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Just as the title says. As the dust settles, I'm looking at the codex and still thinking to myself, "It can be strong, but can it be truly competitive?" I have had long discussions with veterans of the game and high-level competitors and they all seem to settle on one thing: It isn't going to compete with top tier lists. Just look at Daemons, Necrons, Grey Knights, and Space wolves. They all have extremely strong builds that can take most armies they face. But i look at Chaos and i just don't see that. There isn't a build that i see being competitive with all of the top tier.

Don't get me wrong, the chaos codex is extremely balanced, possibly more balanced than any codex i've seen. But that in itself is what makes it not truly competitive. It is good that it is balanced, but in a game where the competitive scene is seeping in spam builds, i just don't see a place for it to flourish.

Do you?

Let me know what you guys think.

I agree, there is nothing that really stands out which could take on the top tier armies.

Also I think the codex may be overshadowed by Dark Angels.

 MetalOxide wrote:
I agree, there is nothing that really stands out which could take on the top tier armies.

The codex will be overshadowed by Dark Angels.

Fixed that for you.

As numerous others have remarked, this "codex" if you can call it is merely a White Dwarf update to our "esteemed" 4th edition book. And our 4th edition book wasn't all that great. Look at the new DA book. They get WS5 Terminators that can be T5 if they're in base to base. But meanwhile we are stuck with the same stupid Terminators who can't even be Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

But nothing innovative or even out-of-the-box for this book. Every time I read about the book I dislike it a little more.

When the Dark Angels codex ends up being significantly more powerful than the Chaos book, I'm going to laugh in the faces of everyone who said that all of the 6th books were going to be balanced. Because we know that that would be too easy.

"Top tier" is not a very meaningful concept. I believe that every current Codex can field a competitive list. Chaos is no exception-- indeed, Chaos allows for a much greater diversity of lists than most people understand or expect. Where Codex: Chaos Space Marines falls down is ironically in that very diversity. The large number of upgrades and options can be overwhelming for many people and lead them to take bad choices, pile on too many upgrades, etc.

However, in the hands of an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list, Chaos Space Marines can definitely compete. They have multiple true game-changer units and extremely solid fundamentals to boot.

 Kingsley wrote:
"Top tier" is not a very meaningful concept. I believe that every current Codex can field a competitive list. Chaos is no exception-- indeed, Chaos allows for a much greater diversity of lists than most people understand or expect. Where Codex: Chaos Space Marines falls down is ironically in that very diversity. The large number of upgrades and options can be overwhelming for many people and lead them to take bad choices, pile on too many upgrades, etc.

However, in the hands of an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list, Chaos Space Marines can definitely compete. They have multiple true game-changer units and extremely solid fundamentals to boot.

"Competitive" isn't a terribly meaningful concept either especially when detached from tiers.

Where WD Updated: CSM fails is its "supposed" diversity. It's really not that diverse. It has a lot of units but many of them feel tacked on and gimmicky. Funnily enough, that's ALL of the new units.

Also any codex with " an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list" may have a little bit more success. It means nothing, especially since Chaos will lose against a Necron player who is "experienced with a solid plan."

Finally, name these game changer units and solid fundamentals. Show, don't tell.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I agree, there is nothing that really stands out which could take on the top tier armies.

The codex will be overshadowed by Dark Angels.

Fixed that for you.

As numerous others have remarked, this "codex" if you can call it is merely a White Dwarf update to our "esteemed" 4th edition book. And our 4th edition book wasn't all that great. Look at the new DA book. They get WS5 Terminators that can be T5 if they're in base to base. But meanwhile we are stuck with the same stupid Terminators who can't even be Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

But nothing innovative or even out-of-the-box for this book. Every time I read about the book I dislike it a little more.

When the Dark Angels codex ends up being significantly more powerful than the Chaos book, I'm going to laugh in the faces of everyone who said that all of the 6th books were going to be balanced. Because we know that that would be too easy.

/Thread

No really, this is exactly it. This codex is so lackluster that someone will find one power list and that list will be the only list in the CSM codex that will stand up competitively with DA or whatever. This codex is not at all exciting, and when I first read through it I was disappointed. But, the DV models look awesome.

Edit: Well, aside form the Epidemus/Plague Zombie list already in use. I'd like to be able to choose a chaos mark and have it be viable. Right now Khorne has no quick means of getting into CC, Tzeentch is overpriced, and Slaanesh is ok, but why Noise Marines get I5 when they should never be in CC is beyond me.

There is too much lacking in interesting vehicles, weapons, and abilities to make this codex good.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
"Competitive" isn't a terribly meaningful concept either especially when detached from tiers.

I disagree. IMO, only when you break the "tier" mindset can you truly evaluate competitiveness in 40k. Tier lists are for fighting games where everyone using the same characters has access to the same moveset and characteristics. 40k's extreme diversity of potential builds within individual Codices makes a tier list very difficult to establish. If you do wish to do this, it is probably more appropriate to evaluate individual builds rather than army books as a whole.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also any codex with " an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list" may have a little bit more success. It means nothing, especially since Chaos will lose against a Necron player who is "experienced with a solid plan."

Player skill generally matters more than list. Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Finally, name these game changer units and solid fundamentals. Show, don't tell.

Game changers are pretty straightforward. Most notably, cheap Bikers, Spawn, Maulerfiends, 140 point tri-las Predators, cheap HQ options, Cultists, and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax/Baleflamer all provide capabilities that other books simply don't have, though Grey Knights have a similar feature to Cultists with Coteaz mixed builds.

As for fundamentals, 13 points for an MEQ statline with a bolter is very impressive. Don't think of it as a discount Marine, though-- think of it as an upgraded Sister of Battle with increased flexibility based on upgrades. Loyalist Marines play fundamentally differently from Chaos Marines, basic stats aside.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
"Competitive" isn't a terribly meaningful concept either especially when detached from tiers.

I disagree. IMO, only when you break the "tier" mindset can you truly evaluate competitiveness in 40k. Tier lists are for fighting games where everyone using the same characters has access to the same moveset and characteristics. 40k's extreme diversity of potential builds within individual Codices makes a tier list very difficult to establish. If you do wish to do this, it is probably more appropriate to evaluate individual builds rather than army books as a whole.

So then what happens when codices A and B have several highly competitive builds because they are new and codex C has no competitive builds because it hasn't been updated for a decade? Are they not on different tiers?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also any codex with " an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list" may have a little bit more success. It means nothing, especially since Chaos will lose against a Necron player who is "experienced with a solid plan."

Player skill generally matters more than list. Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

So if one player brings "balanced" Daemons against "balanced" Grey Knights, do you think that will be even?

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Finally, name these game changer units and solid fundamentals. Show, don't tell.

Game changers are pretty straightforward. Most notably, cheap Bikers, Spawn, Maulerfiends, 140 point tri-las Predators, cheap HQ options, Cultists, and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax/Baleflamer all provide capabilities that other books simply don't have, though Grey Knights have a similar feature to Cultists with Coteaz mixed builds.

As for fundamentals, 13 points for an MEQ statline with a bolter is very impressive. Don't think of it as a discount Marine, though-- think of it as an upgraded Sister of Battle with increased flexibility based on upgrades. Loyalist Marines play fundamentally differently from Chaos Marines, basic stats aside.

Game changers are straightforward how? Cultists are overpriced compared to infantry guard, bikers and spawn can't score (but are useful), and taking a Baleflamer gives up one of the vaguely useful anti-air units Chaos has. 140pt Tri-Las predators that can only fire with all of their weapons if they stay still?

Guard have their own cultists in the form of Conscripts, and the conscripts are better since they can also get SITNW. Maulerfiends are a 125 pt AV12 vehicle and nobody says that Chimeras are hard to kill.

13 pts for a MEQ statline isn't bad but when you consider that the first 5 are 75 points, you realize that they're not truly 13 points per because they have to deal with the dead weight Champion.
And it is a discount marine. It's a poverty marine. Comparing them to C: SM, for 3 points less they lose ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and Combat Squads.
Comparing them to their old iteration, for 2 points less they lose a CCW and a point of leadership. So if you want them to be the same as their old kind, then they actually will end up more expensive.

This "codex" is basically just a stripped down poverty white dwarf update.

Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

Isnt it the other way around ? If your and your opponent skills are simiular , then the one with the more optimized list , which in the end means a codex with more possible optimiazed lists has a bigger chance to win .which end with him having more fun .

Vladsimpaler wrote:So then what happens when codices A and B have several highly competitive builds because they are new and codex C has no competitive builds because it hasn't been updated for a decade? Are they not on different tiers?

I suppose you could say that-- if that phenomenon even exists (it applies to, uhhh... maybe Eldar?)-- but really then there are two tiers, "Viable" and "Not viable." Hardly a match for the sophisticated tier lists seen in fighting games.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Player skill generally matters more than list. Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

So if one player brings "balanced" Daemons against "balanced" Grey Knights, do you think that will be even?

Yes. Both armies have what it takes to compete in 6th edition.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Cultists are overpriced compared to infantry guard

Not quite. Infantry Guard are actually underpriced to encourage their use as the army core. Cultists aren't underpriced (CSM are instead), so you get exactly what you pay for. This is a canny design move that prevents Chaos armies from becoming Cultist armies. However, it's not their merit as actual fighting units that makes Cultists good, but rather their ability to bring organic cheap objective-claiming capability to Chaos forces without Allies.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Bikers and spawn can't score (but are useful)

Vendettas can't score either.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Taking a Baleflamer gives up one of the vaguely useful anti-air units Chaos has.

This is mostly true-- it's an example of an interesting tradeoff, which is generally a sign of a well-designed book.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
140pt Tri-Las predators that can only fire with all of their weapons if they stay still?

The same goes for auto-las Predators, Long Fangs, and pretty much every multi-shot long ranged anti-tank unit in the game except for the Leman Russ Exterminator.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Maulerfiends are a 125 pt AV12 vehicle and nobody says that Chimeras are hard to kill.

Chimeras have AV10 sides and rear and lack 5++, IWND, and extreme assault speed.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
13 pts for a MEQ statline isn't bad but when you consider that the first 5 are 75 points, you realize that they're not truly 13 points per because they have to deal with the dead weight Champion.

The Champion provides leadership benefits, extra melee attacks, and can potentially become a Dæmon Prince. He's hardly "dead weight."

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
And it is a discount marine. It's a poverty marine. Comparing them to C: SM, for 3 points less they lose ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and Combat Squads. Comparing them to their old iteration, for 2 points less they lose a CCW and a point of leadership. So if you want them to be the same as their old kind, then they actually will end up more expensive.

So you use them differently and focus on pure efficiency or else some of the more unique options like cheap T5 Marines.

Vladsimpaler wrote:This "codex" is basically just a stripped down poverty white dwarf update.

In what respect? It has many new units, new concepts for old units, a greatly reworked and improved upgrade model, etc. I play loyalist Marines myself, but I really hope our next book is up to the standard set by the new Chaos Space Marines.

Makumba wrote:

Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

Isnt it the other way around ? If your and your opponent skills are simiular , then the one with the more optimized list , which in the end means a codex with more possible optimiazed lists has a bigger chance to win .which end with him having more fun .

Having a "more optimized" list is more difficult then you might think once both players are using lists that are balanced and effective for their personal style.

 Kingsley wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:So then what happens when codices A and B have several highly competitive builds because they are new and codex C has no competitive builds because it hasn't been updated for a decade? Are they not on different tiers?

I suppose you could say that-- if that phenomenon even exists (it applies to, uhhh... maybe Eldar?)-- but really then there are two tiers, "Viable" and "Not viable." Hardly a match for the sophisticated tier lists seen in fighting games.

Then we begin on a slippery slope don't we? Then certain codices are more or less viable than other codices. And when I think of not viable, I think Eldar and Black Templars.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Player skill generally matters more than list. Two players with good, balanced lists that fit their individual tactical style and skillset will likely have a fun and even match regardless of what Codexes each is using.

So if one player brings "balanced" Daemons against "balanced" Grey Knights, do you think that will be even?

Yes. Both armies have what it takes to compete in 6th edition.

But do "balanced" Daemons (read: not maxed flamers) have what it takes to fight Grey Knights in 6th? In a way you avoided my question.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Cultists are overpriced compared to infantry guard

Not quite. Infantry Guard are actually underpriced to encourage their use as the army core. Cultists aren't underpriced (CSM are instead), so you get exactly what you pay for. This is a canny design move that prevents Chaos armies from becoming Cultist armies. However, it's not their merit as actual fighting units that makes Cultists good, but rather their ability to bring organic cheap objective-claiming capability to Chaos forces without Allies.

So? Cultists are part of the army's core too. It sounds like you're moving the goalposts depending on what unit it is. So if they're overpriced, it's smart. But when you're underpriced, it's also smart?
Also Chaos Space Marines are not underpriced given that they are the poverty marines of the game. You get what you pay for, and it isn't for much.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Bikers and spawn can't score (but are useful)

Vendettas can't score either.

Uh oh. But they can also fly, transport scoring units (see what I did there?), and have 3 TL lascannon.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Taking a Baleflamer gives up one of the vaguely useful anti-air units Chaos has.

This is mostly true-- it's an example of an interesting tradeoff, which is generally a sign of a well-designed book.

Or a poorly designed one, especially for its point cost.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
140pt Tri-Las predators that can only fire with all of their weapons if they stay still?

The same goes for auto-las Predators, Long Fangs, and pretty much every multi-shot long ranged anti-tank unit in the game except for the Leman Russ Exterminator.

Except that Long Fangs don't die to a single lascannon shot and they are way less expensive. For 140 points I could have 5 long fangs and 4 missile launchers, which I guarantee will do more damage.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Maulerfiends are a 125 pt AV12 vehicle and nobody says that Chimeras are hard to kill.

Chimeras have AV10 sides and rear and lack 5++, IWND, and extreme assault speed.

Yeah and you can get 2 of them for the price of a single Gimmickfiend. Again, they're not that hard to kill and are likely to be dead before they even hit the enemy lines.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
13 pts for a MEQ statline isn't bad but when you consider that the first 5 are 75 points, you realize that they're not truly 13 points per because they have to deal with the dead weight Champion.

The Champion provides leadership benefits, extra melee attacks, and can potentially become a Dæmon Prince. He's hardly "dead weight."

He's required to accept and offer challenges. Except that he has nothing that makes him more powerful than any other marine sergeant. If he gets hit with a power sword, it's game over and there goes your sergeant. What happens when you get hit by a Terminator squad? Whoops, you have to challenge a Terminator sergeant and we know that won't end well. Again, wasted points. Unless you take Plague Marines, but then again that's all this codex is: Codex Nurgle or Go Home

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
And it is a discount marine. It's a poverty marine. Comparing them to C: SM, for 3 points less they lose ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and Combat Squads. Comparing them to their old iteration, for 2 points less they lose a CCW and a point of leadership. So if you want them to be the same as their old kind, then they actually will end up more expensive.

So you use them differently and focus on pure efficiency or else some of the more unique options like cheap T5 Marines.

Oh yeah! I forgot, I always call this codex: Nurgle or go home, and it looks like I am proved right once again. And pure efficiency means nothing when you fail a LD check and get swept.

Vladsimpaler wrote:This "codex" is basically just a stripped down poverty white dwarf update.

In what respect? It has many new units, new concepts for old units, a greatly reworked and improved upgrade model, etc. I play loyalist Marines myself, but I really hope our next book is up to the standard set by the new Chaos Space Marines.

Many new units, aka a bunch of random units that weren't needed and didn't do anything to fix the problem of the 4th edition book. And look at the Thousand Sons from now to the ones in 4th. They were basically copy-pasted over. The same goes for Plague Marines.

Also if your book is set to the same "standard", all I will say is that I am glad that I don't play Imperial Space Marines too because that would really suck. Have fun with an underwhelming update that just says "buy our new models".

With regards to the longfang vs tri-las predator comparison:

You say that the predator dies to one lascannon blast. That's possible, but unlikely in the extreme. Each HIT with a lascannon has a 1/9 chance of popping the tank outright against front armor. By comparison, 5 longfangs with 4 MLs will statistically die to 6 lascannon hits. If we're talking hull points, it will take 6 lascannon hits to strip the predator's 3 HP. The predator is actually more durable against anything weaker than a lascannon, and packs 3 lascannons, which is not necessarily better or worse than 4 missile launchers, especially ones that lack flakk missiles.

Vlad, I think at this point it's clear that we have very different perspectives on what is and isn't strong and this discussion isn't going to be very productive.

Babel_Triumphant wrote:You say that the predator dies to one lascannon blast. That's possible, but unlikely in the extreme. Each HIT with a lascannon has a 1/9 chance of popping the tank outright against front armor. By comparison, 5 longfangs with 4 MLs will statistically die to 6 lascannon hits. If we're talking hull points, it will take 6 lascannon hits to strip the predator's 3 HP. The predator is actually more durable against anything weaker than a lascannon, and packs 3 lascannons, which is not necessarily better or worse than 4 missile launchers, especially ones that lack flakk missiles.

Agreed on all points. I actually think that Long Fangs are inferior to auto/las Predators even within the context of Codex: Space Wolves. Missile launchers have suffered drastically in the 6th edition 40k environment.

Babel_Triumphant wrote:With regards to the longfang vs tri-las predator comparison:

You say that the predator dies to one lascannon blast. That's possible, but unlikely in the extreme. Each HIT with a lascannon has a 1/9 chance of popping the tank outright against front armor. By comparison, 5 longfangs with 4 MLs will statistically die to 6 lascannon hits. If we're talking hull points, it will take 6 lascannon hits to strip the predator's 3 HP. The predator is actually more durable against anything weaker than a lascannon, and packs 3 lascannons, which is not necessarily better or worse than 4 missile launchers, especially ones that lack flakk missiles.

So first off, it "statistically" will take the same amount. But also we're not including the fact that Predators can be shaken, stunned, become immobilized, lose weapons, etc. Yes, Long Fangs can fail morale but they'll be back next turn due to ATSKNF.

Kingsley wrote:Vlad, I think at this point it's clear that we have very different perspectives on what is and isn't strong and this discussion isn't going to be very productive.

Why not? It's interesting to see opposing viewpoints and weigh them, then again I'm studying to become a lawyer haha
However if you don't want to continue, that's fine with me, I'm just gonna go make some food and catch up on Fringe.

In any case, was fun chatting. Have a good one.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
I agree, there is nothing that really stands out which could take on the top tier armies.

The codex will be overshadowed by Dark Angels.

Fixed that for you.

As numerous others have remarked, this "codex" if you can call it is merely a White Dwarf update to our "esteemed" 4th edition book. And our 4th edition book wasn't all that great. Look at the new DA book. They get WS5 Terminators that can be T5 if they're in base to base. But meanwhile we are stuck with the same stupid Terminators who can't even be Berzerkers or Plague Marines.

But nothing innovative or even out-of-the-box for this book. Every time I read about the book I dislike it a little more.

When the Dark Angels codex ends up being significantly more powerful than the Chaos book, I'm going to laugh in the faces of everyone who said that all of the 6th books were going to be balanced. Because we know that that would be too easy.

I agree with everything you said, my Chaos army has been shelved for now.

I actually find the csm's codex to be really interesting ,with excellent diversity and both internal,external balance.The main reason that i find it competitive though its the fact that more than 50% of armies in a tournament will be marine ones and this book just murders marine armies.If the meta was full of orks,de or nids,horde ig, i think the csm would not stand a chance as it lacks anti-horde options,but as nearly everyone plays sw,gk or ba all you need to do is pack some template ap 3 weapons(helldrake always needs to be equiped with baleflamer).


Imo the best units of the codex are:Helldrake,obliderators,havocs,vindicator(now that i think about it a pair of those solves the horde,termie probs too),bikes,spawns.

While many insist that nurgle is the only viable option i disagree.Although that plague marines are the best troop choice in the codex you need to pay the nurgle lord tax to acquire them,who is pretty useless.Noise marines,blobs with mark of khorne marines are both useful and their lords are excellent.Cheap cultists are also good.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Babel_Triumphant wrote:With regards to the longfang vs tri-las predator comparison:

You say that the predator dies to one lascannon blast. That's possible, but unlikely in the extreme. Each HIT with a lascannon has a 1/9 chance of popping the tank outright against front armor. By comparison, 5 longfangs with 4 MLs will statistically die to 6 lascannon hits. If we're talking hull points, it will take 6 lascannon hits to strip the predator's 3 HP. The predator is actually more durable against anything weaker than a lascannon, and packs 3 lascannons, which is not necessarily better or worse than 4 missile launchers, especially ones that lack flakk missiles.

So first off, it "statistically" will take the same amount. But also we're not including the fact that Predators can be shaken, stunned, become immobilized, lose weapons, etc. Yes, Long Fangs can fail morale but they'll be back next turn due to ATSKNF.

Long Fangs, on the other hand, aren't immune to small-arms fire (and yes, I know, rear armour 10) and lose firepower as they die. Sure, you can get weapon destroyed results on a Pred, but it's not as bad as for the Fangs.

As I see it, external game balance is shifted every time new codex comes out. I'm certainly hope that for DA or later Tau codices will bring freshness and balance into the game.

What do I mean by that, is, for example Tau could get weapon/unit/smth which especially effective against for example necron airforce spam and thus, necrons would be forced to adapt, thus making it easier on other armies.
Same thing thing could happen with BA and screamers flamers for example. At least it is a good way to fix in game balance problems for developers.
But we always have to take in mind marketing projects (lets make least bought unit in codex best in his field area and vualua $$$).

I think the Chaos Space Marines Codex is very competitive...

















FOR ME TO POOP ON!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I think the Chaos Space Marines Codex is a very nice codex...




FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Fixed.

Do I think a CSM list could do well in a GT? Yes. Therefore competitive. Do I think that there are other codices that would do better across the board? Yes. Do I think we'll see GTs won by pure CSM lists? No.

However, in the hands of an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list, Chaos Space Marines can definitely compete.

If you're talking about whether or not a codex is or can be competitive based on its own merits and you have to start your sentence off with "In the hands of an experienced player ..." then there is already an issue. While I think this codex has the potential to at least keep you "in the game" against many opponents, you actually NEED to be an experienced player to pick the correct list to do that. The codex has so many internal "traps" for the person using it that you have be very careful not to fall into them. So if you're an experienced player, I would agree that this book can at least keep you from getting tabled on turn three in most games. I guess that can be considered as "competitive, but that's not saying much.

They have multiple true game-changer units and extremely solid fundamentals to boot.

Necron Flying Circus, Draigowing and BA deep striking Land Raiders are all clear cut examples of game changing units. Please name one single item from this codex that can even remotely be considered in the same sentence as those units. I'm not sure you have a full appreciation of the term "Game Changer".

As to the "solid fundamentals" point. Again, please name one. This is the first codex I've seen that regularly penalizes its own player. I HAVE to accept challenges but my seargent equivalents have absolutely nothing that's going to make them decent at said challenges unless I spend an inordinant amount of points to upgrade a throw-away character? How is that "sound mechanics". To me it just seems like a
ham-fisted way to force me to use the new Boon table they made up.

As another example, let's look at two of the new units. Warp Talons and Mutilators. Being that 6th ed. is an edition in which shooting has gotten much more powerfull while deep striking and close combat have received over-all nerfs, you would expect that we would get more shooty units like the Forge Fiend (which in my experience so far is tremendously over-costed) right? Nope. Good old Phil Kelly gave us two close combat based units that rely on deepstriking to get to grips with the enemy. The Warp Talons are especially bad imo. In an edition where you can no longer charge into cc on the turn you arrive by deep strike and in a codex where we have only ONE extremely wonky and unreliable tool to prevent scatter, we are given a unit with a special ability that relies on not scattering when they deep strike. All in order to get into cc on the turn AFTER they arrive. WTF. Thanks Phil. This unit would have kicked serious arse in the PREVIOUS TWO EDITIONS of the game. They are totally out of place here. Again, "sound mechanics"?

Finally, as others have already pointed out, our Troops section took a large hit as well. Cultists are too expensive any way you look at them. Your point about them being costed that way to prevent us from taking huge armies of cultists is silly and reaching at best. Multiple other armies can already take massive amounts of cheap troops in this manner. Why would Chaos not be able to? Especially when there are MULTIPLE fluff examples to back it up. The Marines are even worse imo. We do NOT as you say "have an MEQ statline". Our leadership was lowered by a point just so they could write a rule that would cost us two points per model to get it BACK to an MEQ statline. We have no equivalent of the ATSKNF special rule and we lost a CCW that we now also have to pay extra for to get back. By the time you are done getting the marines of this codex back to what they use to be and even close to being equal to a real marine they are now MORE expensive and still not equal. And that's before real upgrades.

Chaos allows for a much greater diversity of lists than most people understand or expect. Where Codex: Chaos Space Marines falls down is ironically in that very diversity. The large number of upgrades and options can be overwhelming for many people and lead them to take bad choices, pile on too many upgrades, etc.

Chaos does indeed allow for a lot of diverse lists. Unfortunately, the way the book is set up causes these to be a lot of one trick ponies. Additionally, since the lists are all so different from one another, and since most of the lists you make in this new book are NOT compatable with one another, this means that once your opponent has figured out how to stop the one thing your current list is good at, you now need to go buy more models to make a new list instead of gently tweaking the one you have.

As I see it, external game balance is shifted every time new codex comes out. I'm certainly hope that for DA or later Tau codices will bring freshness and balance into the game.

What do I mean by that, is, for example Tau could get weapon/unit/smth which especially effective against for example necron airforce spam and thus, necrons would be forced to adapt, thus making it easier on other armies.
Same thing thing could happen with BA and screamers flamers for example. At least it is a good way to fix in game balance problems for developers.
But we always have to take in mind marketing projects (lets make least bought unit in codex best in his field area and vualua $$$).

That's the real crux of it. What you describe is probably how things should work, but that didn't happen here. What did this new codex bring to the meta that really changed anything? The closest I can get is Epidemius/Plague Marine combo but even that is really more of a mild annoyance than anything. It has barely made a ripple. I've seen this book cause more amries to be shelved than anything.

TL/DR

If you're an experienced or very good player this codex has the tools to at least keep you "in the game" against many opponents. That's as close as it will ever get to being "Competitive" imo.

Its name is helldrake and it is far more game breaking than your little draigowing and deep striking land raiders(i nearly cried at that one).

Its name is helldrake and it is far more game breaking than your little draigowing and deep striking land raiders(i nearly cried at that one).

I don't get that response. It can't be spammed like Cron air or IG Vendettas, and it doesn't have the armour, hitting power, or transport capacity of the Storm Raven, and it lacks the sheer output of rounds of the Dakkajet. Don't get me wrong, it IS a very good unit (probably in the top 3 in the codex imo) and it IS a decent flier (Vector Strike is excellent), but at least in my area I really haven't seen it be that much of an issue unless someone has brought a list that cannot deal with fliers at all. In which case they would have issues with anything. So far, compared to many of the other fliers it's not even in the top 3 or 4 imo. So I think it's a good unit but certainly not any more powerful than any of the other fliers.

What about it has been giving you issue (serious question - no sarcasm or condecesending tone intended)?

 Kingsley wrote:
"Top tier" is not a very meaningful concept. I believe that every current Codex can field a competitive list. Chaos is no exception-- indeed, Chaos allows for a much greater diversity of lists than most people understand or expect. Where Codex: Chaos Space Marines falls down is ironically in that very diversity. The large number of upgrades and options can be overwhelming for many people and lead them to take bad choices, pile on too many upgrades, etc.

However, in the hands of an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list, Chaos Space Marines can definitely compete. They have multiple true game-changer units and extremely solid fundamentals to boot.

my thoughts exactly

I don't understand why people want competitive codex's, I mean yeah there isn't that much the CSM is over the top with but it is balanced, and that suits me just fine I mean the aim of the game is to have fun not to win 24/7 (that would be boring ) so I think it makes an interesting challenge to find lists that arnt the same old "Top tier" spam over and over again, and its also nice with the CSM codex that there is a lot of variety of units so no "competitive" list is the same which is also nice for your opponent as it could give them a fresh challenge with each chaos list you or other opponents make which makes them want to adapt their own lists and tactics maybe...

 DarkWind wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
"Top tier" is not a very meaningful concept. I believe that every current Codex can field a competitive list. Chaos is no exception-- indeed, Chaos allows for a much greater diversity of lists than most people understand or expect. Where Codex: Chaos Space Marines falls down is ironically in that very diversity. The large number of upgrades and options can be overwhelming for many people and lead them to take bad choices, pile on too many upgrades, etc.

However, in the hands of an experienced player with a solid plan and a balanced list, Chaos Space Marines can definitely compete. They have multiple true game-changer units and extremely solid fundamentals to boot.

my thoughts exactly

Yeah, I see spawn, juggerlords, helldrakes, CSM, bikes, rhinos, and some named characters as being very strong.

Defilers, Vindicators, obliterators, DPs with Maces, Havocs, Raptors, and terminators all do well but suffer in power for their points. Used by capable hands, they'll easily make their points back most games.

Possessed, Chosen, mutilators, fiends, warp talons, LR, etc struggle to be competitive.

I enjoyed this thread, I believe that the codex is poor and my chaos marines will be sitting out this time around.

I think the white dwarf comments are fair and I also agree that when dark angels hits it will all become clear that the codex is a steaming pile of dog poop.

Also space zoids and space dinobot swoop are also comical as sin and in my opinion some of the worst that gw have ever put out.....

Well we should see a new csm codex by 2018 let's hope it's an improvement.....well it couldn't possibly be any worse

There is nothing "poor" about it.

Its a solid book and will prolly stay that way for a good time.

There are a ton of options with most of them being good.

You can run any sort of fluffy army as well.

Any legion you would like to play as or mono god list you want to run you can with ease and it still do well.

The issue isnt the chaos book. Its those other OP top tier books.

Is the chaos book broken like how some of the other books are? no? but will it be able to still put up a good fight with out having to cheese out?! yep!

Its a good book and its fun to use and its fun to play against.


You can say the DA book is going to overshadow it. Is it possible? Yes.

But its hard to say when NONE of us have had the book in our hand to see what is true and false rumor wise as well as points.

Well in my opinion the book is poor, I just can't get excited about it......I understand other people have differing views and I respect that.

Maybe you feel you can do the fluff justice with the book, but for me it doesn't work. I have been into chaos marines since rogue trader days and i like it less and less each time I look at it.

I am lucky that I have a few more large armies so I will crack on with them until we get a new book.

I think time will prove me right, first with dark angels and then as we move forward it will be a mid tier army at best.

In closing the post i would finally add I was never looking to power game or put some filth together......I just wanted warp smiths and dark apostles as elites (like sang priests), some legion specific rules and characters and some opportunities similar to codex marines where you can unlock things by taking a lord on bike for example. These type of codex's are the best in my opinion as they offer something for everyone.....just my opinion anyway

The CSM's codex is competitive. If people dont find it competitive, that mean the SM codex isnt competite. CSM codex and SM codex are now good twin bad twin. All you need is having a lot of CSM and avoid mutilator, raptor and spawn.

For myself, if find it more boring than the 4 and 5 ed and I saw most of CSM player played Plague marines.