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Right- I know the main factor in the development of this conflict is Horus (somewhat unimaginably named the Horus Heresy).
But who is really to blame for this? The Emperor? The Chaos Gods?

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
But who is really to blame for this? The Emperor? The Chaos Gods?

Some of it is certainly down to the Emp being a tool and completely ignoring the signs/warnings (especially the warning from Magnus, and setting the SW's on to the 1000 sons). The rest of the blame probably lays with Chaos worming its way from the Word Bearers into the other legions and eventually all the way up to Horus.

Pretty much the Emperor's fault. If he was open/honest with the Primarchs about the nature of Chaos and the Webway Project, the Heresy would not have happened. Lorgar's conversion (and thus Horus') was largely because he was shocked over the Emperor's lies.

I would say the chaos gods are to blame. The emperor came quite close to beating them, but in the end he was not strong enough. A pitty since humans make sutch good chaos worshippers. Did chaos plan it all along? Who knows.

To be honest, the actual heresy itself was the Chaos Gods doing.

Now that said, the Emperor could have very easily prevented most of the turnings. Horus was a lost cause, since he was kind of...forced to turn to Chaos...but quite a few re-aligned themselves because of the Big-E's mistakes

The Chaos Gods - for starting all of that.

The Emperor - for being terrible father.

The Primarchs - for being spoiled brats.

But overall it was Chaos Gods, they initiated all of that.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
The Chaos Gods - for starting all of that.

The Emperor - for being terrible father.

The Primarchs - for being spoiled brats.

But overall it was Chaos Gods, they initiated all of that.

Yeah, if you want to define singular fault, it's Chaos.

If you're willing at accept that there is no singular answer, you get that there were a ton of "faults" for the Heresy.

The Emperor should have told the Primarchs about Chaos so that they could be wary of their lies. (I always laugh when Chaos players say the Emperor lied, without acknowledging that the Chaos Gods did nothing but lie. The Emperor just left some stuff out).

The traitor Primarchs, Lorgar especially, were weak. Not really their "faults" but hey.



The Emperor's biggest mistakes:

Not warning the Primarchs about Chaos so that they could be suspicious and wary of them. He denied them that basic defense. And by denying it, provided them an easy way to trick the ones who turned traitor. This is really the core mistake he made. It wasn't that he "lied" and they found out the "truth". That's Chaos player imagination, lol. What happened is that the "truth" found them and realized they wouldn't know the difference between lies and truth.

Not putting down Angron like a rabid dog the second he found him. Angryon was never going to be anything but a liability.

Not realizing Lorgar was the weakest of his brothers (mentally, emotionally and spiritually) and thus extremely vulnerable. Using the best brother to chastise the worst one? Good lord, lol. What an awful choice.

The Emperor for not trusting all his sons with the truth about the warp and how they came to be.

Emperor, should have not been so secretive about everything. also may have helped had he not set himself up as a god, no good comes from that.

I like to think its the Emperors fault, made a deal with the Chaos Gods, didn't fill his side of the bargain and thats why he refused to tell anyone else about the Chaos Gods, to do so would require the risk of others knowing his terrible secret and them then turning away from him as he wasn't the leader he made himself out to be.

Old Ones - for causing the chaos gods to be created.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Using the best brother to chastise the worst one? Good lord, lol. What an awful choice.

As I recall, Sanguinius was not used to chastise Lorgar, Guilliman was.

Its the Emperors fault. More or less everything that happened can be laid at his arrogant feet.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Using the best brother to chastise the worst one? Good lord, lol. What an awful choice.

As I recall, Sanguinius was not used to chastise Lorgar, Guilliman was.

But no, seriously. When you look at what Lorgar was being chastised for, there was no worse choice than Guilliman to carry out the punishment. He was "The Good Son". The one who had done everything exactly the way he was supposed to. If Lorgar was to look at one of his brothers as the "example", it was Guilliman. By using Guilliman to destroy Monarchia, the Emperor was trying to say "Guilliman does what he is supposed to. You should be like him." Lorgar interpreted it as "You're worthless. I wish you had been like Guilliman." And that was why Lorgar developed such an irrational hatred of Guilliman, because he thought that Guilliman despised him, and had taken pleasure in destroying Monarchia. In reality, Guilliman had destroyed Monarchia because the Emperor told him to, and Guilliman always did what he was told.

Ya know..you would think a 10'000 year old man would have took a few courses in psychology

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


But no, seriously. When you look at what Lorgar was being chastised for, there was no worse choice than Guilliman to carry out the punishment. He was "The Good Son". The one who had done everything exactly the way he was supposed to. If Lorgar was to look at one of his brothers as the "example", it was Guilliman. By using Guilliman to destroy Monarchia, the Emperor was trying to say "Guilliman does what he is supposed to. You should be like him." Lorgar interpreted it as "You're worthless. I wish you had been like Guilliman." And that was why Lorgar developed such an irrational hatred of Guilliman, because he thought that Guilliman despised him, and had taken pleasure in destroying Monarchia. In reality, Guilliman had destroyed Monarchia because the Emperor told him to, and Guilliman always did what he was told.

I agree, lol.

It probably did not help that, despite all his other virtues, Guilliman doesn't seem to be the most personable of his brothers (Which may be why he considered Ferrus Manus his bro4life), making it hard for Lorgar's view of him to be invalidated (Until Betrayer apparently, from what I hear).

Though really... There is one gaping plothole I think I've noticed in the HH.

The Emperor is the single most powerful psyker in the galaxy, maybe even the mightiest to ever live. His son, Magnus the Red, is second to only him. When he and Magnus met Lorgar, Kor Phaeron was there. Kor Phaeron was also a closeted Chaos cultist. I find it kind of hard to believe that the Emperor, who has a history of being controlling and psychicically dicking around with others on a whim (Zahariel, the Fabricator General of Mars, the entire Word Bearers legion, etc.), or even Magnus, could so easily miss the true nature of Kor Phaeron's corruption. That's just me anyway.

In a way he was lying to them because he was saying that there are no such things as gods but in a sense the beings in the warp are gods. Though a couple of the legions believe the Emperor is just a traitor to humanity and all this other crap, in the end I blame the emperor for being stupid and not thinking this crap through. so I choose the orks for they are the smartest of all the races... In their own since

IIRC the Emperor deluded Horus into believing that the denizens of the Warp were mostly mindless xenos that happen to reside in the Warp.

That's pretty much as straightforward as lies get.

I think Th Emperor told all his "Most informed" people that. He though he was lord of Mushrooms after all.

Emperor all the way.

He could have stopped all this with a simple sentence like "BTW, there are a few clever devious xenos out there in the warp who have some psychic power, avoid these guys at all costs if you value your souls."
And its even the truth!
FFS, how hard was it to think of THAT? especially when you are aware of their true nature?

The Emperor was a bit daft yes, but the largest blame is to be laid at Chaos itself ofcourse, being quiet nasty all around for no convincing reason.

But even if the Emperor was daft you have to agree that some of the primachs were whiney little bitches. "Oh no father lied"... "lets go ape-gak and rape the universe!" Yeah, mature reasoning there mr Primarch. How about confronting your father about the lies first?

Boreal wrote:
The Emperor was a bit daft yes, but the largest blame is to be laid at Chaos itself ofcourse, being quiet nasty all around for no convincing reason.

But even if the Emperor was daft you have to agree that some of the primachs were whiney little bitches. "Oh no father lied"... "lets go ape-gak and rape the universe!" Yeah, mature reasoning there mr Primarch. How about confronting your father about the lies first?

Logar comes to mind.

I blame the Necrons for forcing the Old Ones to exploit the warp, and thus set in flow the series of events which would create the Chaos Gods.

Most of the blame, however, lies with the Emperor. Despite being an ancient demi-god superbeing who's observed and manipulated most of human history, you'd think he'd know a little bit about basic human behaviour, and would know how to handle his sons, so they don't go all, well, flying rodent gak crazy.

It's kind of odd how the Emperor is described as having a deep, personal love for Horus, enough so that he refused to use his full strength against him until ol' Pius got flayed alive, yet he wasn't comfortable giving him a basic primer on the nature of Chaos, or what he was up to back on Earth?

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Ya know..you would think a 10'000 year old man would have took a few courses in psychology

38,000 at the time of the HH.

Then he had time to take a parenting class as well.

Parenting classes teach you nothing. Only experience as a parent raising your own children can teach you how to be a good parent or recognize when you have made mistakes with your children and attempt not to make those mistakes with your other children. However, I think the emperor is deserving of some level of leniency in this regard as all of the primarchs were taken from him by chaos, and he was not reunited with them until the majority of them were well into their adult years. The fault then extends to those who raised the primarchs on their home worlds and the societies they were raised in. Thus where the very characteristic and individual aspects of each primarch was forged.

The emperors fault IMO, lies in his misconstrued perception that he alone could harness and protect humanity from the powers of chaos. By not educating the primarchs in the dangers and uses of the warp, they were unequipped to resist or see the value in the effects of the warp. Had Magnus been guided and encouraged to use his abilities for good, the HH would have been averted. Had Lorgar also been educated he may not have been as willing to turn to chaos and had Horus himself been trained at all in these respects he could have recognized that he was been treated by chaos worshipers. Had the Luna wolves had any education in regards to what a demon blade was they would have recognized it when they saw it.

Just as in regards to gun control, a person with no knowledge or training in the use of firearms can be more deadly or show less respect for the power of the weapon than those trained in its use and with the education to recognize the power a weapon can hold.

The failure to educate the Space Marines and the primarchs who lead them at the time of the 30k millennium, are the direct and indirect causes of the Heresy. Of which blame can be placed on both sides but ultimately the ability to stop the rebellion was wholly within the Emperors ability to prevent or protect against, IMO.

Or the Emperor could have just killed Kor Phaeron when a cursory telepathic glance towards him revealed that he was deep in Chaos mojo.

Though yeah, it is actually pointed out in Know No Fear at the least that the Council of Nikaea deprived the Space Marines of their greatest weapon against the Warp (The Librarians), which lends further credence towards how badly he handled Doctor Maguns the Red.

Eh on parenting, at 38'000 years old he had to have a few kids along the way. Or ya know...notice human freaking nature.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
Eh on parenting, at 38'000 years old he had to have a few kids along the way. Or ya know...notice human freaking nature.

Only a few?

A few sessions with a therapist would not have hurt either,


I know of his children, I always find it funny they are classified as "filthy mutant scum" yet their father is not