Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Old world of Darkness, the wyrm, weaver, and wyld do not leave anything untouched. Cain and the antedelluvians do not compare to the werewolf mythos.

Assuming they're fighting at full power, no-holds bars, the Marvel-verse would win out over the 40k-verse.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Engine of War wrote:
The Bolo universe. The huge numbers of gigantic mega tanks as big or bigger then titans with planet crushing firepower would be more then a match for the 40k Universe.

As much as I like the Bolo universe, and giant tanks, I think 40k would crush them. Bolos are basically playing the same game as the titan legions, just in tank form, not giant walkers. They might have an edge in technology, but are going to be massively outnumbered by the IoM alone, not counting the xenos. Hellbores are just mega plasma guns, and infinite repeaters are comparable to heavy bolters. Depending on the mark, you could probably field one in an apocalypse game without much trouble.

While I agree the Dinochrome brigade would have issues, Bolo's are what Titan's want to be when they grow up. Early Mark 20s would be even match to any titan, the late Mark 30s would curb stop titans and then start smacking the Mechanicus fleet around in orbit.

The problem when compairing different universes is that what might be a kickass weapon in one universe might be a steaming pile in another. Lets use the lasgun, Now this is taken from Factpile becuase they get alot of 40k vs matches there.

Eisenhorn Omnibus, page 483:
“I fired my laspistol, powering shot after shot at him, driving him backwards. His gold-chest battle suit, which gave his shrivelled frame the bulk and frame and proportions of a Space Marine, absorbed or deflected the impacts, but the sheer force knocked him back several paces.”

A) The man in the suit is a withered old Witch Hunter, who whilst receiving the benefit of the suits augmented strength, is relatively perhaps not the best candidate to wear Astartes gear in comparison to half a ton of naked Space Marine. Kind of obvious, but you need it spelled out for you.

B) Assuming that the old man weighs somewhere in the average 100kg range – for someone capable of wearing a two and a half meter tall suit without collapsing under their own weight – then coupled with the added tonnage of the suit itself, the Las-Pistol is capable of physically forcing (as the quote implies) 1.1 tons of mass at a distance of three meters; assuming of course that we’re talking about Space Marine sized paces.

Which means that a mass-less, photon based beam form the standard Imperial sidearm is capable of exerting 3300 newtons of force; in comparison a .50 caliber sniper rifle round generates only 20.59 newtons, it takes 700 newtons to lift a man off his feet and throw him, and the Gauss Cannon (the heaviest infantry operated anti-vehicle projectile weapon in the UNSC) is only responsible for less than a thousand newtons.

C) Last, and most importantly, he survived. Said beams, regardless of their imparted force and energy, were being deflected harmlessly off his suit; which when you think about the Las-Pistols ability to flash boil meter long Fish submerged in cold sea water, is incredibly impressive.

———-

“Uriel turned to the sheltering Ultramarines and shouted, ‘Follow me!’ – A lasbolt struck him square in the chest. Uriel staggered, but did not fall, the eagle at the centre of his breastplate running molten. Chaplain Clausel rose to his feet.’

This is the only mention of Lasgun melting I could find, which is bizarre because the actual impact only melts the Eagle emblem itself, and nothing else (the rest of the time it only scores, or blackens the paint).

First of all, laser weapons (as I’ve demonstrated) generate a lot of elastic force upon impact, thousands of newtons in fact from a Las-Pistol alone, so this shouldn’t come as a surprise that it causes him to stagger.

Secondly, we have no idea what the Emblem itself is made of, therefore we can almost any material density from silicon to industrial steel and still not ascertain an accurate answer. However, let’s assume that the Emblem is made of Iron and has a rectangular dimension of 30 cm x100 cm x1 cm for a total volume of 3000 cm^3; then at a density of 7.874 gram per cubic centimeter, the Emblem would have a mass of approximately 23.622 kg. The energy required to melt iron (heat it from 150K to melting point and then add latent heat of fusion) is roughly 1.28 MJ/kg, therefore the energy required to melt the entire emblem would be equal to 30.236 megajoules. Of course this is merely a low end that doesn’t take into account ablation, chemical impurities and other factors that would decrease the overall value.

Now that is a spicy meatball. In comparison, here are the listed energy ratings of the following weapons and rounds per use:

M1911A1 .45 ACP: 0.47 kilojoules
AK-47 (7.62x39mm): 2.01 kilojoules
BR55HB SR Battle Rifle (Halo): 4.05 kilojoules
Barrett M82 (.50 BMG): 20.1 kilojoules
Agrpinaa pattern militia autogun (40K): 33.6 kilojoules
M67 grenade: 600 kilojoules

Of course, one should note that the damage mechanism between laser, kinetic and explosive weaponry is not uniform. Therefore a high megajoule laser, whilst capable of cremating a human alive, will not necessarily penetrate tank armor (although it would turn large portions to slag) due to the noted inefficiencies in both kinetic impacts and thermal heating. Laser weapons such as the Lasgun usually generate brief high-energy pulses in large quantities, so a single megajoule delivered as a laser pulse is roughly the same energy as 200g of high explosive, and has the same basic effect on a target.

all from L-W from factpile

Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

Give the green lantern ring, a weapon fueled by imagination, will power and intelligence to the batman.

 doc1234 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

Give the green lantern ring, a weapon fueled by imagination, will power and intelligence to the batman.

Yes, but the Green Lantern will get his ass kicked by the Imperial Fists every time.

 doc1234 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

Give the green lantern ring, a weapon fueled by imagination, will power and intelligence to the batman.

And then kill Batman's girlfriend and get a free 5 years of Batman doing nothing but growing a beard and practising a limp.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

We're talking the Marvel Universe: that isn't JUST Captain America, Iron Man, or Punisher. That's those three, ALL the X-Men, the Shi'Ar Empire, the Skrull Empire, the Kree Empire, Annihilus and his Annihilation Wave, the full compliment of Sentinels, the rest of the Avengers, Galactus, Ego, Thanos, Phalanx, Magneto, Juggernaut (who can't be harmed AT ALL physically), Dr. Strange with Clea, Mordo and Dormammu, Doom with his army of Doom Bots...do you want me to go on? Get your own "mumbo jumbo" out of here. 40k is fethed. Oh yeah...did I mention PHOENIX? She eats stars. Stars! Despite the jokes about her, she has only died a couple times, but she ALWAYS comes back. Mumbo jumbo indeed.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

Now imagine a warship that considers "able to destroy planets" an insultingly low estimate of its firepower. Now imagine it being controlled by a god-like AI that fights entire fleet battles (at high FTL speeds) in small fractions of a second. Now imagine a civilization that builds ringworlds to live on because planets are so aesthetically unappealing, and can therefore build these ships in obscene quantities. So, imagine one of these planet-killing god warships for every member of the Imperial Guard (if they'd ever do something as inelegant as that).

Oh wait, I lied about one thing there: the ship isn't even good enough to be considered a warship, it's just a civilian transport. 40k is screwed.

After reading about the Culture, and how absurdly powerful they are, something struck me.

For all their advanced tech, they aren'y even the strongest force in their universe.

Yeah, the Culture's Universe is absurdly killy.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

We're talking the Marvel Universe: that isn't JUST Captain America, Iron Man, or Punisher. That's those three, ALL the X-Men, the Shi'Ar Empire, the Skrull Empire, the Kree Empire, Annihilus and his Annihilation Wave, the full compliment of Sentinels, the rest of the Avengers, Galactus, Ego, Thanos, Phalanx, Magneto, Juggernaut (who can't be harmed AT ALL physically), Dr. Strange with Clea, Mordo and Dormammu, Doom with his army of Doom Bots...do you want me to go on? Get your own "mumbo jumbo" out of here. 40k is fethed. Oh yeah...did I mention PHOENIX? She eats stars. Stars! Despite the jokes about her, she has only died a couple times, but she ALWAYS comes back. Mumbo jumbo indeed.

And then imagine the quantities of Gods of the 40K universe. I can't even list half of them straight off my head. Alright...

Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, The Hive Mind (IMHO), The Emperor, The Void Dragon, Khaine, Gork, Mork, The Nightbringer, the Deceiver... And the Omnissiah.

"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day so that he may never truly die.Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat to humanity from aliens, heretics, mutants -- and far, far worse. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

After a bit of looking, I also Found Malal. It has warriors that are dedicated to slaying other chaotic servants, possibly some of the most badass things in the universe, all upon it's whim. Everything is it's enemy.

The only thing, IMHO, thjat could oppose 40k is the Culture. Star Wars is owned, Halo is owned... Yeah. Supreme Commander is also owned.

Also, you seem to forget the measures the Imperium would go to. It doesn't matter that there are untold billions of guardsmen, there are many more untold billions of humans. I imagine a third of them would be conscripted for the epic war, and then you'd probably have more space marine chapters being created, as well. With such a situation, The High Lords of Terra would go to any extent. The full might of the Grey Knights, the SOB, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Inquisition, The Deathwatch, the Ordo Assassinorum, the PDF (there would be no need, because all of the 40K danger is gone.)

Then, the Orks. They manufacture walkers that have the firepower to obliterate continents, and then they are never truly wiped out. If one was to dump an ork Horde (say about a billion?) on a planet inhabited by the enemy, they would never be exterminated. Even if they did not immediately annihilate the planet, there would be MORE because of their spores. They also happen to be based off Australians.

The Dark/Eldar would conduct hit and run attacks on the enemy, devastating them even further. However, if they launched an attack on the other universe, they would have no Webway. Hmm.

Necrons would raise every tomb world, and probably have even more World Engines online. They would give Necrodermis to the IOM, allowing them to have titans that regenerate themselves after time. The C'Tan would be awesome to see.

Chaos Space Marines and Daemons would all ally, and Malak would be there as well. They would just unleash a tide of devastation, as the Emperor would allow the Chaos Gods into reality, and then there would be no saving the universe. The heightened emotions of the IOM (fear, hatred, courage) would give the chaos gods a high. The Space Marines and the Cahos Space Marines together would be terrifying.

Tau? To be honest... they won't do much. They may give some nice tech.

Then Nids. With everybody goen to fight the war, they'll eat all the planets, and then come. And own.

 Kaldor wrote:

Yes, but the Green Lantern will get his ass kicked by the Imperial Fists every time.

The Yellow Impurity/Weakness can be overcome.

From the sounds of things the Cultureverse is a pretty impressive place, but 40k would be second on the list methinks.

Personal I vote for Dougla Adam's

The problem that 40k would have with Marvel Universe is not lack of firepower. It's lack of OTT science, super innovative thinking and milestone breakthroughs made in two days time by a single person.
There were threats that no brute force, no magic, no bullets and no energy weapons could defeat. They always had to be dealt with using some super complicated virus (computer based or organic) that ruined the threat.
It's no coincidence that half of the heroes are super brainiacs, god-level scientists and have access to laboratories that can analyse everything.

Wh40k solves problem by: prayer (optional), hitting, shooting, zapping and throwing more bodies at it. Innovation probably isn't even a word.
Entities that are energy sponges, consume all matter and create autonomous nano-bots, survive any level of radiation / open space and are AI based would have no counter in any of the wh40k races.
Even Necrons don't have the likes of Reed Richards or Bruce Banner.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Try me. What fictional universe could defeat 40k in a universe-on-universe battle?

Only the universe that is more ridiculously powerful or have heroes that have plot armor bigger than Imperial forces.
Gurren Lagan comes in mind, I mean how can you defeat a robot that is big as half of universe?
Marvel universe because it's full of ridiculously powerful Mary Sues who could probably kill Chaos Gods.

I don't know about the others, but if we take all other "normal" universes ( as normal as having a bit of reality like Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo and yes Warhammer 40.000 fits there too ) there really isn't one that can match 40k, 40k is simply too powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

A single Culture ship would do it effortlessly.

Culture cannot fight against Chaos Gods, in the end all AI and humanoids would be corrupted and possessed. 40k wins again.

Because in the end no matter how technologically advanced something is magic is always stronger than technology.


p.s.

Ash.

No one so far has mentioned the Xeelee from Stephen Baxter's Xeelee Sequence.

In terms of sheer resources and technological ability the Culture isn't even in their league. They are able to engineer galactic-scale megastructures , which means that the entire Milky Way could be rendered down for building materials if they felt like it...

No one... sadly, no one...

Please, Starcraft would have a chance, Star Wars would have a chance, the marvel or dc universe would have a chance (and probably own face), perhaps mass effect. The 40k universe isn't all that powerful, and the legion starters are not nigh invincible.

Starcraft... to small... Star wars too small... seen the fleet comperation pics?

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:


Culture cannot fight against Chaos Gods, in the end all AI and humanoids would be corrupted and possessed. 40k wins again.

Sure they can.

That is what the Culture excels at.. setting it's enemies against each other and have them annihilate each other (or join the Culture in peaceful co-existence) without anyone ever knowing the Culture was ever there, much less manipulating behind the scenes.

And it sure as hell doesn't take The Culture-level mastery of manipulation to set the Chaos factions/Gods against each other.

 Peregrine wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
Imagine Captain America (on steroids) wearing a suit of Iron Man armor carrying an arsenal that would make the Punisher gak himself. Then multiply him by million. Only then will you have a very slight inkling of a small tip of an iceburg that the other universes are up against.

Straight up war, 40K is going to win. Hell, the IoM is going to win by themselves. Get the mumbo jumbo out of here. Were talking a shooting war.

Now imagine a warship that considers "able to destroy planets" an insultingly low estimate of its firepower. Now imagine it being controlled by a god-like AI that fights entire fleet battles (at high FTL speeds) in small fractions of a second. Now imagine a civilization that builds ringworlds to live on because planets are so aesthetically unappealing, and can therefore build these ships in obscene quantities. So, imagine one of these planet-killing god warships for every member of the Imperial Guard (if they'd ever do something as inelegant as that).

Oh wait, I lied about one thing there: the ship isn't even good enough to be considered a warship, it's just a civilian transport. 40k is screwed.

Sure, now imagine the Culture riven by internal conflict as Chaos Daemons possess and corrupt them.

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is what the Culture excels at.. setting it's enemies against each other and have them annihilate each other (or join the Culture in peaceful co-existence) without anyone ever knowing the Culture was ever there, much less manipulating behind the scenes.

And it sure as hell doesn't take The Culture-level mastery of manipulation to set the Chaos factions/Gods against each other.

I am pretty sure Chaos Gods are not that stupid to let mere mortals manipulate them against each-other, they were after all able to manipulate Primarchs and Eldar who are one of the most powerful and prosperous beings in 40k universe.
Besides, Chaos can corrupt machines as well as mortal flesh. They generate enormous Warp storm and corrupt everything inside, machine and flesh. Even in all out war Culture and everyone else would lose because no matter how much they throw at Chaos they would just made it stronger. In the end Chaos would win even against hem.
In the end Culture would become Chaos, all it's machines and living beings, because no technology can fight against Chaos magic ( just ask Death Guard for that ).

I'd say 40k would lose to a number, it has a lot of flaws.

Emperor dies- No more Imperium, no more warp travel for Imperial forces.
Warp closed- No more Chaos, no 40k psychic powers, no more warp travel. (Webway might also cease to function).
Space Marine in Terminator armour knocked off his feet- Can't get up.
Space Marine in Power armour- Needs to roll to the front to get up, if back pack is damaged Power Armour powers down, if ruptured back pack blows up killing everything within X distance.
Kill the humans- Chaos gets weaker.

Other than the Dark/Eldar every other race has slow transportation between battle fields. Chances are the Eldar would retreat to the Webway and stay there til its over with.

40k is also full of idiots who fail to understand that they merely need to fire a 2nd shot a split second later at anything with a void shield. They drop after being hit with a Titan weapon. They need to re-established after that and they also don't protect if anything gets within the shield itself.

Given 40k psychic powers are a mutation related thing as well then 40k powers can be turned off by anything which can manipulate the area, Force Users, Marvel Psychics, Magic Users, Nanotech, etc.
If someone protected Magneto from energy attacks (Las weapons) then he could easily defeat most of the Imperium alone.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

That is what the Culture excels at.. setting it's enemies against each other and have them annihilate each other (or join the Culture in peaceful co-existence) without anyone ever knowing the Culture was ever there, much less manipulating behind the scenes.

And it sure as hell doesn't take The Culture-level mastery of manipulation to set the Chaos factions/Gods against each other.

I am pretty sure Chaos Gods are not that stupid to let mere mortals manipulate them against each-other, they were after all able to manipulate Primarchs and Eldar who are one of the most powerful and prosperous beings in 40k universe.

Well, the Culture isn't mere mortals. And the combined intelligence of the Eldar race is mere child's play to the Culture. It could probably identify the sum of all of Tzeentch schemes in complete detail with all relevent outcomes (including those created/including temporal/warp-related paradoxes) in the history of 40K in mere nano-seconds.

The Culture also is highly-efficient at purging internal corruption. If organisations such as the Grey Knights manage to stay uncorrupted through staunch vigilance, then so can the Culture.

Finally, the Culture excels rather well at fighting proxy-wars. It might be a mystery in 40K who "engineered" the Tau, but a civilization such as the Tau, with some in-build resilience to Chaos Corruption, seems like an obvious ploy a Culture Mind could think of as one approach to test the waters against an enemy like Chaos (as well as probably another 10 layers of safeguard engineered into the galactic history, their genetic makeup, whatever,, who would all annihilate the Tau, if it doesn't work out as planned).

And, as noted, the Culture isn't the biggest fish in the pond, as shown most notably with Excession

Me for the really random barely known reference
The universe of Simon R Green
They had access to a weapon called the deplorable end. It was held outside of reality and could be pointed at an entire universe. They universe was then destroyed.
Or just pull things from the deathstalker era like Shub, sleepers, transmutation engines, survivors of the madness maze. They would tear through 40K like butter.

SkyD wrote:
I'd say 40k would lose to a number, it has a lot of flaws.

Emperor dies- No more Imperium, no more warp travel for Imperial forces.
Warp closed- No more Chaos, no 40k psychic powers, no more warp travel. (Webway might also cease to function).
Space Marine in Terminator armour knocked off his feet- Can't get up.
Space Marine in Power armour- Needs to roll to the front to get up, if back pack is damaged Power Armour powers down, if ruptured back pack blows up killing everything within X distance.
Kill the humans- Chaos gets weaker.

Other than the Dark/Eldar every other race has slow transportation between battle fields. Chances are the Eldar would retreat to the Webway and stay there til its over with.

40k is also full of idiots who fail to understand that they merely need to fire a 2nd shot a split second later at anything with a void shield. They drop after being hit with a Titan weapon. They need to re-established after that and they also don't protect if anything gets within the shield itself.

Given 40k psychic powers are a mutation related thing as well then 40k powers can be turned off by anything which can manipulate the area, Force Users, Marvel Psychics, Magic Users, Nanotech, etc.
If someone protected Magneto from energy attacks (Las weapons) then he could easily defeat most of the Imperium alone.

Yeah, then somebody would just detonate a cyclonic torpedo right next to him, and he can't deflect flames.

You also seem to forget that the suggested war is the 40k universe going all out against the enemy, attacking like a rabid dog. I think only the Marvel Verse would be on the same level, and even then the 40k universe would win in a war of attrition. Of course, the culture would blast 40k to bits.

Star Wars and Starcraft are, of course, owned. Halo is too, unless you think of the precursors... and then we don't even know how powerful they are, really. So we can't use that.

 Hive Fleet Lazarus wrote:
Me for the really random barely known reference
The universe of Simon R Green
They had access to a weapon called the deplorable end. It was held outside of reality and could be pointed at an entire universe. They universe was then destroyed.
Or just pull things from the deathstalker era like Shub, sleepers, transmutation engines, survivors of the madness maze. They would tear through 40K like butter.

Or just arm John Taylor with the Speaking gun and let him improvise suddenly, violently and all over the place Set Razor Eddie Into the warp to do "Distressing things" to yet more gods. Not forgetting Johns "mummy dearest" who more than likey MADE a few chaos gods at the start along with the rest of her brood. Damn id forgotten how over the top Green's books were And thats before we get into the REALLY over the top characters.