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Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Richmond, VA

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

I didn't want a Mat Ward facemelter. I wanted a codex that didn't read like a minor edited copypasta from 4th edition.


Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Out of the book, only the warp talons are really slated for the "bad" choice of the book, but even then with the MOT, they are a cheap, 4+ invul MEQ killing machine that has a chance to screw over the enemy for a turn. They however get hated because "OMG can't guarantee!", a problem WAAC players have, they don't like taking chances.

Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.

 Peregrine wrote:
SCREEE I'M A SEAGULL SCREE SCREEEE!!!!!
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 juraigamer wrote:


Can't have your cake and eat it too.


SW kind of a did . they kept all the cool stuff from their old dex , got stuffed buffed up by a lot[fangs] and then got sprinkled with special rules for stuff they never had[wolf totem , rune staff , jaws etc].
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 juraigamer wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:

I didn't want a Mat Ward facemelter. I wanted a codex that didn't read like a minor edited copypasta from 4th edition.


Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Out of the book, only the warp talons are really slated for the "bad" choice of the book, but even then with the MOT, they are a cheap, 4+ invul MEQ killing machine that has a chance to screw over the enemy for a turn. They however get hated because "OMG can't guarantee!", a problem WAAC players have, they don't like taking chances.



Explain your logic here. Why can't I "have cake and eat it too"? Is there something that prevents me from having a fun codex that isn't just a blatant copypasta?
That's some sad state of affairs.

Also strawmans, strawmans everywhere. Apparently I am now a WAAC player. How about the fact that they're 30 point MEQ that has to get into combat, which we all know has been significantly weakened in this edition? If I wanted a cheap MEQ killing machine I would take Marbo. Costs the same as 2 Warp Talons but can nuke any target with pinpoint precision and he still has enough tricks up his sleeve to be useful.

Now -that- is a gamechanger.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/31 20:00:19


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre





Richmond, VA

Because the codex is fun to play? It's called an opinion, people have them.

Desert Hunters of Vior'la The Purge Iron Hands Adepts of Pestilence Tallaran Desert Raiders Grey Knight Teleport Assault Force
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Seems to me that you should be refereeing and handing out red cards--like a boss.

 Peregrine wrote:
SCREEE I'M A SEAGULL SCREE SCREEEE!!!!!
 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 juraigamer wrote:
Because the codex is fun to play?


Really? Over here, CSM players usually have pain, and not fun. For example, our Khorne player jumped back to BA/SW after a few try with a full-Khorne CSM army, because he lost most of his matches with it. He simply claimed that Khorne has no fun with the CSM codex, and he had no taste for Nurgle, so he simply left for a codex combination what is fun to play.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sheffield / Oxford

 AtoMaki wrote:
 juraigamer wrote:
Because the codex is fun to play?


Really? Over here, CSM players usually have pain, and not fun. For example, our Khorne player jumped back to BA/SW after a few try with a full-Khorne CSM army, because he lost most of his matches with it. He simply claimed that Khorne has no fun with the CSM codex, and he had no taste for Nurgle, so he simply left for a codex combination what is fun to play.

Did he have any shooting in this all Khorne army? Because if you don't have any shooting it is often very difficult to win in this edition. We've had a lot of people dusting off their Chaos armies since the new book, including me, to try out the new rules. I for one am really enjoying the new book.

-Tom Leighton
- Ireland ETC - Eldar - 2016

-Former 17 year old intro welcomer for dank post count. Pls forgive me <3 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Rampage wrote:

Did he have any shooting in this all Khorne army? Because if you don't have any shooting it is often very difficult to win in this edition. We've had a lot of people dusting off their Chaos armies since the new book, including me, to try out the new rules. I for one am really enjoying the new book.


he plays khorne, and he wants to be true to the Blood God, so he only brings minimal ammount of shooting. And yes, that's a problem. With the CSM. Oddly enough, with BA/SW, he is fairly successful with even less shooting that he had with CSM.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 AtoMaki wrote:
 Rampage wrote:

Did he have any shooting in this all Khorne army? Because if you don't have any shooting it is often very difficult to win in this edition. We've had a lot of people dusting off their Chaos armies since the new book, including me, to try out the new rules. I for one am really enjoying the new book.


he plays khorne, and he wants to be true to the Blood God, so he only brings minimal ammount of shooting. And yes, that's a problem. With the CSM. Oddly enough, with BA/SW, he is fairly successful with even less shooting that he had with CSM.


Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, a heavy shooting-list with Khorne-focus isn't unfluffy.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, a heavy shooting-list with Khorne-focus isn't unfluffy.


Yeah, but where would you put the Khorne marks there? And what about the 'zerkers? We actually tried to make a shooty Khorne list, but then we realized that we did the Nurgle All Stars configuration without the 'Nurgle' part, so we kinda' give up .

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 AtoMaki wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, a heavy shooting-list with Khorne-focus isn't unfluffy.


Yeah, but where would you put the Khorne marks there? And what about the 'zerkers? We actually tried to make a shooty Khorne list, but then we realized that we did the Nurgle All Stars configuration without the 'Nurgle' part, so we kinda' give up .


Why does the unit have to have MoK to worship Khorne?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Why does the unit have to have MoK to worship Khorne?


Because that's what shows that the unit worships Khorne? Without MoK, they could worship anyone, or they could be Alpha Legion infiltrators or anything...

Also, why should he give up a game style he likes? If he could do it, then he gives everyone MoK, and brings 8 strong squads. And he loves close-combat, and dislikes shooting. Now what?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/31 22:14:23


My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in us
Twisting Tzeentch Horror





Morgan Hill, CA

I don't like the way Tau or IG play so I don't play them. But I don't feel the need to start threads about it. I just play what I enjoy. Which in this case happens to be CSM.

I'm kind of glad it's not the "new hotness" in a way. Get off my lawn you damn kids!

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sheffield / Oxford

 AtoMaki wrote:
 Rampage wrote:

Did he have any shooting in this all Khorne army? Because if you don't have any shooting it is often very difficult to win in this edition. We've had a lot of people dusting off their Chaos armies since the new book, including me, to try out the new rules. I for one am really enjoying the new book.


he plays khorne, and he wants to be true to the Blood God, so he only brings minimal ammount of shooting. And yes, that's a problem. With the CSM. Oddly enough, with BA/SW, he is fairly successful with even less shooting that he had with CSM.

Ah ok, that's interesting. I'm guessing he's using a degree if speed and or heavy durability then.

-Tom Leighton
- Ireland ETC - Eldar - 2016

-Former 17 year old intro welcomer for dank post count. Pls forgive me <3 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 cvtuttle wrote:
I don't like the way Tau or IG play so I don't play them. But I don't feel the need to start threads about it. I just play what I enjoy. Which in this case happens to be CSM.

I'm kind of glad it's not the "new hotness" in a way. Get off my lawn you damn kids!


yeah but in general chaos players would like to play chaos , only they dont like the dex. Tau or IG at least have the luxury of being the only codex with same game play. chaos players always have to look at SW and ask themselfs , if playing the same army but with worse rules in general , but drakes is worth it.
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Rampage wrote:

Ah ok, that's interesting. I'm guessing he's using a degree if speed and or heavy durability then.


He uses Thunderwolf Cavalry (Jugger riders) and Death Company (Berzerkers). In every fourth full moon, he brings Storm Ravens and/or Land Raiders too.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/31 22:28:34


My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sheffield / Oxford

Haha, that's a cool idea. And yeah, pretty durable and speedy.

-Tom Leighton
- Ireland ETC - Eldar - 2016

-Former 17 year old intro welcomer for dank post count. Pls forgive me <3 
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 juraigamer wrote:
Because the codex is fun to play? It's called an opinion, people have them.


Being "fun" is certainly subjective, because my games with this WD update weren't fun at all. Oh great, I have to sacrifice my sergeants. Nobody says that Marine sergeants are close combat monsters. We have no benefits for challenging.

In Fantasy, WoC always have to challenge/accept challenges. However, in Fantasy WoC have insane stats that rival lower level heroes from other armies. That makes it worth it. In 40k, we have nothing like that. My Aspiring Champion is the exact same as your Tactical Marine sergeant. But the difference is that mine has to challenge.

Also don't pretend that having an opinion protects you because it doesn't.

I should also note that I am a Khorne player and I hate the fact that for like 3 editions in a row, I am penalized for taking stuff other than assault troops. It's like the authors don't even know how to read.

"Oh but Mark of Nurgle is great!" Yeah that's fantastic-if I played Nurgle. But I don't. I'm not denying that parts of the codex are useful, but not if you play Khorne. For combat troops, Mark of Slaanesh is better and costs the same.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/31 23:52:08


 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

I made this post originally elsewhere, but feel it's appropriate here in response to the "it's a balanced book, only WAAC gamers don't like it!/Don't you wish Mat Ward wrote it?" posts.



There seems to be a lot missing when people are saying "No, the Chaos book is fine" in response to "the Chaos book feels like a letdown".

Yes there's, the power level, and the biggest concern there is if it's going to face the same thing the last CSM book did, which is to see a dramatic about-face in design methodology soon after its release, thus leaving the book sitting around in an awkward state where you can take another book and build a nearly identical army but have more, and more capable, units. Anyone running an undivided CSM army with the last book had little reason *NOT* to use Codex: Space Wolves.

But, that aside, the book feels...phoned in. It doesn't really feel like a 6th edition book at all.

One can look at the Necron book, taking points costs out of it entirely, and see an army much better built to the mechanics and play of 6th edition. It adapts much better to the paradigm of constant Night Fight, of Hull Points, and Flyers. The CSM book basically just bolts on some 6E USR's in places (often simply for their own sake, like Berzerkers losing an attack just for Rage and Counterattack). Even aside from that, it's still very much built around a 4th edition game paradigm, lots of big heavy CC units trying to consolidate from combat to combat when such mechanics no longer function like that.

On top of that, most of the problems of the previous book still exist, and in some cases were exacerbated. Defliers weren't exactly at the top of anyone's "must take" list in the last edition, they were rarely seen as useful investments for their cost, yet now, despite being significantly easier to kill in the 6th edition environment and not significantly more capable in inflicting damage to the enemy, they get hit with a 33% *INCREASE* in cost...why? Same thing with Land Raiders, they were never particularly good, and are easier to engage in 6th along with assault being further mitigated, and they got hit with a price increase. Thousand Sons got very minorly buffed with free VotLW, but remain too expensive to use outside of expressly thematic armies. Tzeentch as a whole got hit...hard. It was never really considered a good upgrade in the last edition but now the invul save it grants went from 5+ to 6+ and it's largely more expensive.

We still have the problem of cult "troops" having more "gifts/benefits" than their Lords and Elites. Plague Marines have FNP, poisoned weapons and Blight Grenades, but Plague Lords and Plague Terminators have no access to such. Noise Marines have access to sonic weapons but we have no Noise Havocs or Noise Predators. Why do "troop" Berzerkers have WS5 but the Terminator elite do not? Where is the option for S&P Inferno Bolt Rubric Terminators and Tzeentchian Psychic Dreads?

This book did nothing to address the issues of theme and feel of the last one. It still feels like "spiky marines" in many respects, and reading it I do not get the same feel of the Chaos Space Marines being the ancient dread enemy of the Imperium that shed their blood to build it and now have sold their souls to destroy it. It does not eel like the full expose of the myriad and diverse powers of Chaos in all their dark glory...but rather like "Chaos Shareware"

In essence, it feels like we were sold a $50 white dwarf update that just jiggered some costs and added a couple new daemon engines, and didn't really address many of the big problems with the previous book well or at all, while also failing to truly bring the Chaos Space Marines into 6th edition.



IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
 
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