC printouts Discovered by Arkhan Land. Ragnaroks were entirely new designs?
3. And even some vostroyans do use Ragnaroks instead of Russ?
4. Mars Alpha pattern Leman Russ came to being? this tank maintains some aesthetics of Russ as you know it but update others.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
As I said man, the Russ is a bad design any how you look at it. Its simply primitive. You can not compare it to changes in Modern designs as it includes none. You are really just trying to make excuses that do not fit. The Russ is a WWI or at best intrea war era design. It has no suspension, it has high tracks, high sides and is twice the height of a modern tank. It uses riveted freaking armor, not ultra modern anything.

I would love to add that really the only justification for riveted freaking armor may be that fancy future steel cant be wielded due to its specific property. All in all though I can let go the lack of sloped armor but the russ has no business being as tall as it is and should get stuck on every single obstacle it ever faces.

Speaking of armor Im surprised they don’t add RPG cages against missiles as that seems to be the main enemy except against other imperial equipment. (It’s slit armor that forces RPG to detonate in front of the main armor instead of surface to prevent amour penetration.) (And if they did I haven’t seen it yet so my bad)

 kinratha wrote:

I don't understand why your so butt hurt over the fact that the Russ is a bad design... I remember you starting a few threads like this awile ago.. I understand that you didn't start this so you really shouldn't carry on the tread. Someone already answered the OP on page 3...this is page 9, give it up.

Somethings people just dislike about a setting man, for me its the stupid outdated and plan archaic and ineffective 40k IG tanks.It started here because someone asked me about it. If you quote someone and discuss things they have said, ya have to expect they will respond man. Its not like I am the only one keeping this going. The thread has drifted from the OP's topic which is finished anyhow, There really is no need to be snarky about it, if you do not wish to join the discussion,no one is making you do so man.


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 Desubot wrote:


I would love to add that really the only justification for riveted freaking armor may be that fancy future steel cant be wielded due to its specific property. All in all though I can let go the lack of sloped armor but the russ has no business being as tall as it is and should get stuck on every single obstacle it ever faces.

You can not in setting justify the Rivets, its a look someone with zero understanding of the subject though looked cool. People keep trying to justify an in setting reason for something that has nothing to really do with the setting, the Russ if I recall dates back to the silly days of 40k. The rest of the setting moved out of super silly, the Russ did not.


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HawaiiMatt wrote:

The fluff of 40K is yesterday was awesome, today sucks, tomorrow is worse. Anything old must be better than anything new. Therefor anything from the golden-age must be the better than trying to anything new. With so much old tech floating around, making something new is also akin to thinking you're better than the machine god.

The basic russ gets the job done. It's apparently easy to make and cheap, and several factories are set up to be turning them out. It's just easier to keep making the same old tank then refitting several huge factories.

-Matt

Yes that is indeed the Fluff, but the image does not match that fluff. The Russ we see is not an STC design, its a design from the first era of tanks. And really it can not get the job done it does in fluff.


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sirlotsofpain wrote:
I always pictured the Russ like todays BMPs in the middle east. (Not Russia) They are old.... They are out dated.... they are reliable... They are simple and easily mass produced on the cheap.

The BMP's however unlike the Russ are well designed and effective at what they are meant to do.Also they are APC's not Tanks.

Here's the REAL story behind the Russ...

Those aren't rivets: most are miniature explosive reactive armor modules designed to protect the solid joints of the armor (the rest being a hybridized sheer thickening liquid), while others are part of the vehicle's passive sensor array.

That isn't an inadequate suspension: the spinning tread creates a co-static inverse gravitic field as the tank glides mere millimeters above the terrain.

That's not an over-sized barrel: the munition starts out as a 75mm telescoping round but during its flight down the barrel an expanding sabot and stabilizing wings deploy for hypervelocity travel to the target.

That's probably not even a sword in the tank commander's hand! It could be a multi-band radio relay or a range finding reflector grid!

Um…or not.

Ya know this makes me think..has anyone seen a Russ correctly scaled? I mean I dislike the thing, but it would be interesting at lest to see it correctly scaled.

Modelwise i've never seen a "true scale" russ.

I once saw a picture of a Leman Russ at its full size with a soldier next to it. to say it dwarfed him was an understatment. IM sure with some hunting that picture coudl be found.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
You can not in setting justify the Rivets, its a look someone with zero understanding of the subject though looked cool. People keep trying to justify an in setting reason for something that has nothing to really do with the setting, the Russ if I recall dates back to the silly days of 40k. The rest of the setting moved out of super silly, the Russ did not.

Oh really? They're molecular bonding rivets, providing a seal stronger than welding or any other method of construction.

Further, the last guy to suggest modifying the production line machines to facilitate welding instead of riveting was executed by the Adeptus Mechanicus for a violation of the treaties of Mars.

Uh huh...I have a bridge I would like to sell you if you buy that BS

why excactly are we complaining about a fictional tank in a fictional universe that even has a fungus race that builds super weapons out of scrap?

anyway as far as i understand IG in fluff usually land on planets and dig in, then it would make sense to have WWI era styled tracks on it, you know to pass those pesty trenches.

btw the leman russ looks more of a mix between the churchill mk I hull and the arl 44 turret to me atleast

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Uh huh...I have a bridge I would like to sell you if you buy that BS

It's the 41st millennium. The technologically repressed, religiously fanatical, feudalism-in-space Imperium of Man. Both molecular bonding studs and declarations of heresy for technological improvement have precedents in the background.

Thats just babble trying to justify the rule of cool rivets and you know that.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Thats just babble trying to justify the rule of cool rivets and you know that.

It's established background lore. If you don't like it, that's fine, but it's legitimate background.

I often dislike 40k background when its over the top stupid. This is one of those cases, twisting fluff to try and justify something not based on fluff. GW are good at that. You know damned well what those rivets on the russ are. If the admech are bonding items like rivets then they are stupider then fluff makes them out ( which is pretty stupid)

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I often dislike 40k background when its over the top stupid. This is one of those cases, twisting fluff to try and justify something not based on fluff. GW are good at that. You know damned well what those rivets on the russ are. If the admech are bonding items like rivets then they are stupider then fluff makes them out ( which is pretty stupid)

The whole point of the Imperium of Man as a whole, and the Imperial Guard in particular, is to appear as a backwards society, mired in technological repression and religious extremism. They don't use the best tactics, they don't innovate or improvise, they don't constantly improve their technology or vehicles. If anything, they are going in reverse, with technology being lost and forgotten instead of improved and created. That's what the Imperium of Man is. And the backwards and inefficient looking vehicles are part of that.

Then it's all blended in with a whole bunch of handwavium technology to make it sound cool and in-universe plausible. This includes using outrageous explanations like molecular bonding studs instead of rivets. Even if they were regular rivets, the technological repression rampant in the Imperium would not allow for improving the manufacturing process. It is, by now, a holy ceremony.

If that really grinds your gears, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe 40K isn't your thing.

So..I can not like 40k because I find the IG tanks to be stupid, far to archaic and not fitting with the rest of the army? You might be a bit to sensitive man.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
So..I can not like 40k because I find the IG tanks to be stupid, far to archaic and not fitting with the rest of the army?

Well, the short version is yes, I guess. The IG aren't anything even close to resembling a modern military, and there is literally no such thing as 'too archaic'. The older, the better. They still use wheeled artillery pushed along like Napoleonic cannons, dress like soldiers from the Zulu wars, employ mass bayonet charges against defended positions, etc.

If you want an IG, and an Imperium, that makes sense then the short answer is that you've come to the wrong shop. I'm not going to tell you to pack up your war-dollies, but it seems the thing that upsets you most is the integral themes of the setting. It seems self defeating to try and enjoy it when it's not something you like. It'd be like hating magic and laser swords, but trying to enjoy Star Wars.