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Given the harsh nature of the 40k universe, I understand (even if I don't like it) that Tau cosmopolitanism would win over a lot of races and peoples. The question now is though, what happens if they confront a civilization as cosmopolitan as themselves: that of the Mass Effect galaxy? Will they negotiate and peacefully integrate into the galactic community? Or will they attempt to subvert or even attack the other races, leading to Spectre/STG intervention or even Human-Turian retaliation?

Note: The Mass Effect setting is post-reconstruction after Destroy ending, so no Geth or Reapers. The Council was saved in Mass Effect, so everyone trusts the Humans, the genophage is cured and Wrex leads the Krogan, so they're respectable members of the galactic community again.

They always offer a peaceful integration. But in the end they will make you join.

Nevie wrote:
They always offer a peaceful integration. But in the end they will make you join.

You're a bit vague. Are you saying the Tau integrate into galactic society or they will subvert it? If the latter, I hate to say this, but the Hierarchy and the Alliance are both gonna kick Tau ass.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Given the harsh nature of the 40k universe, I understand (even if I don't like it) that Tau cosmopolitanism would win over a lot of races and peoples. The question now is though, what happens if they confront a civilization as cosmopolitan as themselves: that of the Mass Effect galaxy? Will they negotiate and peacefully integrate into the galactic community? Or will they attempt to subvert or even attack the other races, leading to Spectre/STG intervention or even Human-Turian retaliation?
.

Cold War in SPESH would happen. And in this scenario, the Tau would be the Soviets, as their society has restrictive elements what could be quite retroproductive. Also, if the opposite faction has populism and consumerism on its side, the the Tau is screwed.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Given the harsh nature of the 40k universe, I understand (even if I don't like it) that Tau cosmopolitanism would win over a lot of races and peoples. The question now is though, what happens if they confront a civilization as cosmopolitan as themselves: that of the Mass Effect galaxy? Will they negotiate and peacefully integrate into the galactic community? Or will they attempt to subvert or even attack the other races, leading to Spectre/STG intervention or even Human-Turian retaliation?
.

Cold War in SPESH would happen. And in this scenario, the Tau would be the Soviets, as their society has restrictive elements what could be quite retroproductive. Also, if the opposite faction has populism and consumerism on its side, the the Tau is screwed.

Mass Effect has populism and consumerism on its side, I can't even count how many mega-corporations I've encountered in-game and in-background.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Mass Effect has populism and consumerism on its side, I can't even count how many mega-corporations I've encountered in-game and in-background.

Then the Tau would fall faster than you can say 'Hugbees'.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Mass Effect has populism and consumerism on its side, I can't even count how many mega-corporations I've encountered in-game and in-background.

Then the Tau would fall faster than you can say 'Hugbees'.

That was fast

I mean, it took the Soviet Union nearly a century to fall, and they were only national in scale. We're talking about a galactic power here, and even faced with the rest of the galaxy, it might take longer for them to fall.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I mean, it took the Soviet Union nearly a century to fall, and they were only national in scale. We're talking about a galactic power here, and even faced with the rest of the galaxy, it might take longer for them to fall.

The SU rose and fall within ~30 years (from WW2 to the late 70's). The Tau would have less time, since the SU had no megacorporations to mess with. Just imagine what economical pressure the Tau would face... The megacorporations would spam the Tau markets with their own super-cheap goods, degrading and taking over the local industry. Since the Tau is an utilitarian race, their "corporations" probably don't produce profit (all excess income is re-investmented), so they will have zero "free" money to answer to this. If they start to "create" money, then their empire will face hyper-inflation, as their economy would literally drown in money. If the Tau takes back their own corporations by force, then the megacorporations would simply pull out everything, and the ensuing vacuum would obliterate the Tau economy for good. So either way, it would be a lose/lose situation for the Tau. Because that's how capitalism works .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

I mean, it took the Soviet Union nearly a century to fall, and they were only national in scale. We're talking about a galactic power here, and even faced with the rest of the galaxy, it might take longer for them to fall.

The SU rose and fall within ~30 years (from WW2 to the late 70's). The Tau would have less time, since the SU had no megacorporations to mess with. Just imagine what economical pressure the Tau would face... The megacorporations would spam the Tau markets with their own super-cheap goods, degrading and taking over the local industry. Since the Tau is an utilitarian race, their "corporations" probably don't produce profit (all excess income is re-investmented), so they will have zero "free" money to answer to this. If they start to "create" money, then their empire will face hyper-inflation, as their economy would literally drown in money. If the Tau takes back their own corporations by force, then the megacorporations would simply pull out everything, and the ensuing vacuum would obliterate the Tau economy for good. So either way, it would be a lose/lose situation for the Tau. Because that's how capitalism works .

They could do what the Batarians did prior to the Reaper Invasion, focusing their economies outside of Citadel Space, though it would mean risking the anarchy of the Terminus Systems, and they wouldn't really be able to compete with the Citadel races on equal terms. Even the Human Systems Alliance (which has the smallest but fastest growing economy in the galaxy) would outstrip them simply by being able to deal in Citadel Space...anyway, could the Tau handle expansion into the Terminus?

EDIT: Or the Tau could adopt a protectionist policy with regards to non-Tau corporations operating in Tau space...

Tau aren't communists, they are a meritocratic caste system. They have a caste which is uniquely suited for trade and they also have "lowly workers" and are quite capable of producing high value goods to be sold at high value for a low cost.

You see, for some reason the 40k universe has an abundance of habitable planets. A typical 40k solar system have more than one Earth-type planet and more than one Earth-type moon. In most Sci-Fi this is not the case.
The Tau are vast, their organisation is not that of diverging interest, and their aptitude for dealing with others in a civilized and capitalistic manner is if anything better than their military capacity.

If that's the case, then the Tau should be capable of handling the economic challenges of Mass Effect. However, the original question remains unanswered: would the Tau integrate into the galactic community, or would they oppose it?

 Mahtamori wrote:
You see, for some reason the 40k universe has an abundance of habitable planets.

I think this is explained that a huge amount of terraforming happened during the Dark Age of Technology and even continued during the Great Crusade.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that's the case, then the Tau should be capable of handling the economic challenges of Mass Effect. However, the original question remains unanswered: would the Tau integrate into the galactic community, or would they oppose it?

Why should the Tau Empire decide to integrate itself into a galaxtic community which is, at least for the Tau, vastly inferior to what they already have?
The Tau as a species crave order and stability, something that the Empire, thanks to it's rather unique nature, provides.
Accepting dozens of ultimately competing governments as basicaly equal in status would not realy further that goal. For the Tau Empire and ultimately the entire galaxy the Tau way is, at least in their opinion, the optimal one.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that's the case, then the Tau should be capable of handling the economic challenges of Mass Effect. However, the original question remains unanswered: would the Tau integrate into the galactic community, or would they oppose it?

Why should the Tau Empire decide to integrate itself into a galaxtic community which is, at least for the Tau, vastly inferior to what they already have?
The Tau as a species crave order and stability, something that the Empire, thanks to it's rather unique nature, provides.
Accepting dozens of ultimately competing governments as basicaly equal in status would not realy further that goal. For the Tau Empire and ultimately the entire galaxy the Tau way is, at least in their opinion, the optimal one.

I doubt the Greater Good would hold much appeal for the Citadel races. And subverting their populations would not end well...once hostilities are confirmed, Spectres and STG teams would disrupt Tau communications and destroy strategic targets allowing the Alliance to launch lightning strikes to cripple the Tau navy. Then the Council would attempt to negotiate...if the Tau still refuse to consider the needs/concerns of the rest of the galaxy, the Turians will march, followed shortly by the Alliance.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that's the case, then the Tau should be capable of handling the economic challenges of Mass Effect. However, the original question remains unanswered: would the Tau integrate into the galactic community, or would they oppose it?

Why should the Tau Empire decide to integrate itself into a galaxtic community which is, at least for the Tau, vastly inferior to what they already have?
The Tau as a species crave order and stability, something that the Empire, thanks to it's rather unique nature, provides.
Accepting dozens of ultimately competing governments as basicaly equal in status would not realy further that goal. For the Tau Empire and ultimately the entire galaxy the Tau way is, at least in their opinion, the optimal one.

I doubt the Greater Good would hold much appeal for the Citadel races. And subverting their populations would not end well...once hostilities are confirmed, Spectres and STG teams would disrupt Tau communications and destroy strategic targets allowing the Alliance to launch lightning strikes to cripple the Tau navy. Then the Council would attempt to negotiate...if the Tau still refuse to consider the needs/concerns of the rest of the galaxy, the Turians will march, followed shortly by the Alliance.

Yeah the "Greater Good" wouldn't mean jack to the Citadel, which mostly revolves around money and politics not social order hahaha

And in the case of total war, it would basically be the Damocles Crusade over again but the Imperium would be much, much more technologically advanced and even with the Tau (Imagine DAoT Imperium but with the numbers of the modern Imperial Guard...oh...and they aren't incredibly xenophobic)

 washout77 wrote:


And in the case of total war, it would basically be the Damocles Crusade over again but the Imperium would be much, much more technologically advanced and even with the Tau (Imagine DAoT Imperium but with the numbers of the modern Imperial Guard...oh...and they aren't incredibly xenophobic)

Well, the Tau would probably accept the Council's terms after the Spectres or the STG cripple their infrastructure and the Alliance cripples their fleet (yes, the Turians are the real power-house of the Citadel races, but the Mass Effect Humans and their military can be characterized as a 'lightning bolt' in the hands of the Council due to their preference for high-speed attacks and mobile warfare). If they still refuse to accept, the Turians and the Humans, and in the case of an extended campaign, the rest of the Citadel races (including the Krogan and the Quarians since this is after the Destroy ending) would grind them to paste, after which the Tau will find themselves in a situation similar to the pre-Wrex Krogan: Citadel-controlled battlestations hang in orbit over their worlds, their fleet is forfeited, and they're under constant surveillance by the Council and its client races. In the meantime, the former subject races of the Tau Empire are granted self-government and are warmly welcomed into the Citadel fold, which would just be rubbing salt into the Tau's wounds, as the species that once depended on them now have no further need for them and are unlikely to vouch for them to the Council.

EDIT: And did I mention the Salarians will probably be conducting experiments on Tau subjects? The Ethereals in particular would prove intriguing to say the least to them.

Well, 2 things that need to be taken into account:

1-how powerful is Tau tech compared to ME tech? IIRC some guys did a calculation of the raw power of the most basic guns, and bolters would rip ME level of armor apart, pulse guns are stronger then that. while on the flip side, ME guns should not have an easy time against "simple" armor like the FW suits, and the crisis/broadsides would be extremely hard to take down. I don't want to thing what something as the manta can do, that thing is debatefully more powerful then a reaper.

When you compare anything 40K to another setting you MUST remember that 40K is a setting where everything and everyone is taken up the eleven and capable of planetary-scale destruction with ease. even a smaller faction like the Tau are grossly overpowered when compared to another setting.

2-are the Tau clever enough to integrate into the community in an attempt to take over from within? it seems like a possible path of action for the Tau, and considering all the supercooperations means that the simple guy is probably pretty low of the food chain, it should not be hard to sell the message to the masses.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, 2 things that need to be taken into account:

1-how powerful is Tau tech compared to ME tech? IIRC some guys did a calculation of the raw power of the most basic guns, and bolters would rip ME level of armor apart, pulse guns are stronger then that. while on the flip side, ME guns should not have an easy time against "simple" armor like the FW suits, and the crisis/broadsides would be extremely hard to take down. I don't want to thing what something as the manta can do, that thing is debatefully more powerful then a reaper.

You do realize that Reapers can take hits from ship-mounted Mass Accelerators which are basically coilguns larger than those mounted on Mantas, right? And Mass Effect armor (at least those of regular militaries) boast kinetic barriers designed to block solid shots while the armor itself is ablative in nature, i.e. designed specifically to counter directed-energy weapons.

2-are the Tau clever enough to integrate into the community in an attempt to take over from within? it seems like a possible path of action for the Tau, and considering all the supercooperations means that the simple guy is probably pretty low of the food chain, it should not be hard to sell the message to the masses.

Except Mass Effect factions (well, the Citadel races in any case) operate like the free world did during the Cold War. IIRC, Soviet-style communism (which the Tau resemble in many ways) had little to offer their citizens, ultimately leading to the downfall of the Soviet Union.

EDIT: As for planetary destruction, well the Turians and the Krogans have been known to make use of 'colony drop' tactics, i.e. redirecting asteroids/comets or de-orbiting space stations/hulks on top of the enemy (although the former only do it on non-garden worlds), and mention has been made of nano-machine weapons and nuclear/anti-matter devices capable of causing nuclear winters with one detonation.

Mass Effect technology is garbage compared to the 40k, to be perfectly blunt.

The average dreadnought vessel's mass effect accelerator's round has a kinetic energy of 38 kilotons.

This isn't very impressive, frankly, when compared to the continent liquidating power of 40k starship weapons.

The Tau possess a fleet that can contend with ships capable of laying out firepower that dwarfs anything and everything shown in ME.

They conquer ME.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Mass Effect technology is garbage compared to the 40k, to be perfectly blunt.

The average dreadnought vessel's mass effect accelerator's round has a kinetic energy of 38 kilotons.

This isn't very impressive, frankly, when compared to the continent liquidating power of 40k starship weapons.

Not when that gun fires every seconds. In fact, that's the reason Mass Effect gunners are very careful about firing volleys until after they have a complete firing solution and even more so when there's an inhabited planet behind the enemy fleet.

 FinalAnswer wrote:
The Tau possess a fleet that can contend with ships capable of laying out firepower that dwarfs anything and everything shown in ME.

They conquer ME.

The Reapers have put planets to the torch from orbit alone. Remember Palaven and Earth? Most of the damage came not from the Reaper ground assault, but from the initial bombardment alone.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Not when that gun fires every seconds. In fact, that's the reason Mass Effect gunners are very careful about firing volleys until after they have a complete firing solution and even more so when there's an inhabited planet behind the enemy fleet.

I don't think you realize the sheer difference in firepower we are talking here.

It takes about 4.184e+13 - 1.12968e+16 joules to destroy a relatively small city. The destructive power of a Dreadnought falls around here, based on its listed value of 38 kilotons.

To destroy a continent? 1.6736e+29 - 2.24e+32 joules.

Also, 40k ships have a higher ROF. Macrobatteries fire in volleys.

The Reapers have put planets to the torch from orbit alone. Remember Palaven and Earth? Most of the damage came not from the Reaper ground assault, but from the initial bombardment alone.

Any fleet in 40k barring maybe Tyranids or Orks is capable of this. That your example is of far and away the most advanced race in the galaxy doing this says it all.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Not when that gun fires every seconds. In fact, that's the reason Mass Effect gunners are very careful about firing volleys until after they have a complete firing solution and even more so when there's an inhabited planet behind the enemy fleet.

I don't think you realize the sheer difference in firepower we are talking here.

It takes about 4.184e+13 - 1.12968e+16 joules to destroy a relatively small city. The destructive power of a Dreadnought falls around here, based on its listed value of 38 kilotons.

To destroy a continent? 1.6736e+29 - 2.24e+32 joules.

Also, 40k ships have a higher ROF. Macrobatteries fire in volleys.

Last I looked, the Tau used Railguns and Ion Cannons as opposed to weapon batteries and Lances, and the BFG data shows the Tau are somewhat outgunned by Imperial and other factions' navies. Please don't bring the Imperium and other non-Tau factions into this.

The Reapers have put planets to the torch from orbit alone. Remember Palaven and Earth? Most of the damage came not from the Reaper ground assault, but from the initial bombardment alone.

Any fleet in 40k barring maybe Tyranids or Orks is capable of this. That your example is of far and away the most advanced race in the galaxy doing this says it all.

The Citadel races have arguably surpassed the Reapers after reconstruction in Destroy though, as they apparently managed to repair the Mass Relays and the Citadel, and have probably disassembled and reverse-engineered the 'dead' Reapers.

 FinalAnswer wrote:
The Tau possess a fleet that can contend with ships capable of laying out firepower that dwarfs anything and everything shown in ME.
.

Wrong. The Tau has the worst space-bound warships of the 40k universe. In BFG, if you play Tau then your whole game is about screaming and launching ordnance while praying to Jesus for various reasons.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 FinalAnswer wrote:
The Tau possess a fleet that can contend with ships capable of laying out firepower that dwarfs anything and everything shown in ME.
.

Wrong. The Tau has the worst space-bound warships of the 40k universe. In BFG, if you play Tau then your whole game is about screaming and launching ordnance while praying to Jesus for various reasons.

Quite correct. While their Ion Cannons are comparable to Lances, their version of the weapon battery, the Railgun, is downright puny. The BFG file on the Tau fleet gives the strongest Railgun battery at strength 6; this is downright puny, at least when compared to Chaos warships or an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser or something similarly loaded with weapon batteries. This also places them at a disadvantage against Eldar, since weapon batteries are the only truly reliable counter against holo-fields.

Which, incidentally, is why I think the Tau are a one of the few instances where X v Y can be fairly interesting.

I can imagine Tau pulse guns doing a similar sort of damage as say, a rapid firing Widow sniper rifle - not just a Black Widow.

That puts them in a kind of "incredibly scary" scale but not a 'is it even worth discussing this' level.

The way I see it, it'd probably end up being most of the mass effect factions basic soldiers (eg Ceberus Troopers) would be nothing but flak. It's only when they add in Kinetic Barriers on their men (EG Centurians) that they could reasonably start lasting a couple of volleys from the Tau.

I'd like to argue that Hammerhead and Mako weaponry wouldn't be miles apart from Tau err.... Hammerheads. Heh, fancy that.... The guns even look similar Of course, Tau still win out in firepower and armour.

I can imagine that the Reapers would still be as apocalyptic to the Tau as they are to anyone else. And Bob forbid an Etherael gets indoctrinated.

I'm a bit confused with Ceberus to be honest, I still don't really understand how they magically became such a massive power in ME3, even if they have taken over some colony worlds entirely.

Geth, that seems almost bread and butter for Tau.

Offhand, I'd say that the Tau would possibly win out against a couple of the main council races together but if the Council goes on a full war footing. Things may very well go against the Tau eventually. But then, I haven't read about the Damocles Gulf Crusade and it might very well end up that there would be significant defections from the attacking side.

 Compel wrote:

Offhand, I'd say that the Tau would possibly win out against a couple of the main council races together but if the Council goes on a full war footing. Things may very well go against the Tau eventually...

Agreed. The Turians and the Humans might not be able to defeat the Tau alone or together, but its unlikely as well that the Tau could win a complete victory against them. Which would probably just lead to the mobilization of other races.

...it might very well end up that there would be significant defections from the attacking side.

Quite unlikely IMO, as the caste-centred and utilitarian-driven Tau would have very little to offer the very individualistic Citadel races. The Humans, Turians, and the Asari in particular would consider such a system as totalitarian and no different from the old Batarian Hegemony.

There's a long ass way from not being a match for teraton level weaponry to being threatened by kiloton level weaponry. The Tau may such compared to other WH40K races, but these are other WH40K races.

Even if you were to argue that Tau warships have weapons and defenses that are a thousand times weaker than those of the Imperium they'd still be several orders of magnitude above those of ME, which means ME is screwed.

ME simply isn't on the same tier as WH40K or even the tier or two below WH40K.

the Tau would offer peaceful integration. but since chances are they wouldnt accept it, all in ME would be destroyed.

 Galorian wrote:
There's a long ass way from not being a match for teraton level weaponry to being threatened by kiloton level weaponry. The Tau may such compared to other WH40K races, but these are other WH40K races.

Even if you were to argue that Tau warships have weapons and defenses that are a thousand times weaker than those of the Imperium they'd still be several orders of magnitude above those of ME, which means ME is screwed.

ME simply isn't on the same tier as WH40K or even the tier or two below WH40K.

I wouldn't go that far. Mass Effect is much more advanced than the 40k verse in some ways and less advanced in others. This is a universe that offers personal shielding as standard issue and has weapons that almost never run of ammunition. Plus, they have advanced AI that don't go rogue all the times, bleeding hover cars as standard, stable quasi-psykers, ships with huge cannons and so on. While a Systems Alliance soldier is hardly the equal of a Space Marine they can easily go toe to toe with a guardsman. Things like Lascannons, Plasma Guns and Meltaguns would overpower anything the Mass Effect guys could wear but they have things that can punch through 40k armor as well.

As for the Tau, I would see them as guys with rapid fire sniper rifles but relatively poor aim. With the special gadgets the Citadel races can field I don't think the Tau would curb stomp anyone but the Tau, with their own toys, wouldn't be obliterated as well.