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2012/12/21 08:26:24
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
Due to a request by one of the readers, I got in a game today against Davis' Space Marines with Tau allies. Davis (aka Kingsley here on dakka) is a good space marine player and a seasoned tournament veteran. I have seen him at several tournaments (I wasn't playing, just observing). I've actually played against his space marines in a mini-1K tournament before as well (I won).
Kingsley may be going to the BAO as well. Thus, we got in a practice BAO game. In this game, my opponent recently acquired a small contingent of Tau and decided to run them as allies instead of his standard marine list.
Mission:Bay Area Open Scenario #3 - The Relic (4pts) & Big Guns Never Tire (3pts)
The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #3, The Relic is worth 4-points and Big Guns Never Tire is worth 3-points. There are 4 objectives for Big Guns.
I feel like it's not a question of underrated or not, but just that this specific army is not well adapted to deal with multiple MC with 6-4 wounds each.
Tyranids will win this one, unless you have really bad luck on grounding tests and your flyrants get shot down in the first turns.
2012/12/21 09:47:45
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
I can't see the marines really doing a lot. Too many points are tied up in models geared towards fighting other armies. All of that heavy support, especially the broadsides, are ultimately only going to be dealing a single wound per shot per turn against your big bugs, and your small bugs are meant to die.
The firewarriors (without leaders) will run too easily after a couple of casualties, although with some good angles they could get some early wounds on your big bugs. And the usual tau tactic of avoiding CC won't be easy with all those termagants (same for the broadsides, especially without shield drones).
The stormtalons could be very annoying, but they can't win a game on their own. The vindicators could also lay down some hurt, but I can't see them getting many shots off before they get assaulted
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 09:49:52
2000 pts
Compel wrote:
Because in a universe where the basic weapon is a rocket propelled grenade machine gun, with gigantic battletanks, 5 kilometer long spaceships, huge robots and power armoured supersoldiers, the most powerful guy you want to field on a battlefield is a bloke in a pointy hat carrying a stick.
2012/12/21 10:10:19
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
This will actually be one of my first few games against Tyranids in 6th edition. In the past, I have done very well, but the Tyranids I fought earlier were less than optimal. jy2's list is much more powerful and I am definitely more concerned with what he brings to the table than some of my previous opponents in this edition. In particular, I think his Flyrants can do a lot of damage to me.
On the other hand, I do have one advantage that many potential opponents at the Bay Area Open might not-- I am aware of jy2's record with Tyranids and have read many of his battle reports here on DakkaDakka. The Game Kastle is actually an interesting store in that we have a pretty heavy Tyranid presence relative to many locations. In particular, jy2 and DakkaDakka moderator Janthkin-- both excellent Nid players-- frequent the Kastle. As a result, I'm familiar with a lot of what the Tyranids have to offer and definitely consider them a strong force. I think Tyranids are often underestimated and I will not make that mistake here!
Overall though, I think I am at a disadvantage in this matchup, as my army is not ideal for taking out Monstrous Creatures, with a limited number of high Strength/low AP shots. Typically I make up for this with Strength 10 and AP 1/2, but against Monstrous Creatures with toughness 6, many wounds, and 3+ saves, this is inefficient-- I would be better-served with more missiles instead. For this reason I'm going to generate Biomancy powers with my Librarian in the hopes of getting Enfeeble. If I can Enfeeble an enemy Monstrous Creature or Hive Guard squad and bring it down to toughness 5, it will become highly vulnerable to strength 10 attacks from my Vindicators and Broadsides.
Overall, I should definitely be able to put up a fight! My target priority will be to go for Monstrous Creatures early, then attempt to mop up the smaller bugs in the later turns of the game. At the very least, I hope to do better than the last challenger to jy2's Tyranids did!
We'll see how I do...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/21 10:13:49
2012/12/21 16:58:38
Subject: Re:1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
Tyranids: (by Jy2)
At first glance, Kingsley's list doesn't really look like it's got the tools to deal with all my big bugs, especially against 2 flying tyrants. He has rather a limited number of high-strength low-AP weaponry and really doesn't have the volume of fire that some of the other armies I've played against has. And he's using allies that I believe are a relatively new addition to his army. I'm not sure how that synergy will work. And finally, he's running dual vindicators, which isn't as scary to my army as some other units. After all, the most they can do is either shoot at some of my cheap chaff units or put 1W on my big guys.
However, there are a few characteristics of his army that will make it an interesting battle to me:
1. Stormtalons. For some reason, I haven't done well against them in all my games, especially when my opponent brings a pair. I can take down vendettas and heldrakes, but when it comes down to those AV11 2HP flyers, those nuts are hard to crack!
2. Broadsides in bastions. My first though was to Enfeeble his broadsides and gun them down with insta-death devourers, but if he puts them in the bastions, they are going to be nigh unkillable! It just takes up too many resources trying to destroy the bastion, resources I'd rather put against the rest of his army. I'm just going to have to endure them and take it up the......
3. S5-shooting. Actually with the 24 fire warriors, the quad-guns and his jumping bean missiles, my opponent has got quite a volume-of-S5+ shooting. That may play a role in killing my monsters. Volume of S4 shooting I'm not too concerned about. Volume of s5 shooting and I start to sweat a little. It's when I go up against volume of S6 shooting (i.e. eldar) that I start to get a little worried.
4. Whirlwind. That's actually a threat to my biovores and infantry-killing power. Now the shoes is on the other foot. It is normally my opponent who has to worry about barrages. Now I have to worry about them.
Overall, I think this matchup favors my bugs....unless my opponent does something stupid like steal the initiative and shoot down my flyrants on Turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/21 16:59:18
The sm list design seems to try and bust open transports with broadsides and then drop large blasts on them. I imagine the bastion is there to bunker a couple of squads, and block Los to others. The concept is ok, but those tacticals are pretty inefficient. I think I would fear this list if the bastion were a fortress instead, as that protects more units, adds another large blast, and blocks more Los. The list concept is a nice change, I'll give it that.
Here is how I see it playing out. Since the sm flyers are off the table, jy2 will fly his 2 mcs right up to the bastion on turn 1. This puts him in position to assault and destroy the entire house of cards on turn 2 as even if they get grounded there is no counter assault element. The rest of the bugs should run up as fast as possible with hive guard crippling the mobility. While enfeebled the vindicator will become scary, but bad luck will plague the sm, he will be going second and not roll that power.
With the bastion dead on turn 2, gargoyles will be shot to pieces as a consolation prize before the waves of gants roll in. Doom will lock down a flank thanks to no real instant death attacks to throw at him, and by turn 3 everything not dead will be locked in combat.
All in all a grim fate. The flyers, arriving too late to salvage the troops on the ground, do kill flyrants, but are unable to prevent mission loss.
Anyhoo, that's what I predict if jy2 goes for the throat. His bat reps do see him tend to play a bit defensive for me, which I think here would be a big mistake. The sm chance at victory will be in going first, getting enfeeble, and facing a defensive jy2.
2012/12/22 14:43:44
Subject: Re:1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
There are 2 Big Gun objectives in my deployment zone and 2 in my opponent's.
Tyranid psychic powers. All Biomancy except for the Doom, who is taking Telepathy.
Flyrant #1 (Warlord, top): Enfeeble, Hemorrhage
Flyrant #2: Endurance, Life Leech
Tervigons #1 (Claws): Enfeeble, Life Leech, Warp Speed
Tervigons #2: Enfeeble, Endurance, Life Leech
Doom: Psychic Shriek
Iron Arm would have basically made my big guys almost impervious to small arms fire. That was the power I wanted.
Librarian (Warlord): Iron Arm, Warp Speed
Warlord traits:
Tyranids: not very useful
Space Marines: librarian is scoring
Tyranid deployment, from both player's perspectives. Doom in reserves.
Biovores, who are scoring in this game, and gants hold the rear objective.
And while my opponent is deploying, I go check out some of the other games going on at our LGS tonight.
We have Grey Therion's lego knights versus vanilla marines.
Space marines vs space marines/IG?
Lastly, Janthkin brought out his necrons vs space marines.
Wow, night of the space marines. Everyone's bringing them tonight.
Ok, now back to the featured table.
Kingsley finally deploys his forces. My biovores/hive guards make him have to think for a while on how to deploy his forces.
His broadsides are in the bastion. Here's a little trick that's going to be quite annoying (only from the Tau). On his turn, his Shas'el will jump onto the bastion's battlements to man the quad-gun. Then after firing, he would jump back down behind the bastion so that I can't shoot at him.
I give him the tip that his vehicles need to be touching the terrain that is obscuring them in order to actually get cover against my hive guards. You know, kind of like his broadside's SMS missiles.
Another perspective of SM/Tau deployment.
My opponent then proceeds to steal the initiative from me....
Ok, this could potentially hurt. The last time my tyranids had their initiative stolen (against Chaos Space Marines) was also the first and only time that I've lost with my bugs.
The only thing I've got going this time is that my opponent does not have as much AP1/2 guns as the CSM army I faced with 6 oblits and units of dual-plasma plague marines. Also, I believe his broadsides do not have LOS to my flyrants as I deployed them in such a way to be outside of his broadsides' LOS.
Space marines move. Shas'el would jump onto the bastion and later in the assault phase, jump back behind it. Librarian (warlord) is attached to a unit of fire warriors.
Demolishers are out of range to fire at any of my units.
He doesn't need his big guns to deal with my flyrant. He just fires 1 unit of fire warriors and his shas'el with quad-guns at him and I fail 4 out of 5 saves.
In one shot, he gets both First Blood and Slay the Warlord.
The rest of his shooting - the broadsides and whirlwind - he puts 1W on my tervigon and kill 1 gant and 1 gargoyle.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
Tyranids cast their psychic powers. Tervigon enfeebles his librarian's unit.
Right tervigon (with crushing claws) spawn 13 gants and run out.
Bugs advance. Flyrant swoops.
Forget the bastion. I could care less about his broadsides. I am going for his troops (and Warlord). I am also going after the Relic, which my spawned gants pick up.
I focus on his librarian's unit with 1 unit of biovores, the flyrant, gargoyles, gants and tervigon cluster spines. I wipe out 11 warriors. Had my Warlord survived, I would have definitely wiped out the unit and librarian and should have gotten First Blood and Warlord. Sigh....
I fire my biovores at his other unit of warriors and kill 5.
He would pass both morale tests.
Space Marines 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Bugs catch a little bit of a break as both stormtalons fail to come in from reserves.
His Warlord fails to cast a psychic power and perils. Space marines shuffles around.
In shooting, he wipes out my newly-spawned gants. He also kills 5 gargoyles (from scattering blasts) and puts 1W on each of my tervigons.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
The boss-man comes in.
I am going to tear his librarian a new one.
The rest of my army spreads out, covering the objectives and making sure to stay within synapse of my big guys. Also, the gant with the Relic, which my opponent failed to kill last turn, moves behind the LOS blocking terrain.
Both his fire warriors and his librarian's unit pass their 3D6LD test against the Doom's Spirit Leech. His librarian also denies Psychic Shriek from the Doom. I then focus my entire army on his Warlord's unit but for the life of me, can't seem to kill him as I wipe out all but him and 1 marine.
Biovore scatter also kills 2 fire warriors and hive guards explode a rhino, killing 1 marine.
Every single unit passes Morale and Pinning.
Sometimes, I really don't understand how necrons can fail 3 LD10 tests against me but fire warriors and kroots are super-unbreakable when I force them to take LD tests.
Oh wait, librarian's unit actually fails morale and runs off.
Space Marines 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Both talons come in. Librarian regroups and they move into the rhino for some protection. Marines shuffle around.
He focuses practically his entire army onto my flyrant with FNP and brings it down.
Here's a pro-tip. When swooping your flying monstrous creature (FMC), always try to end its movement either in area terrain or impassable terrain. In area terrain, they will get cover without having to jink. In impassable terrain, even if they were to get grounded, you can't assault them with an assault-oriented army.
He then fires his whirlwind at my Relic gant and his demolishers at my biovores. Both scatter and hit the rear gant squads, killing 2 and 1 respectively.
He also kills 3 gargoyles and puts 3W on the Doom (1W remaining) but fails to insta-kill it with both his broadsides and vindicator (in case you're wondering, he fired his insta-killing guns first).
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
Bugs move. Gants hand off the Relic to the tervigon, who is behind the LOS-blocking terrain with FNP on.
BTW, I would forget about It Will Not Die for the entire game.
The rest of my bugs move.
The Doom's Spirit Leech kills 3 fire warriors, who finally fail morale. They fall back and would run off the table by Turn 5.
Hive guards blow up the rhino. The explosion kills the lone fire warrior hiding behind it. Tyranid shooting kills 1 marine from each unit....as well as 1 gargoyle.
Again, his librarian denies Psychic Shriek from the Doom and foils my 3rd attempt to assassinate his Warlord. It's ironic that my flyrants are dropping like flies and yet his librarian survives 3 turns of my entire army shooting at him.
No assault, as his librarian, who is scoring, is on the objective which halves my charge distance, thus causing my tervigon to fail its charge.
Space Marines 4
Spoiler:
Now with the flyrants gone, his stormtalons can attack with impunity. They are going after, well, they've got a number of targets that they can go after.
Tact squad and librarian joins forces. Vindicator scoots back.
What his broadsides fail to do, his vindicator succeeds and that is to insta-kill the Doom. Space marine shooting also takes out another 5 gargoyles.
Talons then fire at my tervigons (and with only their assault cannons!) and for the life of me, I can't make a save. Left tervigon is down to 3W remaining and right tervigon down to just 1W left.
Although I have the advantage currently, it is now danger time for my bugs. I've got 1 tervigon who is about to croak and another who is half-dead. Also, I don't have anything that can really deal with his talons.
Tyranids 4
Spoiler:
Left tervigon spawn gants who go after his Warlord's unit.
The combined shooting of the biovores (risky shots considering how many gribblies I had nearby) and the termagants wipe out the combat squad and his Warlord (finally!).
Know what's missing here? That's right....his vindicator which my hive guards blew up.
My other unit of hive guards fire at his stormtalon but fails to hit.
Space Marines 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5. This would be the last game turn as the store is closing. Besides, we've already went over the time limit for the BAO.
Right now, my opponent can still take the game. He has a slim chance. If he can deny me the Relic, we will tie on Big Guns. However, he would win via First Blood. But in order to do that, he needs for a lot of things to happen:
- He needs to kill both tervigons.
- He needs to claim the big gun objective with his vindicator, who then needs to survive the shooting of my hive guards next turn.
- He needs to kill my contesting gargoyle.
- He needs to kills my biovores, who are also scoring and can pick up the Relic.
- He needs for me to fail some Instinctive Behaviour tests, assuming my tervigons are dead.
Whirlwind makes a play for the objective but immobilizes itself on terrain! Marines then jump down from the battlements to claim the objective in case my hive guards blow away his scoring whirlwind. 2 of them dies in the fall but they do manage to pass morale.
Stormtalons then go into hover mode and turn around.
He shoots down my other near-death tervigon. Heavy bolters from the bastion shoot down the lone contesting gargoyle and the vindicator moves flat-out to make it to the objective.
He then shoots down the tervigon with 3W and FNP as well!!! His death causes 9 gants to die as well. Broadsides manage to insta-kill only 1 biovore.
So far, the stars are aligning for marines. Though for them to align perfectly, he needed to kill my unit of 2 biovores.
Tyranids 5
Spoiler:
My synapse is gone. For him to win (actually he can't win at this point because he failed to kill my biovores), I would need to fail a few Instinctive Behaviour tests.
I make most of them including the the gants and biovores who are near the Relic. I also pass IB for 1 of my hive guards so that I can shoot at either his vindicator or his whirlwind.
But that is moot, all I need do is to walk on the Relic to pick it up and so we end it here.
He's got both of his Big Gun objectives.
I've got both of mine also.
However, I take Big Guns because I get 1VP for killing his vindicator. I also take the Relic because I can just walk right onto it. We both have Warlord. He's also got First Blood. I didn't check for Linebreaker.
Space Marines: (by Kingsley)
This game was extremely fun and close. At the end of the game, both armies had taken quite severe damage. Had we had time to continue into later turns, I think I might have had a chance of pulling things out, what with the Synapse creatures dead, but it would have been a scrape either way-- after all, jy2 would have had a pretty good chance of destroying my Whirlwind or Vindicator with his Hive Guard on the bottom of turn 5.
That said, I was lucky that it became such a close battle in the first place. I actually won the initial roll to determine priority, but ceded first turn to jy2. This was a big mistake-- although this approach is often advantageous in objective missions, in this case I want to be able to get as much shooting on the Hive Tyrants as possible. Luckily for me, successfully Seizing the Initiative (combined with some unlucky armor saves for jy2) mitigated this error and allowed me to open up strong and get back in the game.
All in all this was a great game and I definitely learned a lot about the Tyranids. I also met my initial objective of living longer than the Grey Knights did last week!
Tyranids: (by Jy2)
To be honest, I didn't think that space marines would put up such a fight. Not that I was under-estimating them, but I think that in order for them to beat my bugs, the majority of the following needs to happen:
1. My opponent can't really afford to make any mistakes. He made 2, but they were relatively minor. The first was for him to go second. However, stealing the initiative and catching my bugs with their pants down more than made up for that. The second was the placement of the bastion and broadsides. I took advantage of that by maneuvering my big bugs (and VIP units) outside of his broadsides LOS, thus denying them any really useful targets.
2. I needed to make some mistakes. In this game, I don't really feel like I really made any mistakes.
3. Dice being favorable to him. We both had our share of good and bad dice. His good dice included stealing the initiative, passing his LD tests when it counted (against the Doom and morale for his fire warriors for the most part), denying my Psychic Shriek twice, his good rolling to hit and wound my monstrous creatures and his Warlord making a lot of saves and surviving 3 turns of heavy fire from my army. His bad dice included his reserve rolls for his stormtalons on Turn 2 and his inability to kill my little guys with his whirlwind, vindicators and broadsides (trying to kill my biovores).
My bad dice included failing so many saves and FNP on my monstrous creatures against his somewhat limited shooting (without broadsides!), my poor shooting against his infantry (I should have easily been able to wipe out those fire warriors and space marines with my volume-of-fire) and probably running out of gants with one of my tervigons on Turn 1. My good dice? Passing the important Instinctive Behaviour tests at the end.
Overall, I felt that my opponent had slightly more favorable dice than me. Stealing the initiative was just huge and downing my TMC's gave him a fighting chance. Otherwise, it probably would have been an even more lop-sided victory rather than such a close battle for my bugs.
One more factor played into my favor and that was the Relic. I was advancing. My opponent wasn't. I had an inherent advantage all along in this mission. He couldn't even make a play for my objectives. Rather, he had to rely on taking out my synapse (which was no small feat) and pray that my troops run off of the objectives. I, on the other hand, was constantly advancing and was really putting the pressure on him with my flyrants and the Doom. This is a strategy which I like to coin as Positional Dominance. I had an inherent advantage the entire game because I was constantly pushing forwards and making a play for the objectives whereas he was not. Thus, even when I lost my important bugs (my synapse), I was already on the objectives and just needed to hold them. In other words, I was playing to win while he was playing not to lose (insofar as playing the missions).
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/12/23 05:54:24
He should have put most of his fire warriors under that roof so that the barrage weapons couldn't hit them. Could have protected one squad that way at least. Did he at least attach a librarian to one of them?
Red Corsair wrote: He should have put most of his fire warriors under that roof so that the barrage weapons couldn't hit them. Could have protected one squad that way at least. Did he at least attach a librarian to one of them?
It was out of his deployment zone. He was moving towards it but didn't want to risk rolling for difficult terrain and falling short so he just moved towards the edge of it.
His other squad does make it there on his Turn 2.
Yeah, his librarian was attached to the squad that I focused-fire at. Only 1 survived who then went on to hide.
One point of order-- if I recall correctly, on turn 2 my Librarian and the one remaining Tactical Marine from his squad did in fact get Pinned from one of the Biovore barrages, but I used Combat Tactics to run away at the end of the phase in order to break Pinning.
2012/12/22 19:54:51
Subject: Re:1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
Red Corsair wrote: Ah ok, thanks! Interesting read so far. I think his Storm Talons failing to arrive might have sealed it though.
Quite possibly. Those stormtalons are the bane of my tyranids!
Kingsley wrote: One point of order-- if I recall correctly, on turn 2 my Librarian and the one remaining Tactical Marine from his squad did in fact get Pinned from one of the Biovore barrages, but I used Combat Tactics to run away at the end of the phase in order to break Pinning.
Thanks for the game, Davis. This was one of my closest games for my bugs so far. Appears that marines, just like bugs, have still got a lot of juice left in their tank.
Was that what happened? BTW, after our game, I've played 2 other games since at Frontline Gaming so I might have gotten some of the details mixed up. But at least the pictures never lie.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DevianID wrote: The sm list design seems to try and bust open transports with broadsides and then drop large blasts on them. I imagine the bastion is there to bunker a couple of squads, and block Los to others. The concept is ok, but those tacticals are pretty inefficient. I think I would fear this list if the bastion were a fortress instead, as that protects more units, adds another large blast, and blocks more Los. The list concept is a nice change, I'll give it that.
Here is how I see it playing out. Since the sm flyers are off the table, jy2 will fly his 2 mcs right up to the bastion on turn 1. This puts him in position to assault and destroy the entire house of cards on turn 2 as even if they get grounded there is no counter assault element. The rest of the bugs should run up as fast as possible with hive guard crippling the mobility. While enfeebled the vindicator will become scary, but bad luck will plague the sm, he will be going second and not roll that power.
With the bastion dead on turn 2, gargoyles will be shot to pieces as a consolation prize before the waves of gants roll in. Doom will lock down a flank thanks to no real instant death attacks to throw at him, and by turn 3 everything not dead will be locked in combat.
All in all a grim fate. The flyers, arriving too late to salvage the troops on the ground, do kill flyrants, but are unable to prevent mission loss.
Anyhoo, that's what I predict if jy2 goes for the throat. His bat reps do see him tend to play a bit defensive for me, which I think here would be a big mistake. The sm chance at victory will be in going first, getting enfeeble, and facing a defensive jy2.
I actually tend to kill things which are easier to kill. The broadsides in bastion would just take too much "resources" to kill so I will actually be ignoring them. Instead, I will deny them good targets to shoot at.
My initial plan, had I went first, was to focus both flyrants and the rest of my armies into killing his 2 units of fire warriors out in the open and especially the unit with his Warlord. Either that or to kill off his Whirlwind with devourers.
And in this case, I don't really need to play that aggressively. I just need to pick up the Relic and hand it to my tervigons and dare him to come after it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/22 20:02:42
This game was extremely fun and close. At the end of the game, both armies had taken quite severe damage. Had we had time to continue into later turns, I think I might have had a chance of pulling things out, what with the Synapse creatures dead, but it would have been a scrape either way-- after all, jy2 would have had a pretty good chance of destroying my Whirlwind or Vindicator with his Hive Guard on the bottom of turn 5.
That said, I was lucky that it became such a close battle in the first place. I actually won the initial roll to determine priority, but ceded first turn to jy2. This was a big mistake-- although this approach is often advantageous in objective missions, in this case I want to be able to get as much shooting on the Hive Tyrants as possible. Luckily for me, successfully Seizing the Initiative (combined with some unlucky armor saves for jy2) mitigated this error and allowed me to open up strong and get back in the game.
All in all this was a great game and I definitely learned a lot about the Tyranids. I also met my initial objective of living longer than the Grey Knights did last week!
2012/12/22 22:30:13
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
mottie85 wrote: I'm sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but I don't understand the large point spread, 8-2. Could you break it down, please?
The Bay Area Open (BAO) scenarios consist of 2 book missions, one worth 4pts and the other worth 3pts as well as the 3 bonus points (First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker) for a total of 10-pts.
In this particular scenario, the Relic was worth 4pts and Big Guns Never Tire was worth 3pts.
My tyranids won both the Relic (4pts) and Big Guns (3pts). I also got Slay the Warlord (his librarian) for another 1pt.
Thus, I had 4+3+1 = 8 pts.
My opponent only had First Blood (1pt) and Slay the Warlord (1pt) for a total of 2pts.
mottie85 wrote: I'm sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but I don't understand the large point spread, 8-2. Could you break it down, please?
In this mission, Relic is worth 4, the entire Big Guns mission is worth 3, and secondaries are normal.
jy2 would take the Relic at the bottom of turn 5 if we had played it out, so he scored 4. We each had 2 Big Guns Never Tire objectives (though there was a chance that either two back objectives would blow up on turn 5 and kill some of our models on them), but jy2 had killed a Vindicator for a bonus point and I failed to kill his Biovore unit, so he won Big Guns as well for 3.
I had First Blood and Slay the Warlord, jy2 had Slay the Warlord, so I got 2 bonus points and he got 1.
jy2 thus had 8 total points (4 for Relic, 3 for Big Guns, 1 for Warlord) and I had 2 (1 for First Blood, 1 for Warlord).
In this case, the final point spread was not necessarily indicative of how close the game was, though. I had essentially no chance of claiming the Relic, but had we had more time (and rolled for the game to continue), I would have a moderate chance of killing his units that could claim it, especially given the risk of failing Instinctive Behavior tests. If I could do that and score a tie on Big Guns Never Tire by killing Biovores, I would be able to win based on secondary objectives.
However, jy2 also would have had a chance to attempt to kill my scoring units to prevent me from taking Big Guns Never Tire objectives. I also had 3 Heavy Support units in my army (discounting the Broadsides, who were very unlikely to die), while he only had 2. So even if I knocked him off one or both of his Big Guns Never Tire objectives while preserving my own (very very unlikely unless the game went to a 7th turn), I could still lose that mission if he were able to kill my Whirlwind and remaining Vindicator.
Further, there was a chance that jy2 could claim Linebreaker, while this was very unlikely for me. If he could successfully do this, the game would at least be a tie even if I managed to block the Relic and tie Big Guns Never Tire-- I would have to actually win Big Guns in order to take the game at that point.
Also, while we ended up stopping because of time running out, it's important to remember that it was the bottom of turn 5. I think I would have had a good chance of taking it had we gone to turn 7 and a fair chance if we had gone to turn 6, but it's important to remember that the game would have ended where it did a third of the time anyway!
2012/12/23 02:55:23
Subject: Re:1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
This game was extremely fun and close. At the end of the game, both armies had taken quite severe damage. Had we had time to continue into later turns, I think I might have had a chance of pulling things out, what with the Synapse creatures dead, but it would have been a scrape either way-- after all, jy2 would have had a pretty good chance of destroying my Whirlwind or Vindicator with his Hive Guard on the bottom of turn 5.
That said, I was lucky that it became such a close battle in the first place. I actually won the initial roll to determine priority, but ceded first turn to jy2. This was a big mistake-- although this approach is often advantageous in objective missions, in this case I want to be able to get as much shooting on the Hive Tyrants as possible. Luckily for me, successfully Seizing the Initiative (combined with some unlucky armor saves for jy2) mitigated this error and allowed me to open up strong and get back in the game.
All in all this was a great game and I definitely learned a lot about the Tyranids. I also met my initial objective of living longer than the Grey Knights did last week!
In a tourney game where you think
1. The game time is to short to play the game to completion
Or
2. Either player is playing a slow playing army
Then you always want to to second. At a certain level, There is a subtle game within the game about making sure the game doesn't go to its natural conclusion and ending prematurely usually on turn five. This is a huge advantage which can almost always lead to a victory for the player going second. Basically just keep it close for four turns and win it on the bottom of turn five.
I am not claiming any of this happened. It almost never happens in pick up games, but it is a nefarious subplot at some of the bigger tourney venues. At our local AWC tourneys in Chicago we make sure the top tables finish their games and don't let a game end because of time. It takes the subtle stalling tactic out of the game. I'm not saying this happened. I only mention this because you said you will consider going first against this type of list again. I agree that going first against this type of bug list is important to deny some of the psychic powers and flying Tyrants, but its a double edged sword because this type of list can also slow play with the best of them and make sure the bug players knows the game will end on turn five.
2012/12/23 03:40:18
Subject: Re:1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau
1. The game time is to short to play the game to completion
Or
2. Either player is playing a slow playing army
Then you always want to to second. At a certain level, There is a subtle game within the game about making sure the game doesn't go to its natural conclusion and ending prematurely usually on turn five. This is a huge advantage which can almost always lead to a victory for the player going second. Basically just keep it close for four turns and win it on the bottom of turn five.
I am not claiming any of this happened. It almost never happens in pick up games, but it is a nefarious subplot at some of the bigger tourney venues. At our local AWC tourneys in Chicago we make sure the top tables finish their games and don't let a game end because of time. It takes the subtle stalling tactic out of the game. I'm not saying this happened. I only mention this because you said you will consider going first against this type of list again. I agree that going first against this type of bug list is important to deny some of the psychic powers and flying Tyrants, but its a double edged sword because this type of list can also slow play with the best of them and make sure the bug players knows the game will end on turn five.
Intentional slow play definitely didn't happen here, we were just not playing very fast and I had a fair amount of questions. In particular, it took a while for me to deploy because I had not faced this type of army before and was trying to ensure that I didn't make any really dumb mistakes.
I do tend to prefer going second because I like having the "final say" on objectives, but I think in this case allowing two turns of shooting from the Flyrants before my Stormtalons arrive would be too much. jy2 would still be able to deploy his Flyrants on-table had I gone first, as we were using a fair amount of LoS blocking terrain, but I would have had a chance to bring in the Stormtalons (my best chance to shoot them down) before he got two turns of shooting. Luckily, I seized the initiative...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/23 03:41:21
2012/12/23 05:40:25
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
Tyranids won but I see it as more of a morale victory for SM-Tau. The latter army is somewhat unconventional and I think a lot of people would say its not competitive. On the other hand I see lots of people playing this style of Nid army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/23 05:41:54
Thank you for taking the time to write up your pre- and post-game thoughts. And thank you for the game. It's refreshing to have a nail-biter of game, and especially against such an unconventional army where most people would have probably considered an underdog in this matchup.
Hopefully, we will see each other again at the BAO if you can make it.
1. The game time is to short to play the game to completion
Or
2. Either player is playing a slow playing army
Then you always want to to second. At a certain level, There is a subtle game within the game about making sure the game doesn't go to its natural conclusion and ending prematurely usually on turn five. This is a huge advantage which can almost always lead to a victory for the player going second. Basically just keep it close for four turns and win it on the bottom of turn five.
I am not claiming any of this happened. It almost never happens in pick up games, but it is a nefarious subplot at some of the bigger tourney venues. At our local AWC tourneys in Chicago we make sure the top tables finish their games and don't let a game end because of time. It takes the subtle stalling tactic out of the game. I'm not saying this happened. I only mention this because you said you will consider going first against this type of list again. I agree that going first against this type of bug list is important to deny some of the psychic powers and flying Tyrants, but its a double edged sword because this type of list can also slow play with the best of them and make sure the bug players knows the game will end on turn five.
Bugs (and ork and probably guards and DE) are just one of those armies that takes a long time to play. The issue isn't that the players are playing slow, although that certainly can happen. The issue is that tyranid players fully take up all 3 phases of the game and have a lot of models. Some armies only really use 1 or 2 phases. For example, guards really don't normally move too much and don't look to assault. It's only their shooting phase which is long. And most assault armies only utilize the movement and assault phases and don't really have much shooting at all. However, bugs fully use the Movement phase, their shooting phases and their assault phases. They don't skip any of the 3 phases if they can help it. Then on top of that, you've got the psychic powers, tervigon gant-spawning, checking your movement phases to make sure everything is within synapse range, checking your movement so that gants will still be within buffing range of tervigons when they charge, etc., etc. And as if that wasn't enough, tyranids have a lot of models to handle as well, especially when you're running gargoyles and several tervigons. Janthkin is one of the fastest tyranid players I've seen and even his games take time to complete (assuming he's not tabling you by Turns 3-4). I consider myself a fairly fast player but even I would be hard pressed to finish a close game in time (not counting blow-outs). Sometimes to save time, especially when I am going second, I already start to deploy my guys even as my opponent who is going first is still deploying his guys.
Going 2nd does have its advantages and I also normally prefer to go 2nd in objectives-based games. However, my experience with bugs is now telling me that it is almost always more advantageous for me to go first for a number of reasons. Firstly, you get to cast all your psychic powers. Second, you can put your flyrants into swoop mode. Third, the alpha-strike combo of dual flyrants, backed up my hive guards and biovores, can and will actually make a difference, both in destroying your enemy and also in destroying your opponents confidence. Fourth, now you have 2 turns of offense before enemy reserves (i.e. flyers) come in and beta-strike your army (i.e. gun down your flyrants). Fifth, you don't have to worry as much about the last turn contesting anymore. Now those fast skimmers and flyers can't contest. That makes it less risky to go first in an objectives-based game.
As for tournament play, the only thing I can recommend is to keep track of time and manage it. Rush, or remind your opponent, if necessary. Sometimes, if I am playing against a slower player, I even offer to help him move his units. Or if you are in a hopeless combat (i.e. 1 termagant against 5 marines), just remove the model to save your opponent the time of rolling dice. Sometimes I even help them with the dice. If they have to roll a lot of dice, I help them to pick out either the hits or the misses, depending on which ones he is removing. But always ask if it is ok in order to save time before you start touching his guys/dice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dozer Blades wrote: Tyranids won but I see it as more of a morale victory for SM-Tau. The latter army is somewhat unconventional and I think a lot of people would say its not competitive. On the other hand I see lots of people playing this style of Nid army.
SM definitely are doing better than most would think. This is my 2nd game against them in 6th. The first time I played against them was against Reecius' TAC marines and they actually beat my Crowe-purifier grey knights who were so dominant back in 5th. And then this game pushed my bugs to their limits. Both were definitely challenging games from what most would consider unconventional and not super-competitive builds. Of course it helps that both generals were great players as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/12/23 06:32:59
Awesome fight you guys! Looked fun and enjoyable to all, I still have to say that seeing those Bugs in action scares the gak out of me, I feel like my rather casual army would just be eaten alive!
I like how well the Tau and Marines seem to work together, Tau with great fire power but poor resilience and the Marines with great great resilience but rather poor range. Together you seem to have most bases covered, I wonder how some Terminators would do with this list...
Check out my little ork story I am working on here!
Yeah, tyranids can be intimidating as heck, especially when they come at you as a unified force. Most armies just don't have the firepower to get rid of that many monsters (and small guys) all at the same time. Which is why in order to do well against them, you need to use sacrificial screening units.
That, IMO, is why Tau actually matches up well against the bugs. They're a shooty army which can hurt the tyranid big guys. They are also used to throwing out screening units to slow down the tyranid advance so that they can hurt more bug big guys.
Tau + Marine is definitely a build that I hadn't really given much thought to until after this game. They do have some nice synergy.
actually tend to kill things which are easier to kill. The broadsides in bastion would just take too much "resources" to kill so I will actually be ignoring them. Instead, I will deny them good targets to shoot at.
I figure a flying MC with smash should destroy a bastion in one go, and then everyone in it takes a bunch of collapse damage.
I also never expected the firewarriors to be on foot in the open against your biovores--I assumed they were going into the bastion-making it a tougher target.
Finally, I bet on you getting good luck at the start with you going first and all... but instead your opponent stole it and beat you down a bit. Losing a tyrant at the start kind of killed my entire vision of the battle, as I figured the 2 tyrants would both be strolling up into the enemy lines completely unmolested thanks to the flying MC rules had you went first.
2012/12/24 14:43:02
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
I figure a flying MC with smash should destroy a bastion in one go, and then everyone in it takes a bunch of collapse damage.
On a good day, maybe. On an average day, most likely not. It isn't easy to destroy land raider-type armor, even for MC's. Most likely it would have required a couple of turns at best. That means a couple of turns of staying on the ground and eating enemy fire. That's a risk I'd rather not take unless I can kill more of his support units.
Besides, I'd rather go for the easy First Blood kill instead.
I also never expected the firewarriors to be on foot in the open against your biovores--I assumed they were going into the bastion-making it a tougher target.
Finally, I bet on you getting good luck at the start with you going first and all... but instead your opponent stole it and beat you down a bit. Losing a tyrant at the start kind of killed my entire vision of the battle, as I figured the 2 tyrants would both be strolling up into the enemy lines completely unmolested thanks to the flying MC rules had you went first.
Yeah, that move surprised me as well. But it's either reserve them and be without their firepower for a couple of turns or take the risk leaving them deployed and use their firepower right away. Honestly, with combat-squads and 4 scoring heavy support units, my opponent could afford to sacrifice his warriors. Better that than for me to kill his heavies, which also count as +1VP to Big Guns Never Tire.
If he hadn't stolen the initiative, I think the game would definitely have been much different. I think it would have been a much more dominant tyranid victory if only I had the time to cast my psychic powers, get my flyrants up in the air and had the opportunity to alpha-strike his army.
To smash the MC needs to halve its attacks. Then to smash a Bastion you need to roll a 5-6 on armor penetration. The Bastion ignores all 1-4's, for the most part. I mean a glance inflicts one wound on a aguy. Not to impressive.
A Flyrant on the charge gets 3 Smash attacks on a Bastion. He needs to roll a 5-6 to inflict some damage. Odds are 1 penetration gets through. Then roll of the building damage table and add 1 for the smashes ap 2.
A roll of 1 means the occupying unit can only snapfire
A roll of 2 means the occupying unit takes d6str 6 hits
A roll of 3 means the occupying unit takes 2d6str 6 hits
Now we are starting to cause some damage, but if the occupying unit is large enough it can shrug this off. They are fearless inside.
A roll of 4 (still adding 1 to the roll) means the Bastion loses d3 armor value to all sides. No effect to the occupying force. This is not a good roll for the Flyrant.
A roll of 5+ effectively destroyed the Bastion.
The most likely scenario is the Flyrant does not kill the Bastion on the first turn of combat and has to sit on the ground and eat return fire. Not only from the Bastion, but more importantly from everyone else.
I am not sure, but does the Flyrant get attacks in the opponents assault phase for being in contact with the Bastion like with a vehicle?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/24 17:31:12
2012/12/24 18:02:27
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
I believe he does - I'm pretty sure buildings are treated exactly like vehicles.
The Flyrant actually has a better chance than that - keep in mind that Smash attacks allow you to re-roll armor pen. Just 3 (auto-hitting) smash attacks should get 2 rolls on the damage table...or 1.666.
I've actually found that Tau and Blood Angels can make a devastating combo. Vanilla Marines are much better than people give them credit for, but I think Blood Angels allies are even scarier.
The fast vehicles pair well with Tau's hit-and-run style. A Librarian with Divination tends to be very helpful (which vanilla marines can't get). You can get some nasty counter-assault units in death company. You do lose the Storm Talons, but the Storm Raven can fill that role to some extent (with the added benefit of being nearly immune to Tyranids).
2012/12/24 18:17:56
Subject: 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau (Completed)
DarthDiggler wrote: I am not sure, but does the Flyrant get attacks in the opponents assault phase for being in contact with the Bastion like with a vehicle?
You know, I'm not sure. Will have to check the rulebook once I get back.
Of course, it wouldn't really matter if the flyrant doesn't survive the opponent's shooting phase.
Siphen wrote: I believe he does - I'm pretty sure buildings are treated exactly like vehicles.
The Flyrant actually has a better chance than that - keep in mind that Smash attacks allow you to re-roll armor pen. Just 3 (auto-hitting) smash attacks should get 2 rolls on the damage table...or 1.666.
I've actually found that Tau and Blood Angels can make a devastating combo. Vanilla Marines are much better than people give them credit for, but I think Blood Angels allies are even scarier.
The fast vehicles pair well with Tau's hit-and-run style. A Librarian with Divination tends to be very helpful (which vanilla marines can't get). You can get some nasty counter-assault units in death company. You do lose the Storm Talons, but the Storm Raven can fill that role to some extent (with the added benefit of being nearly immune to Tyranids).
While I haven't seen a BA-Tau combo, I'm starting to like the SM-Tau combo more, especially if they run a shooty build. The more I think about it, the more I see the synergy between the two.
SM with the combat tactics can really complement the combo. I bait you with a sacrificial tactical squad. You assault. I then voluntarily fall back, leaving your unit out in the open for my entire army to shoot at. That would have been devastating to my flyrants if I would have taken the bait (which I wouldn't have). Now I see why my opponent took 24 fire warriors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/24 18:18:43
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Night Hawks Space Marines - 4000pts. 
