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So, I run a World Eater's list, and I'm in a pickle.

I want to take berserkers for fluff reasons - what's Khornier than berserkers right? The problem is, for 30 points less than the cost of 16 berserkers with an icon of wrath and vets of the long war, I can get 16 CSM, MoK, IoW, Votlw, with Bolters and CCW/pistols. The latter also has the option for meltas or plasma guns, which the berserkers can't. Or, if I don't care about the boltguns, I can get the same 16 man squad for a whopping 60 points less than the berserkers. Now I lose fearless and 1 WS, but I don't see how that's worth it at all.

What am I missing? Or are marked CSMs just that much better?

I'm not morally opposed to using them as the meat of my list, but it'd make me sad to cut berserkers out altogether.

Dan

Ha Khornier don't zerks have an extra attack on their base profile ? Also their chainaxes are AP4 add in fearless and they are worth it plus if you mark a unit with khorne ut ideally wants ro be in melee as quickly as possible negating the bolters

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
Ha Khornier don't zerks have an extra attack on their base profile ? Also their chainaxes are AP4 add in fearless and they are worth it plus if you mark a unit with khorne ut ideally wants ro be in melee as quickly as possible negating the bolters

Nope they lost their extra attack which is why they are useless now.

BTW I own 60 berzerkers so this really angered me when they came out. Now I just use Either BA for Death co. or space wolves for wolf guard or GH.... Much better codexes for khorne.

Lol... BA, SW and GH better than CSM to make a Khorne list... I'm not syainf it's untrue, just that's silly...

Ahhh well that officially makes Zerkers the most useless cult troop choice

Beserkers have rage and counter attack though. I guess there are better things in the C:SM codex for the elite slot. But things aren't much better in BA land.

Martel732 wrote:
Beserkers have rage and counter attack though.

Regular chaos space marines can have rage and counter attack for 2 points per model (mark of khorne) which is why it's not worth mentioning for berserkers

Oh. Didn't know that. So the C:SM codex is even better than I thought :( Yes, I must agree about berserkers then. They should still have their 2 attack stat line then.

The thing bezerkers have over CSMs that can't be replicated are:
WS5
Furious Charge
Fearless

And also they have
CounterCharge
Rage

For 19 points each. So basically, for 8 points over your regular 7marine, you get one that IS significantly better at melee, due to potential S5 and weapon skill 5, as well as Fearless.

Unfortunately, I do agree that it's still not enough to make Bezerkers good, but they are ok troop choices with a Khorne lord. They make particularly good footslogging hordes, due to their Fearlessness.

DrDuckman wrote:
The thing bezerkers have over CSMs that can't be replicated are:
WS5
Furious Charge
Fearless

And also they have
CounterCharge
Rage

For 19 points each. So basically, for 8 points over your regular 7marine, you get one that IS significantly better at melee, due to potential S5 and weapon skill 5, as well as Fearless.

Unfortunately, I do agree that it's still not enough to make Bezerkers good, but they are ok troop choices with a Khorne lord. They make particularly good footslogging hordes, due to their Fearlessness.

A Chaos Space Marine with Mark of Khorne is only 15 points, and only lacks Furious Charge and WS5, but can gain Furious Charge for only 20 points. Chaos Marines are far better value, and can take both Flamers and Melta Guns.

10 Chaos marines, Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath 180 points
10 Khorne Bezerkers 200 points,

Yeah, so I guess there's not trick to it. Time to rig up a bunch of backpacks with bolters slung on them so my World Eaters can adapt to the changing times. Fearless and WS5 just aren't worth losing the special weapons and dropping extra points.

From a Khornite point of view I'm pretty happy with the rest of the book - the Hellbrute and Maulerfiend are both quite Khornish, and the MoK base marines are awesome.

Still, I do wish the berserkers had something to make them stand out.

loosing bezerkers was a pain, but i shaved the horns off them and now run the as CSM w/ extra CCW. no to mention they look great shaven down to normal helmets

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
Ahhh well that officially makes Zerkers the most useless cult troop choice

note that Tsons are worse and noisemarines arent great. Culttroops in general are bad, but zerkers aren't the worst.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:
The thing bezerkers have over CSMs that can't be replicated are:
WS5
Furious Charge
Fearless

And also they have
CounterCharge
Rage

For 19 points each. So basically, for 8 points over your regular 7marine, you get one that IS significantly better at melee, due to potential S5 and weapon skill 5, as well as Fearless.

Unfortunately, I do agree that it's still not enough to make Bezerkers good, but they are ok troop choices with a Khorne lord. They make particularly good footslogging hordes, due to their Fearlessness.

A Chaos Space Marine with Mark of Khorne is only 15 points, and only lacks Furious Charge and WS5, but can gain Furious Charge for only 20 points. Chaos Marines are far better value, and can take both Flamers and Melta Guns.

10 Chaos marines, Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath 180 points
10 Khorne Bezerkers 200 points,

the meltagun/flamer is a huge upgrade

Yea, the specials alone settle it for me. Biggest perk KB have is fearless.

Well, they are'nt THAT much cheaper, lets not go nuts here.
A khorne CSM with all the trimmings is still 16 points (18 if you take a bolter), and that's not including the price for an icon, who's values depends on the squad size. I think having WS5 and fearless is well worth the 3ish points, especially for what you actually want berserkers to do, which is get stuck in.

Bolters are absolutly useless. If you arent in charge range, you should be running, and if you are in charge rage, you should either be shooting with pistols, or nothing. Same sentiment goes for the special weapons. Why on earth would you give a khorne squad a plasmagun? So he can shoot, and waste all those points you spent on close-combat gear? Theyre are far better special weapon carriers in the codex. Give those to havoks or chosen.

Berserkers are still better at fighting, which is what theyre for. WS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and gives you far more wounds against MEQ, as is furious charge AND fearless (which csm cant get at the same time without a character. and those can both be sniped out)

Khorne CSM are better at multitasking, but not as good at fighting. Berzerkers are more specialized at their one role. If thats the role you need filled, then use berserkers.

Khornate Chosen end up with a billion attacks on the charge or after rapid firing. Might be something for you to look into!

Remember the world eaters didn't only have close combat specialists and I'm sure Khorne appreciates a bullet ridden corpse as much as the next guy.

Fabulous Bill + Big Blob CSM + Huron sounds like a good frame work.

You could also just run a Juggerlord and huron for a more foot friendly assaulty/rapidfire range CSM list. Juggerlords really shine in point levels where it is hard to field fully fledged deathstary units.

Fearless is actually not a small thing. Such CC units will usually take casualties if you are running them across the board as a blob. (Or even in a Rhino if it is destroyed). Fearless means they just keep on going to the last man. All it takes is one failed leadership, for normal CSM and they run backwards instead of forwards!

Once you start taking stuff like Icons of vengence, then even the normal CSM unit gets just as expensive. The plus 1 strength from furious charge and WS 5 is also not a small thing. That translates to more hits and more wounds.

Berserkers are not the best, I think they are balanced in the sense that they are not any worse than fully kitted out regular khorne marked CSM. Points wise it should be pretty close.

 McGibs wrote:
Well, they are'nt THAT much cheaper, lets not go nuts here.
A khorne CSM with all the trimmings is still 16 points (18 if you take a bolter), and that's not including the price for an icon, who's values depends on the squad size. I think having WS5 and fearless is well worth the 3ish points, especially for what you actually want berserkers to do, which is get stuck in.

Bolters are absolutly useless. If you arent in charge range, you should be running, and if you are in charge rage, you should either be shooting with pistols, or nothing. Same sentiment goes for the special weapons. Why on earth would you give a khorne squad a plasmagun? So he can shoot, and waste all those points you spent on close-combat gear? Theyre are far better special weapon carriers in the codex. Give those to havoks or chosen.

Berserkers are still better at fighting, which is what theyre for. WS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and gives you far more wounds against MEQ, as is furious charge AND fearless (which csm cant get at the same time without a character. and those can both be sniped out)

Khorne CSM are better at multitasking, but not as good at fighting. Berzerkers are more specialized at their one role. If thats the role you need filled, then use berserkers.

Sorry but bolters aren't useless and the access to special weapons tips the scale in the CSM favor. Rhino assault means you have to stand there for a turn after you disembark. CSM can lay down some hurt with special weapons and rapid fire bolters. Granted I think noise marines are better because they get the AP3 flamer, but khorne CSM are significantly more useful than berzerkers. The few extra hits you get from WS5 won't be made up for by the lack of damage you did by not having bolters or special weapons.

True, but if I really wanted to do Khorne and berseker theme, I think I would run them across in a blob rather than have 10 berserkers in a Rhino.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
True, but if I really wanted to do Khorne and berseker theme, I think I would run them across in a blob rather than have 10 berserkers in a Rhino.

The rhinos are more than worth the cost of 1.5 marines. Many more will make it to combat, not to mention you get searchlights, combi weapons, or even a havoc launcher for a few points. Turn one move 18", turn two move 6" disembark. Granted you will want three or four rhinos full of dudes.

Who says they need to be in a rhino? Of course CSM are better when theyre sitting around for a turn with thier thumbs in their asses after they disembark.
Put zerkers in a land raider, infiltrate them with huron, or take them in foot blobs with target saturation (berserkers tend to make it to their target when the enemy is too busy dealing with bikes and spawn)

 McGibs wrote:

Put zerkers in a land raider, infiltrate them with huron, or take them in foot blobs with target saturation (berserkers tend to make it to their target when the enemy is too busy dealing with bikes and spawn)

Infiltrating units can only take vehicles with them if the vehicle is a dedicated transport. Berserkers could therefore infiltrate with a rhino, but the only unit that can infiltrate with a land raider is a unit of terminators.

OR infiltrate them with Huron.

If you want units for assaulting and melee combat, I still do reccomend the berserkers in this edition. Fearless, an extra attack, plus the benefits of the khorne mark make for quite good assaulting units.

For a more general role, you may want to take units of CSM with khorne mark, as you get the options for different weapons and such, ans they're less expensive.

If you play on a level where a few points really matters to you, consider it a little more thoroughly, otherwise the general suggestions I've given above should work fine for you.

I have a very fluffy world eaters army (everything is still in units of 8 from 3.5 ) and berserkers are my only troops choice and have been since the 3.5 codex. I think they are a very good unit. Fearless and WS5 are definitely deciding factors when it comes to choosing them or csm with mok. I usually put 1 squad in a land raider accompanied by kharn and a lord with axe of blind fury and have have another squad in a rhino behind the land raider so when they disembark they can spend the turn of doing nothing out of sight behind the land raider then charge in the turn after. The third squad just foot slogs it with my terminators and dreadnought. I have been thinking of including a unit of cultists for home objective holding as berserkers aren't really built for that

 McGibs wrote:
Well, they are'nt THAT much cheaper, lets not go nuts here.
A khorne CSM with all the trimmings is still 16 points (18 if you take a bolter), and that's not including the price for an icon, who's values depends on the squad size. I think having WS5 and fearless is well worth the 3ish points, especially for what you actually want berserkers to do, which is get stuck in.

Bolters are absolutly useless. If you arent in charge range, you should be running, and if you are in charge rage, you should either be shooting with pistols, or nothing. Same sentiment goes for the special weapons. Why on earth would you give a khorne squad a plasmagun? So he can shoot, and waste all those points you spent on close-combat gear? Theyre are far better special weapon carriers in the codex. Give those to havoks or chosen.


Berserkers are still better at fighting, which is what theyre for. WS5 is nothing to sneeze at, and gives you far more wounds against MEQ, as is furious charge AND fearless (which csm cant get at the same time without a character. and those can both be sniped out)

Khorne CSM are better at multitasking, but not as good at fighting. Berzerkers are more specialized at their one role. If thats the role you need filled, then use berserkers.

Cost of twelve Chaos space marines 210 points
Mark of Khorne
Icon of Wrath
Close combat weapons replacing bolt guns

Number of attacks on the charge
1 base, 2 from charge, 1 from CC weapons and Bolt pistol. 4 attacks for marine and 5 for Chaos champion. 49 on the charge.

Cost of twelve Bezerkers 238 points
1 base, 2 from charge, 1 from CC weapons and Bolt pistol. 4 attacks and 5 for Chaos champion. 49 on the charge.

The Chaos space marines only lack WS5 and fearless, which can be gained from a character who could join the squad. The Bezerkers can't get flamers which are great against hordes, especially those that are about to be charged.

I thought berzerkers had 2 attacks. Did this change? If so where do you keep up with this info?

Exalbaru wrote:
I thought berzerkers had 2 attacks. Did this change? If so where do you keep up with this info?

Bezerkers where reduced to one attack base with the new codex, the Champion now having two.

Exalbaru wrote:
I thought berzerkers had 2 attacks. Did this change? If so where do you keep up with this info?

in the new codex, that unfortuneatly is $55

 Exergy wrote:

Exalbaru wrote:
I thought berzerkers had 2 attacks. Did this change? If so where do you keep up with this info?

in the new codex, that unfortunately is $55

"But the images, they is coloured! Its worth its!"

The codex isn't great for it's price (only a hundred or so pages), so you might as well go for an online retailer.