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So there seems to be some... discontent with the new CSM codex, with people saying everything from "it's fine" to " its a white dwarf update." I'm with the latter crowd, so I'm starting this thread to see what we can come up with the make the new codex suck less and hopefully be more interesting with fewer overcosted units.

Here's a few to start:
Mutilators - WS5
Berzerkers - base attacks to 3
Thousand Sons - reduce point cost to 21 ppm
Plague Marines - reduce cost to 22 ppm

 McNinja wrote:

Plague Marines - reduce cost to 22 ppm

Plague Marines are already the best cult troop (there is an argument for Plague Marines with a MoN Lord being the best troops choice in the codex), they don't need more of a bonus.

Do you really believe berzerkers need 6 attacks on the charge 7 with the champion.

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:
Do you really believe berzerkers need 6 attacks on the charge 7 with the champion.

Yup after all they are axe-wielding maniacs

 happygolucky wrote:

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:
Do you really believe berzerkers need 6 attacks on the charge 7 with the champion.

Yup after all they are axe-wielding maniacs

Yeah, Bezerkers couldn't put out all of those attacks, they'd need a large point increase.

 blood reaper wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:
Do you really believe berzerkers need 6 attacks on the charge 7 with the champion.

Yup after all they are axe-wielding maniacs

Yeah, Bezerkers couldn't put out all of those attacks, they'd need a large point increase.

But... but... I thought we were trying to break the codex here ...

On a serious not give vehicles marks but make them benefit the vehicles instead of giving them the one already out for the infantry...

We are trying to improve it, not add another Death Company clone to the game.

As a chaos player im very happy with the codex and frankly think its very good as is. Those that think it "sucks" haven't taken a very good look imo.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
As a chaos player im very happy with the codex and frankly think its very good as is. Those that think it "sucks" haven't taken a very good look imo.

I've had a good look, wouldn't say it's terrible, just not the best.

By not the best i assume you mean not "OMAGAWD" overpowered like some certain other armies we've seen recently which i myself like just because we arnt super overpowered by no means means that we cant be competitive!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
By not the best i assume you mean not "OMAGAWD" overpowered like some certain other armies we've seen recently which i myself like just because we arnt super overpowered by no means means that we cant be competitive!

No, allot seems over costed, little variety and no "generic" Daemon Weapon.

My list:
- Abaddon: +1 S, Sigil of Corruption, cost increase to 285 points
- Huron: he is kinda' cool
- Kharn: good, no changes
- Ahriman: access to Divination instead of Biomancy
- Typhus: good, no changes
- Lucius. +1 WS
- Fabius: may enhance any non-vehicle unit, not just CSMs
- Chaos Lord: good, no changes
- Sorcerer: good, no changes
- Daemon Prince: Eternal Warrior, purchases Marks instead of "Deamon of X"
- Warpsmith: 4 strong Servitor escort, xcan repair through Servitors, Shatter Defences can affect any kind of terrain, not just ruins
- Dark Apostle: option for Terminator Armour, Daemonic Steeds and Special Issue Wargear, I loved the "enhance Mark effects" rumour, so some rule for that would be uber-cool

- Chaos Sapce Marines: good, no changes
- Cultists: Infiltrate, option for Sniper Rifles, upgrade to be either full-psykers OR mutants

- Chosen: good, no changes - maybe +1 BS and WS for a +4 points increase
- Possessed: -2 ppm, MoT costs only 4 ppm
- Terminators: Reaper Autocannon cost decreased to 20 ppm, Marks cost the same as for Possessed
- Helbrute: Rampage, moar ranged weapon options
- Mutilators: 50 ppm, may be taken in units of 1-10 models, Marks cost the same as for Possessed
- Khorne Berzerkers: Fleet, Rage, Counter-Attack
- Thousand Sons: Relentless instead of Slow and Purposeful, Inferno Bolts have Fleshbane, option for Heavy Bolter w/Inferno Bolts
- Plague Marines: good, no changes
- Noise Marines: Sonic Balsters cost 2 ppm, option to have both Sonic Blasters and CCW, one Blastmaster for each 6 models
- Cult Terminators: just include them
- God-specific Daemon Engines (Blight Drones, Blood Slaughterer, Hell Knight, Warp Cobra): just include them

- Rhino: good, no changes
- Dreadclaw: just include it

- Chaos Bikers: good, no changes
- Chaos Spawns: good, no changes
- Raptors: Hit and Run
- Warp Talons: Frag/Krak Grenades, Heroic Intervention instead of Warpflame Strike, option for Icons
- Heldrake: cost reduction to 150 points, Baleflamer upgrade costs +20 points

- Havocs: Flakk missiles are free
- Obliterators: good, no changes
- Defiler: cost reduction to 150 points
- Forgefiend: cost reduction to 160 points
- Maulerfiend: good, no changes
- Land Raider: cost reduction to 210 points, increase transport capacity to 12 models
- Land Raider Deathfire: sponson dual TL heavy flamers, front reaper autocannon, transport capacity 18 models, 230 points
- Vindicator: good, no changes
- Predator: good, no changes

- Marks: Nurgle and Slaanesh are OK, Khorne gives +1 A instead of Rage/CA, Tzeentch gives 5+ invu
- Undivided Marks and Icons: just include them
- Vehicle Marks: these would be cool

- Reaper Autocannon: Heavy 4 instead of Heavy 2
- More Artefacts (including generic Daemon weapons)

The last FAQ for the Chaos Marines fourth edition codex had some nice rules for Daemon Weapons, cost making them balanced and fun.

I think that just because its not OP does not mean that i should be buffed. I understand where you are coming from, but lets face, a game where every codex is GK or BA would be no fun. 40k is a game about to massive army's clashing in the far future, not a couple ultra-heroic hero's fighting it out. People say that the way to balance the game would be to buff everyone, but imagine if orks or guard were like GK. It would ruin the feel of the game if you had 20 guards men running around the field, blasting off headshots with their hand held earthshaker cannons. I understand your frustration with playing against those ass holes who don't give a gak about how much their opponent enjoys the game as he stomps with his 20 shittily painted models, but its not the way to fix the game. As the British say, stiff upper lip and hopefully games work shop will stop making bull gak codex's. This is all my opinion, as is just about everything on a forum, but keep it in mind.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
By not the best i assume you mean not "OMAGAWD" overpowered like some certain other armies we've seen recently which i myself like just because we arnt super overpowered by no means means that we cant be competitive!

Actually, if you have the 3rd edition codex, compare it and the 6th edition one, this new one is really lacking. 3rd edition had so much more interesting things, like the kai gun, but this one is so plain it's actually kind of sad. I mean, there's one dedicated transport. One. Two if you count the 260 point Land Raider, but that's not really viable in a 1500 point list. Granted, you have to specialize units, but I feel like this codex is going to look so meager after the new DA codex comes out. So far, they have new Terminators, a new LS, two new flyers, and new plasma weaponry, and that's just what I've seen from the leaked WD stuff.

It's also the fact that nothing can take plasma cannons in the new CSM codex, just plasma guns, or that ectoplasm cannons can only be on Forgefiends. Really, it's just the lack of cool stuff (weapons/equipment and units) that makes this codex seem lackluster.

And i bet the new DA wont have ectoplasm guns bale flamers burning brands daemonic steeds hades autocannons chainaxes boons of mutation icons marks autocannons on marines for that matter we got plenty of new units forge fiends mauler fiends helldrakes warpsmith dark apostles warp talons. You just seem dissapointed because were the first codex in a while that didnt get a or feel like acomplete overhaul.


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and also i doubt that there new terminators will be as cheap or customisable as ours

I didn't want op......just some way of unlocking raptors as troops or bikers as troops. Maybe some night lord / iron warrior / word bearer / alpha legion special characters or legion specific rules.

I will be sitting this chaos codex out, it's not for me. My kr multicases will protect them until 2017 when I hope we will finally get something of merit.

Hope forgeworld do something more specific when the remaining two chaos gods get some love in late 2013 / 14.......lets hope eh?

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
As a chaos player im very happy with the codex and frankly think its very good as is. Those that think it "sucks" haven't taken a very good look imo.

I agree with this however I am frustrated with no deathclaw drop pod (I wanted drop pods for CSM sice the plastic kit was released) I think they should have added that into the codex...

Also Combat Servitors for the Warpsmith... just because that would look cool

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
And i bet the new DA wont have ectoplasm guns bale flamers burning brands daemonic steeds hades autocannons chainaxes boons of mutation icons marks autocannons on marines for that matter we got plenty of new units forge fiends mauler fiends helldrakes warpsmith dark apostles warp talons. You just seem dissapointed because were the first codex in a while that didnt get a or feel like acomplete overhaul.


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and also i doubt that there new terminators will be as cheap or customisable as ours

First, use punctuation. Two, no, their terminators will be stronger and better with more options for better weapons. It's the Dark Angels and their Deathwing. No one wanted a complete overhaul, we just want something substantial with properly priced units. As it is, 10 unmarked terminators with no additional options is 312 points. Plus, say, Mark of Nurgle, and god forbid you want two Reaper Acs in that unit, and it comes out to well over 400 points. That's not including GoM on the champion, Icon of Despair, or any other additional weapons like Lightning claws or combi-weapons.

And Ectoplasm, Baleflamers, and hades Autocannons can only be taken by 1 or 2 new units. Oh, and I correct myself, only the Helbrute can take a Plasma cannon. Wooo. I also will go ahead and assume their units will be priced better than ours.

And for another thing, is a 25 point upgrade to a Skyfire option on havocs supposed to be good? Considering once you fire at something, the whole squad does too, it makes just as much sense to fire a bunch of autocannons or something instead of spending so much. So the first codex to have Skyfire weapon options has all of one single Skyfire weapon option. And no, the Hell Drake doesn't count.

I think the writer simply didn't have the imagination to think up new and exciting melee or ranged weapons. Yeah, we have Icons and marks and Chaos Artefacts, but those are expensive options. We have a menagerie of new USRs, put then to good use and think up some decent chaos-y weapons that aren't OP or expensive as the dickens. Its just that we've seen powerfists freakin' everywhere. Give us something new that champions can take.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
And i bet the new DA wont have ectoplasm guns bale flamers burning brands daemonic steeds hades autocannons chainaxes boons of mutation icons marks autocannons on marines for that matter we got plenty of new units forge fiends mauler fiends helldrakes warpsmith dark apostles warp talons. You just seem dissapointed because were the first codex in a while that didnt get a or feel like acomplete overhaul.


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and also i doubt that there new terminators will be as cheap or customisable as ours

And I bet the new Chaos won't have Plasma Cannons, twin Plasma Gun Bikers, twin Plasma Cannon Land Speeders, Smite, shield wall Terminators, Multi-Melta's, a flyer that doesn't look like a chicken, Land Raider crusaders, Land Raider variants, Whirl Winds, Razor Backs, And they shall have no fear.

Oh and I bet those Chaos terminators won't be as customisable as the DA customisable terminators, the kit which makes two variants who can have all the weapons we can have and a Plasma Cannon!

Your argument is that anyone who wanted a better codex is effectively that they haven't read the codex, or they want a super Grey knight awesome codex so powerful it would make 7th edition Daemons gak bricks. Your horrid little rant listing the names of weapons and units that Dark Angels could already counter and a invalid Terminator argument falls short because it doesn't make sense.

Yeah the new Daemon engines (Zoids) are nice, but they aren't legion rules or new special characters. We still don't get Plasma Cannons or Multi-Melta's, no Land Raider variants and the Hell Brute can't take duel Auto-cannons. I could list more, but you'll probably ignore me.

yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Personally I would have loved to see the cult marines get a better improvement. Personally the Khorne berzerkers just seem like CSM with a mark of khorne and access to chainaxes.

Maybe give the Berzerkers a special rule where the champion gets to roll on a table if the total number of unsaved CC wounds exceeds a certain amount.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Just as effectively as any other Terminator unit? Oh goody

Oh wait, my Champion is paying almost double for every war gear option he has, has to challenge and we pay how many points for fearless?

Yeah, your Terminator argument isn't going to win anyone over.

we didnt have legion rules in the last codex but this one is certainley a improvement over the last with warpsmiths cultists and dark apostles we dont have new special charectors correct.. Because we already have so many! neccrons got a bunch of new ones because previously they had none barring the ctan we dont have dreads duel weilding autocannons..again correct because we have foregefiends with 8 str 8 shots and an invul+it will not die you want plasma cannons play oblitz? use a hellbrute? ectoplasm cannon?

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

are you serious? read what the man said. Heck, read what I said. How the dickens are CSM "cheap" terminators supposed to kill anything when the things they try to kill have far superior weapons? CSM terminators are only cheap because they don't have ANYTHING to start with. As I said in my post you clearly ignored, they come out to rather expensive terminators when you actually add things together. Just because they're less than 40 points per terminator does not by any stretch of your imagination mean they are better than terminators with freaking plasma cannons.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Just as effectively as any other Terminator unit? Oh goody

Oh wait, my Champion is paying almost double for every war gear option he has, has to challenge and we pay how many points for fearless?

Yeah, your Terminator argument isn't going to win anyone over.

Yep our terminators suck i hate having every combi weapon availible for 5 pts apiece which doesnt even take em up to normal terminator price at that and even then for 5 points you can ave MoT for only 1 point more then a normal terminator and can pick from the four power weapons.


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 McNinja wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

are you serious? read what the man said. Heck, read what I said. How the dickens are CSM "cheap" terminators supposed to kill anything when the things they try to kill have far superior weapons? CSM terminators are only cheap because they don't have ANYTHING to start with. As I said in my post you clearly ignored, they come out to rather expensive terminators when you actually add things together. Just because they're less than 40 points per terminator does not by any stretch of your imagination mean they are better than terminators with freaking plasma cannons.

You listening to me?
for 1 point more then a normal terminator which using your example the unit would still be cheaper in the end because of terminators taking a plasma cannon
can have a better invul and combi plasma which would eliminate the terminator unit you speak of quite easily.

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
we didnt have legion rules in the last codex but this one is certainley a improvement over the last with warpsmiths cultists and dark apostles we dont have new special charectors correct.. Because we already have so many! neccrons got a bunch of new ones because previously they had none barring the ctan we dont have dreads duel weilding autocannons..again correct because we have foregefiends with 8 str 8 shots and an invul+it will not die you want plasma cannons play oblitz? use a hellbrute? ectoplasm cannon?

Dark Apostles, Cultists, Warpsmiths....

All really mediocre to useless units, Dark Apostles seem nice, until you notice the price tag and lack of options that would make it viable. Warpsmiths need a vehicle heavy army to be useful, then you realise they are an HQ choice, and don't get servitors to help with repairs. Cultists are an expensive meat-shield, you might as well take Ork or Guard allies.

Because we have many? We have a bunch of beat sticks with the exception of Huron and Ahriman, one of whom is still a beat stick. No HQ choice to really alter the way the army plays, no Bikes as troops, no Raptors as troops. Yeah cult troops as troops, but wait, why would you take them as elites? Forgefiends aren't as strong as you think, a melta-gun makes short work of them, despite the amazing 5+ save. Ectoplasma Cannons are nice, until you realise that a lascannon will bring him down with little difficulty. Obliterators aren't a stable firing platform, unable to keep a weapon option for more than one turn, and Hellbrutes are just awful/].


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 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

Just as effectively as any other Terminator unit? Oh goody

Oh wait, my Champion is paying almost double for every war gear option he has, has to challenge and we pay how many points for fearless?

Yeah, your Terminator argument isn't going to win anyone over.

Yep our terminators suck i hate having every combi weapon availible for 5 pts apiece which doesnt even take em up to normal terminator price at that and even then for 5 points you can ave MoT for only 1 point more then a normal terminator and can pick from the four power weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
yes but keep in mind are terminators for CHEAPER can absolutely destroy any other terminator unit in the game?

are you serious? read what the man said. Heck, read what I said. How the dickens are CSM "cheap" terminators supposed to kill anything when the things they try to kill have far superior weapons? CSM terminators are only cheap because they don't have ANYTHING to start with. As I said in my post you clearly ignored, they come out to rather expensive terminators when you actually add things together. Just because they're less than 40 points per terminator does not by any stretch of your imagination mean they are better than terminators with freaking plasma cannons.

You listening to me?
for 1 point more then a normal terminator which using your example the unit would still be cheaper in the end because of terminators taking a plasma cannon
can have a better invul and combi plasma which would eliminate the terminator unit you speak of quite easily.

I never said they sucked, I said they weren't as amazing as you claimed them to be. Combi Weapons get one shot, and we can't have storm shields, which are better than Mark of Tzeentch. Space Wolf Termies can have all four Power Weapons, while a Power fist is just as good.

That Plasma Cannon will eliminate the squad you speak off quite easily.

Things I would have liked:

Legion traits for Chaos Lords, for example, if you take the Night Lords trait you get the Lord of Terror War Lord trait instead of rolling randomly & raptors become troops (see that was easy) Or if you buy the Alpha Legion trait you get the Master of Deception War Lord trait and your chosen gain infiltrate. Etc. Allowing those who see a legion as more than a paint scheme to have rules they actually have to pay for.

Also, I would like it if your general getting a mark unlocked god specific items. For example, if your general had the mark of slaanesh he could buy himself the slaaneshi weapons under the Noise Marine listing and maybe his havocs and helbrutes could replace lascannons with the Blastmaster.

I know 3.5 gets a lot of crap, but the general ideas could have translated over to 6th edition without the threat of making a new order of Grey Knights.

Oh and lastly, the Mutilators, why do they have slow and purposeful? On an assault unit? Wtf? I think being daemonized to be an assaulter (like DPs and chosen) would give benefits, not penalties. . . not that I am playing them.

Cheers

the plasma cannon wouldnt kill that unit easily if your playing anyone who actually knows how to play the game no one smart would let you get more then 2 hits and even then with MoT theres a good chance one will survive.. congrats your unit that can easily kill my terminator unit racked up an impressive one kill while lets say what 5 man units? my ten plasma shot just ganked 3 or 4 of your terminators nice trade off!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
the plasma cannon wouldnt kill that unit easily if your playing anyone who actually knows how to play the game no one smart would let you get more then 2 hits and even then with MoT theres a good chance one will survive.. congrats your unit that can easily kill my terminator unit racked up an impressive one kill while lets say what 5 man units? my ten plasma shot just ganked 3 or 4 of your terminators nice trade off!

Until you fail the LD test cause you just lost 2 of your 5 man squad! And then you realise that your now running away Terminator unit is about to gunned down.

That or they have Stormshields.