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What are people looking for in their cult terminators anyway? Don't the marks and icons make you feel good?

I was planning on trying out Termies with MoT this weekend to escort a Sorcerer with the Sigil and MoT. May not have much fire power out, but I'm going to make someone work for that STW objective.

But the issue is just that Deamon of X and Mark of X seem to fall short some places and obviously there are more points effective marks and icons out there.

Behold! The Chaos Space Marines Codex as I would like to see!

What is in:
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Mark of Khorne is changed back to flat +1 A
- Vehicle Marks
- Mark buffs: the Dark Apostle enhances normal marks, Daemonic Possession enhances vehicle marks
- Some extra Icons: the "Teleport Homer Icon" and the "Alpha Legion Icon"
- Lots of extra wargear and artefacts
- Buffed Champion of Chaos special rule and better "challenge capabilities" in general
- Undivided Psychic Discipline
- New Tzeentch primaris power (blessing)
- Slightly changed special characters and two new SCs (a Night Lords Undivided SC and Doomrider)
- Daemon Princes now take Marks
- The Dark Apostle is now cool, just put him into a Marked unit
- The Warpsmith now has some cool tricks too
- Chaos Cyclone Missile Launchers!
- Helbrute now has tenbazillion options
- Cult Terminators!
- God specific Daemon Engines
- Cultists can be upgraded to Forsaken/Mutatns/Renegeades/Wyrdlings
- Dreadclaw!
- CSM Cavalry!
- Improved Warp Talons
- Artillery tank
- Land Raider variants

What isn't:
- The reason why some special rules/wargear is missing: because they are unchanged
- Fluff for the new stuff


Enjoy !

 Lucre wrote:
What are people looking for in their cult terminators anyway? Don't the marks and icons make you feel good?

CSM players want cult terminators to have what cult marine units have, sonic weaponry on Noise Terminators, Tzeentch AP 3 rounds on T-Son Terminators and such. Getting marks and icons is a step in the right direction, but one more step would have allowed flavorful armies that were not overpowered. Chaos Space Marines with the mark of Tzeentch are not Thousand Sons, I think you would agree with that. . .

Most people disappointed with the current codex still think there are lot of fun options in it, but that it stopped short of what it could have been. Most people who are dissatisfied with it are not due to a lack of powerful options but rather for the lack of flavorful options. Options that were available before and that no one really complained about being OP. I don't hear any requests for the return of 4 heavy support options or the daemon bomb list.

Cheers!

 Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:
Most people disappointed with the current codex still think there are lot of fun options in it, but that it stopped short of what it could have been. Most people who are dissatisfied with it are not due to a lack of powerful options but rather for the lack of flavorful options. Options that were available before and that no one really complained about being OP. I don't hear any requests for the return of 4 heavy support options or the daemon bomb list.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Though a few rules (Boon Table) and units (Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Possessed, Mutilators, etc) in the Codex could have been thought out a bit more.

I was thinking for Dark Apostles (after reading Black Crusade)

What if they had rituals, they could pick X from a list (one normally, could buy more) with undivided and mark related rituals.

These rituals would grant buffs in his 6" aura, and to the unit he's within. This would make him sufficiently different from a chaplain, in that he's devoting resources (Not sure what to do for cost and what to do, maybe a wound on his squad depending on the strength of the ritual?) to the Dark Gods.

Also, the first psyker power for tzeentch would replace his "Rerolls on the boon table", thus him "Beseeching" The dark gods for a gift for the individual, however as he's calling upon the dark gods for someone else (or himself, rather then earning it) it has -2 on the boon chart, not allowing for Dark Apotheosis, either that or just reroll whenever he gains that boon.

I haven't really read the chaos codex yet (as the csm player in our group hasn't bought it as far as I know) but it seems ok to me. Some naff units (like mutilators) but you always get at least one of those with every new codex.

I did write some chaos legions rules of my own. I will put them up in a post on here.

Honestly I'm pretty happy with the new codex I'd change just a couple things.

First I'd make the chaos boon table have about 1/2 to 2/3 effect the entire squad the champion who won the challenge is in. And I'd he dies in the challenge you still get to role on the table.

The second would be generic daemon weopons... At least 1 per god.

Third is the only chaos cult I think is really unplayable which is Tson. Give their sorcerer the ability to buy a mastery point and while he's in the unit make them relentless

Cult termites could be cool but would take up too much space IMHO...

When the Chaos Space Marine codex was the first and only 6th edition codex that was out I was initially dissappointed with the codex but thought "well maybe this is how all the codexes are going.." But then Dark Angels came out. I am not saying that it is omg broken, but I think it got a lot more buffs that chaos marines got. for instance the deathknights and their weapons become ap1 when fighting chaos- wow. There grim resolve and hatred of chaos marines is gifted free or very low cost, vs our veterans of the long war which with some units is really not cheap at all. Stubborn all around and they shall know no fear, vs ld 8 or 9 with veterans of the long war with no stubborn or know no fear. Honestly I play in a pretty competitve group of gamers in our area, but I have struggled to make my chaos marines shine. I have played Eldar, Orks, Chaos Daemons as well in 6th ed so far and have had a lot more luck with them in 6th ed and they all have far older codexes - now orks had dakka jets intro'd and chaos daemons got a small update, but really, my Eldar doing consistently better with no allies or flyers, I think the chaos marines should be running circles around them and they are not. I just don't believe that this codex is super competitive, but I have not given up on it yet... Cheers all

 Lucre wrote:
What are people looking for in their cult terminators anyway? Don't the marks and icons make you feel good?

Thousand Sons Terminators with AP3 Bolters, 3+ invulnerable saves (Terminator armour 5+, Thousand Son 4+, Mark of Tzeentch 3+), no weapon options other than basic bolters and power weapons and slow and purposeful/fearless with a Sorceror leading the squad.

Berzerker Terminators with WS5, Furious Charge, no weapon options other than close combat weapons and Fearless.

Noise Terminators with Sonic Weapons and Fearless.

Plague Terminators with Feel no Pain, Poisoned Weapons and Fearless.


The whole the icon bearer dying removing Fearless is kind of not the same.

Would've liked to have seen Chosen with the Mark of Tzeentch given the Brotherhood of Sorcerors rule similar to in 3.5.

Mark of Tzeentch in general is lackluster on most things. Lore of Tzeentch isn't bad but also isn't what you'd expect from the God whose whole theme is wild psychic power. Would have liked to have seen Mark of Tzeentch increase mastery level at least. Why Ahriman doesn't have a spell familiar I can't explain.

Okay. This is a pretty short document, but this is all stuff that I know would make the CSM codex better. It's all pretty minor for the most part, but a few subtle changes here and there really change how armies play.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LbMQCqOnMVUeawCFvjG7MV3dzRDQITo7oKPSi1ZqmL4/edit

Enjoy!

@AtoMaki: I really enjoyed reading through it, good job dude! Appreciate the time and effort you spent.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

@AtoMaki: I really enjoyed reading through it, good job dude! Appreciate the time and effort you spent.

Hey, thanks! I will soon open a separate thread for it. And you don't have to appreciate the "time and effort". Believe it or not, I've created that revised codex in a single afternoon ... So yeah, I guess PK missed one afternoon of work while writing the CSM codex or something...

My only sadness with the codex was the fact it still feels more like Undivided and doesn't allow a lot of room for you to play any specific niche except Nurgle really.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

@AtoMaki: I really enjoyed reading through it, good job dude! Appreciate the time and effort you spent.

Hey, thanks! I will soon open a separate thread for it. And you don't have to appreciate the "time and effort". Believe it or not, I've created that revised codex in a single afternoon ... So yeah, I guess PK missed one afternoon of work while writing the CSM codex or something...

Well even doing that in a single afternoon is a singe afternoon more than Mrs. Kelly spent on the codex. So anything more than that I consider "time and effort".

 AtoMaki wrote:
Behold! The Chaos Space Marines Codex as I would like to see!

What is in:
- Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Mark of Khorne is changed back to flat +1 A
- Vehicle Marks
- Mark buffs: the Dark Apostle enhances normal marks, Daemonic Possession enhances vehicle marks
- Some extra Icons: the "Teleport Homer Icon" and the "Alpha Legion Icon"
- Lots of extra wargear and artefacts
- Buffed Champion of Chaos special rule and better "challenge capabilities" in general
- Undivided Psychic Discipline
- New Tzeentch primaris power (blessing)
- Slightly changed special characters and two new SCs (a Night Lords Undivided SC and Doomrider)
- Daemon Princes now take Marks
- The Dark Apostle is now cool, just put him into a Marked unit
- The Warpsmith now has some cool tricks too
- Chaos Cyclone Missile Launchers!
- Helbrute now has tenbazillion options
- Cult Terminators!
- God specific Daemon Engines
- Cultists can be upgraded to Forsaken/Mutatns/Renegeades/Wyrdlings
- Dreadclaw!
- CSM Cavalry!
- Improved Warp Talons
- Artillery tank
- Land Raider variants

What isn't:
- The reason why some special rules/wargear is missing: because they are unchanged
- Fluff for the new stuff


Enjoy !

I would look at the thread over in General CSM vs. DA comparison thread. Some great ideas in there, and in your redo!

I know somebody already said this but I want to reinforce the idea.

Cultitst: needs infiltrate! I dont think they should have sniper rifles but I think they should have grenade launchers and plasma guns like in Dawn of War. They should also have the ability to kamikaze like in Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising. Wish they can fit 20 into a rhino by changing size to less than small so they are squished together like clowns in a small car. Increase squad cap from 35 to 40 and include rules similar to Imperial guard platoons or combat squads, where if the unit has 40 models exactly, they can be split into 2 groups of 20 models like combat squad.

Chosen: It would be nice to regain infiltrate. or give them scout or something like the yggdrasil genestealers, or automatic re-deployment to trick the enemy. And I like that +1 to WS and BS or they get that buff if Abaddon is warlord. Also, the one missile launcher they can take has flakk missiles or can purchase the upgrade for 5-10pts. Veterans of the Long War should be a given.

Landraider: should have the other variants that the Imperium does not employ. What ever that death one sounds interesting with 2 heavy flamers, reaper autocannon and transport cap 12. Is there a variant to carry 20 models sacrificing weaponry?

Open topped transport for the khorne beserkers. Call it the Hippo! its just a Rhino but its open topped with no weapon options and could carry more units.

Flying transport or give back personal icons or make its so all Icons have the personal icon rule.

Something for the champions to actually win a challenge. LOLZ!

Defiler: Option to take sky fire and an additional reaper autocannon. Or upgrade havoc launchers into 3 twin linked missile launchers with flakk missiles.

Noise marines: change sonic blaster from salvo 2/3 back to assault 2, heavy 3.

Ectoplasma Guns: Can further upgrade Plasma Gun for 5-10 points which adds +1S. Making the Ectoplasma gun cost 20pts or 25pts.

Thousand Sons: really like that heavy bolter option. Maybe they can take 1 in a squad of 5 and 2 in a squad of 10. Inferno Bolts should have fleshbane or AP3. Psyker should be able to purchase mastery levels. Or just guarantee a Doom Bolt power. Or possibly reroll for the power.

It would be awesome if there was a way to take the cheap termi as troops and have 6 squads of 10 models each so you can have 60 terminators! But there is no fluff to support it.