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I tend to come down on Neorealist's side of this one.

"any guns" could be intended to mean"any guns incidentally present on the model in question", but the explicit meaning isn't limited just to that.

Fluff-wise it fits better, too, so is more likelt to be RAI.

DeathReaper wrote:Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.

They are both from the same rules paragraph. Is there something involving the latter quote that indicates it's just as valid a rule as the first one or vice versa? (i'm getting somewhat tired of asking this and getting no better response than some variant of 'it just is')

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.

They are both from the same rules paragraph. Is there something involving the latter quote that indicates it's just as valid a rule as the first one or vice versa? (i'm getting somewhat tired of asking this and getting no better response than some variant of 'it just is')

How about you point me to the rules that cover:

"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?

Page reference please.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.

They are both from the same rules paragraph. Is there something involving the latter quote that indicates it's just as valid a rule as the first one or vice versa? (i'm getting somewhat tired of asking this and getting no better response than some variant of 'it just is')

How about you point me to the rules that cover:

"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?

Page reference please.

Obviously the context tells you they cannot shoot ranged weapons.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.

They are both from the same rules paragraph. Is there something involving the latter quote that indicates it's just as valid a rule as the first one or vice versa? (i'm getting somewhat tired of asking this and getting no better response than some variant of 'it just is')

How about you point me to the rules that cover:

"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?

Page reference please.

Obviously the context tells you they cannot shoot ranged weapons.

No, the context says they cannot shoot any ranged weapons the models are armed with. It says nothing about a gun they happen to shamble up to.

DeathReaper wrote: How about you point me to the rules that cover:
"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."
Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?
Page reference please.

Sure thing: the rules for 'clubbing their victims to death' are found on pages 20 to 28 in the 'The Assault Phase' section.

 Grey Templar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Because one of those references actual rules, and one does not.

They are both from the same rules paragraph. Is there something involving the latter quote that indicates it's just as valid a rule as the first one or vice versa? (i'm getting somewhat tired of asking this and getting no better response than some variant of 'it just is')

How about you point me to the rules that cover:

"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?

Page reference please.

Obviously the context tells you they cannot shoot ranged weapons.

No, the context says they cannot shoot any ranged weapons the models are armed with. It says nothing about a gun they happen to shamble up to.

any guns ... hmmm any guns

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote: How about you point me to the rules that cover:
"...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."
Where are the rules for "clubbing their victims to death"?
Page reference please.

Sure thing: the rules for 'clubbing their victims to death' are found on pages 20 to 28 in the 'The Assault Phase' section.

I read that section twice, nothing there said anything about "clubbing their victims to death"

Specific page where it tells you the rules for this?

Grey Templar wrote: No, the context says they cannot shoot any ranged weapons the models are armed with. It says nothing about a gun they happen to shamble up to.

Heh. You may want to address the literal words printed in the actual rules before trying to assign a 'context' to them? Because what they actually say in this case may not quite be the exact opposite of what you are trying to imply, but is a reasonably close approximation thereof.

DeathReaper wrote: I read that section twice, nothing there said anything about "clubbing their victims to death"
Specific page where it tells you the rules for this?

I'm sorry, but your failure to comprehend the basics of close combat in 40k is not my concern, and more importantly has precious little to do with the topic of this thread.

I know exactly how close combat works.

However nowhere in the Assault section does it mention any rules for "clubbing their victims to death"

That means it is fluff, as you can not point to any specific rules as to what "clubbing their victims to death" means within the 40k Rules.

What are the rules for a "gun" in 40k? What weapon type is a "gun"?

By the rules, zombies have autoguns and auto pistols... so I can use the pistol then, since we seem to think a "gun" is the only thing they can't use?

"Gun" isn't a game term, it doesn't have a rule effect, it means nothing!

Does Hammer of Wrath have any implication on using "Hammers" in the game?

Just because explanatory text uses the word "gun", does not give you any permission to disallow use of a "Quad-Gun" or a "Gun Emplacement". Dots are being connected that just aren't there.

Does someone really think that a non game term referring to equipment on a model, effects a game mechanic that utilizes the same three letters in a row but is a different word?!

It is quite clear to me that cultists can use quad-guns. They can use them for clubbing people to death.

DeathReaper wrote:I know exactly how close combat works.

Great, i was beginning to wonder, since you were asking how a model would club another model to death; which is the quintiessential point of close combat.

That said, you also appear to be asking if the close combat rules contain a literal transcription of the phrase "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." ? In which case your answer is no. That said: there isn't a single rule that comes to mind that contains word-for-word a copy of another rule that it refers to; as that would be senselessly wasteful of both time and effort. Ergo, your 'argument' that such a distinction is important is irrelevent and disingenuous.

Yes they can, they can fire their pistols too, as of the last FAQ:

ERRATA
Page 61 – Typhus, Plague Zombies
Change to ‘Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the
Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules
and cannot purchase options other than to add additional
models to the unit.’

Nothing stopping them from shooting, nothing stopping them from getting two cc bonus attacks.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:


Running just says "you can run instead of firing". Gun Emplacements says "may fire it instead of their own weapon." Do you see the difference here?

Mind you, I'm also just playing devil's advocate, but I am personally on the side of zombies not being allowed to use it.

A TH/SS armed Terminator can fire the Gun Emplacement, even though it has no ranged weapons of its own right?

Don't know, now. *Shrug* Going by the straight wording of the rules I'd say no. Same with Scarabs, Flayed Ones, Wraiths (without particle casters or exile rays), and lychguard.

Intended? Probably not, I'd say. How it reads? Well, to me, yes.

Zombie fluff-wise are supposed to be dead retards who don't even know how to shoot, but I would allow it as RAW does not actually state otherwise. Just as RAW my Autarch can take a power maul or axe if he so wishes. Until it is FAQed/Errata-ed otherwise.

 Neorealist wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:I know exactly how close combat works.

Great, i was beginning to wonder, since you were asking how a model would club another model to death; which is the quintiessential point of close combat.

That said, you also appear to be asking if the close combat rules contain a literal transcription of the phrase "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." ? In which case your answer is no. That said: there isn't a single rule that comes to mind that contains word-for-word a copy of another rule that it refers to; as that would be senselessly wasteful of both time and effort. Ergo, your 'argument' that such a distinction is important is irrelevent and disingenuous.

Except for this line, it tells us what rules to use: "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..."

Typhus tells us we can have "Plague Zombies" what are "Plague Zombies"? They are "Chaos Cultists" Cool so we look at the Chaos Cultists entry for their stats. what rules do they have "Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules" So we look up what those rules do and we find out exactly what we need to know, and we see that this sentence is not fluff.

Do the same with ...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." and you will see that does not directly reference any actual rules, so it is fluff.

Of course from a strict RAW approach there are no rules on how to even take zombies in a chaos army. We know what they are, but not how to get them. /shrug

 Happyjew wrote:
Of course from a strict RAW approach there are no rules on how to even take zombies in a chaos army. We know what they are, but not how to get them. /shrug

P.61 Codex CSM. it tells you how to get Plague Zombies

DeathReaper wrote: Do the same with ...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..." and you will see that does not directly reference any actual rules, so it is fluff.

Indeed. Do you expect you'll find "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..." listed anywhere else word-for-word either? The answer is obviously no. Yet it contains within it references to several other rules and is in itself rules text. The rule about zombies using guns follows exactly the same parameters.

There are plenty of references for what 'guns' are by the way. (there are far more of them than references to Slow and Purposeful, oddly enough)

Except that "Plague Zombies", "Chaos Cultists", Fearless", "Feel No Pain" and "Slow and Purposeful" are specific things in the book.

The same is not true with the fluff of "any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Guns, sure Death, maybe, but not for clubbing or victims.

So the entire quote is fluff, as there are not any actual rules attached to it.

'Clubbing victims to death' is a specific thing in the rulebook too, it's called 'The Assault Phase'.

Not true, DR. You change the entire rule to 'Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have special rules and cannot purchase options other than more guys' (paraphrased). Where does it tell you how to purchase zombies?

 Neorealist wrote:
'Clubbing victims to death' is a specific thing in the rulebook too, it's called 'The Assault Phase'.

Citation needed. I am not finding that phrase anywhere in the rules on the Assault Phase.

Grey Templar wrote:Citation needed. I am not finding that phrase anywhere in the rules on the Assault Phase.

Not sure if serious?
Did you even read the prior posts between deathreaper and myself?

To whit: The argument that the Assault Phase rules don't contain a literal copy of the rule in question has next-to-nothing to do with the question asked by the OP and for that matter, there aren't 'any' rules that have a literal copy of something they are referencing in them. If this is your only argument, you'll want to try to find another one that is actually valid.

 Happyjew wrote:
Not true, DR. You change the entire rule to 'Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have special rules and cannot purchase options other than more guys' (paraphrased). Where does it tell you how to purchase zombies?

P.61 Codex CSM

Typhus's rules tell you that you can nominate any "Chaos Cultist unit" to be nominated as "Plague Zombies"

It is all on P.61

Again, per the FAQ you replace the entirety.

 Happyjew wrote:
Again, per the FAQ you replace the entirety.

No you do not, you just change the wording of one sentence. The sentence that is referenced is the sentence that starts with the words "Plague zombies"

They did not say to replace the whole rule, just a change to the wording of the one sentence within the rule.

 Neorealist wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Citation needed. I am not finding that phrase anywhere in the rules on the Assault Phase.

Not sure if serious?
Did you even read the prior posts between deathreaper and myself?

To whit: The argument that the Assault Phase rules don't contain a literal copy of the rule in question has next-to-nothing to do with the question asked by the OP and for that matter, there aren't 'any' rules that have a literal copy of something they are referencing in them. If this is your only argument, you'll want to try to find another one that is actually valid.

I quoted the rules that tell you exactly what rules to use "...Plague Zombies are Chaos Cultists that have the Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules..."

That sentence is rules, as it explicitly mentions what rules the zombies have. That being the statline of Chaos Cultists, and Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful special rules.

Chaos cultists are a specific thing referenced in the rule on P. 61 and the stats for them are found on P. 38

The sentence you quoted is fluff as "...any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death..."

Plus read the whole sentence "They are armed with a single close combat weapon - any guns are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!"

Notice what "any guns" is referring to. "any guns" is referring to what the zombies are armed with. So they can not use any guns they are armed with as they "are used strictly for the purposes of clubbing their victims to death!" The context of any guns means the guns they are armed with. That is basic English.

So RAW they can use a quad gun as they are never armed with a quad gun.

My 2 perspectives

RAW, looks like they can. Not worth arguing over imo.
RAI appears they shouldn't be able to.

I still stand by this.
DR we know your stance on the RAW, how about your RAI/HIWPI?
Curious as to your stance on that. As we all know RAW vs RAI are sometimes separate paths altogether.

For me I would not let my zombies fire one.

If my opponent wanted his zombies to fire the gun emplacement I would not stop him.

That is how I would play it.