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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 14:49:30
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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My wife just got me the new codex for yule and yea 50 is pricy as hell for a codex. That sucks though, 2atk was why I liked zerkers before. Although assault is kinda weakened down in 6th
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 15:38:55
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
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CSM or Berserkers? I say Plague Marines! Againt everything non-fearless, the PMs are better than the 'zerkers. The Plague Knives, MoN, FnP and the Blight Grenades (plus the potentional double special weapons) really make a difference...
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My armies:
14000 points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 15:45:42
Subject: CSM vs. Berserkers
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
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blood reaper wrote:DrDuckman wrote:The thing bezerkers have over CSMs that can't be replicated are:
WS5
Furious Charge
Fearless
And also they have
CounterCharge
Rage
For 19 points each. So basically, for 8 points over your regular 7marine, you get one that IS significantly better at melee, due to potential S5 and weapon skill 5, as well as Fearless.
Unfortunately, I do agree that it's still not enough to make Bezerkers good, but they are ok troop choices with a Khorne lord. They make particularly good footslogging hordes, due to their Fearlessness.
A Chaos Space Marine with Mark of Khorne is only 15 points, and only lacks Furious Charge and WS5, but can gain Furious Charge for only 20 points. Chaos Marines are far better value, and can take both Flamers and Melta Guns.
10 Chaos marines, Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath 180 points
10 Khorne Bezerkers 200 points,
To get 2 close combat attacks for a regular Chaos Marine you have to purchase the close combat weapon for another 2 points, so Khorne Chaos Marines are actually 17 points to make them equivalent in the number of attacks they get; and they'd need the marching bolter fire to make up for their lower Strength on the charge and lower WS. Plus Fearlessness is pretty important now that the regular CSM leadership is lower, so you almost have to take VoTLW to have the odds of passing Ld checks. So that puts the CSMs nearly equal in points to Bezerkers: 13+2+2+1=18 vs 19 for a Beserker.
Having the flamers might actually be a selling point for the Khorne CSM; however the real selling point is they can be Troops without having a Khorne Lord or Kharn in your army. (Those Nurgle Lords are pretty good on a bike with the Black Mace. But that's for another thread...) Plasma pistols are fun, a little pricy, but they've nailed plenty a vehicle in many games.
Giving Berzerkers chainaxes may not be worth it however, although I learned last Saturday that Necron Warriors only have 4+ armor saves, so that might be a good idea?
I was also pissed that Berzerkers got the extra attack sucked away, not to mention the Furious Charge is no longer +1 initiative. Both of those were a big screw job to assault units everywhere, then you take into account they get Overwatched.....But assault is certainly not dead, my Juggernaut Fury Axe Lord and Nurgle Daemon Prince proved that also last Satyrday. If you take into account the Axe Lord's awesomeness then Khorne didn't get completely screwed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 16:35:36
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Barpharanges
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Chaos marines may exchange their bolt guns for a close combat weapon for free.
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The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 17:30:59
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Commanding Orc Boss
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What it boils down to - bolter CSM and chosen aside - is that I can get everything I want out of berserkers except fearless and WS5 for 60 points cheaper with MoK VotlW IoW CSM squad.
The question then becomes: "Is fearless and WS5 worth 60 points on a 16 man unit?"
So far, the best counterpoints I've heard were offered by McGibbs - furious charge can be sniped out of the CSM squad, which is valid, and that WS5 means tons more wounds vs. MEQ.
Are these worth the 60 points though? That's half a maulerfiend, or 3 more guys for the CSM squad. Nine times out of 10, I'm going with the cheaper squad, especially when that cheaper squad adds 2 special weapons that can pile on extra wounds prior to charging. Let's do the math:
12 Berskers vs. MEQ:
pistol shots = 8 hits, 3 wounds, 2 saves = 1 wound
49 attacks w/ hatred= 44 hits, 30 wounds, 20 saves = 10 wounds
11 total wounds on the charge
12 CSM w/ 2 flamers vs. MEQ:
shots = 6 pistol hits + 6 flamer hits = 6 wounds, 4 saves = 2 wounds (no change for melta stats)
49 attacks w/ hatred = 37 hits, 25 wounds, 17 saves = 8 wounds
10 wounds on the charge
Now flamers add 10 points to the unit cost, and meltas add 20, so we're still looking at a 50-60 point gap between the units.
I don't see 60 points worth of results there - especially when you consider the added value of the special weapons outside this example (vehicle/building threat, more overwatch hits with the flamer)
Once we talk about adding bolters to the unit, which still means the CSM unit is 30 points cheaper, we add to the tactical value of the unit and change the whole equation. Bolter CSMs are much better at holding OBJs than berserkers. I won't do the comparison with chosen, because their unit size restrictions and elite slot take them out off the board for my troops choices.
Dan
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 18:59:18
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Is there an hq that lets chosen be troops tho?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/26 22:13:58
Subject: Re:CSM vs. Berserkers
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Barpharanges
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Abaddon does, but it's an expensive list.
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The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/27 01:36:50
Subject: CSM vs. Berserkers
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Lord Krungharr wrote:
To get 2 close combat attacks for a regular Chaos Marine you have to purchase the close combat weapon for another 2 points, so Khorne Chaos Marines are actually 17 points to make them equivalent in the number of attacks they get; and they'd need the marching bolter fire to make up for their lower Strength on the charge and lower WS. Plus Fearlessness is pretty important now that the regular CSM leadership is lower, so you almost have to take VoTLW to have the odds of passing Ld checks. So that puts the CSMs nearly equal in points to Bezerkers: 13+2+2+1=18 vs 19 for a Beserker.
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FALSE, CSM can swap their bolter for a CCW for free. 13 points with BP and CCW, 15 with MoK BP and CCW.
VotLW also gives you hatred SM, which you REALLY want if you are going into combat, so 16 points for CSM and 20 points for Bezerkers.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/27 02:26:29
Subject: CSM vs. Berserkers
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Add in the cost of the icon, and its 17-18 points per marine. And then the cost of special weapons, which is why youre taking csm.
I think ws5 and fearless are well worth the 2ppm on the berserkers if your goal with the squad is fighting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/27 15:12:35
Subject: CSM vs. Berserkers
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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The question is whether Berzerkers are worth it now in the new Dex.
I don't play them, but the other Chaos players at my local store have switched to using their Berzerker models as Khorne CSMs instead. While fearless is useful, it's not essential and flamers are more useful.
If you really need the extra attack, get a CL with the Axe of Blind Fury to charge in with the unit. The extra attacks usually make up for what the rest of the unit is lacking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/12/27 16:12:02
Subject: CSM vs. Berserkers
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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techsoldaten wrote:The question is whether Berzerkers are worth it now in the new Dex.
I don't play them, but the other Chaos players at my local store have switched to using their Berzerker models as Khorne CSMs instead. While fearless is useful, it's not essential and flamers are more useful.
If you really need the extra attack, get a CL with the Axe of Blind Fury to charge in with the unit. The extra attacks usually make up for what the rest of the unit is lacking.
they really arent worth it. if you know you are already going to be paying the tax to make them troops, a squad might be worth it to know they are fearless but the lack of special weapons and additional cost are unlikely to really turn the tide.
At best with Kharn or jugger lord with AoBF im thinking you mix and match, CSM, Zerkers, and cultists.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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