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copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.

Cite what makes it forbidden.

The fact there is no permission to do so, mainly.

Find permission to put the wound back in the wound pool, or admit it cannot be done.

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.

Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

What you're missing is that the wound is not doubled until after its allocated.
So 4 wounds are caused.
4 saves are failed/negated.
1 wound is allocated. Swarm model 1 takes a wound. It is doubled to two. The STR is high enough to ID the model. Model dies and second wound goes with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.

Cite what makes it forbidden.

Wrong way around bucko - permissive rules. I've proven that the wound is created after allocation. Please cite where a wound would return from being allocated and add to the wound pool.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The wound hits a Swarm model. The suffered wound is doubled - if it's not ID, the Swarm has now suffered 2 wounds.

If it is ID, find permission to move that 2nd wound to the wound pool after it has already been suffered.

Well I'm missing something (no sarcasm), because (leaving an IC out of the equation), allocation seems to happen after failing saves on page 15. So you would allocate 1 unsaved wound at a time (swarm causing that number to x2), causing ID with each wound. I don't need to go back to the wound pool, so I couldn't care less about needing permission to do it. Wound pool = saves needed (if possible) allocation is wounds caused (which would already be doubled), which would be IDing bases one ID wound at a time.

What you're missing is that the wound is not doubled until after its allocated.
So 4 wounds are caused.
4 saves are failed/negated.
1 wound is allocated. Swarm model 1 takes a wound. It is doubled to two. The STR is high enough to ID the model. Model dies and second wound goes with it.

Okay, I see that, and I get it, but I disagree as to your reading of it

"is a swarm suffers an unsaved wound... its multiplied to two unsaved wounds" page 43

"make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused... next allocate an unsaved wound to the enemy model closets to the firing unit..." page 15

Seems like allocation happens after the doubling, not before. How do you know that allocation happens before the doubling, because I'm seeing quite the opposite. As page 15 makes no reference to the wound pool one way or another for same save units.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
You can only allocate wounds from the wound pool. So in order to allocate the doubled wound you would have to "put" it back to the wound pool, but that is forbidden.

Cite what makes it forbidden.

Wrong way around bucko - permissive rules. I've proven that the wound is created after allocation. Please cite where a wound would return from being allocated and add to the wound pool.

It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.

But units do not suffer wounds, models do...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

Which it has as you roll saves in one go, with models that have the same save, before allocation.

False. Swarm is model based and therefore cannot suffer a wound until after allocation.
The unit has suffered wounds, but models have not.

But units do not suffer wounds, models do...

Regardless, the wounds are demonstrably not doubled until they are allocated.
And I'd love a citation for the quoted statement.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.

You seem very sure of this, but where is this connection coming from? In 5th edition, something being model instead of unit based would have been remarkable, but 6th edition should be called "model edition". Cover is model based, saves are model based, SR are model based, range is model based, the whole game is model based. Something being model based doesn't alter game mechanics, it is the game mechanic. Every wound in the game is model based, so thinking this is something special or unique is a non sequitur.

Page 15, "Take Saving Throws" makes it 100% clear that saves and wounds caused by failing those is a unit based roll and result. On failing, for a swarm, the wounds are doubled (as per page 43). It says suffered (which would be anything that makes it past a save), not allocated. After they are doubled, we would then proceed to "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties". Those, now doubled wounds, get allocated. Once a model receives a wound, through allocation, that doubles its toughness, it suffers ID, and is removed.

For the quoted "units do not suffer wounds, models do"?

The onus is on you to say otherwise, as units do not have a wounds value.

Do you have something that says units can suffer wounds or have a wound characteristic?

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's doubled after allocation as Swarm is a model based rule, therefore you cannot double before a model with Swarm suffers a wound.

And the wound pool is populated regardless of unit type, and wounds are allocated from the wound pool for same save units - page 15.

You seem very sure of this, but where is this connection coming from? In 5th edition, something being model instead of unit based would have been remarkable, but 6th edition should be called "model edition". Cover is model based, saves are model based, SR are model based, range is model based, the whole game is model based. Something being model based doesn't alter game mechanics, it is the game mechanic. Every wound in the game is model based, so thinking this is something special or unique is a non sequitur.

I never said it was unique.

Page 15, "Take Saving Throws" makes it 100% clear that saves and wounds caused by failing those is a unit based roll and result. On failing, for a swarm, the wounds are doubled (as per page 43). It says suffered (which would be anything that makes it past a save), not allocated. After they are doubled, we would then proceed to "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties". Those, now doubled wounds, get allocated. Once a model receives a wound, through allocation, that doubles its toughness, it suffers ID, and is removed.

So how does a model suffer a wound before its allocated? Ill wait.

That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

 DeathReaper wrote:
For the quoted "units do not suffer wounds, models do"?

The onus is on you to say otherwise, as units do not have a wounds value.

Do you have something that says models can suffer wounds or have a wound characteristic?

I know you meant units here, not models.
No, I don't. And it actually helps my point that units cannot suffer wounds.

Yes that last line was supposed to say units.

However my quotes from P.15 and 16 tell you the process of suffering unsaved wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

rigeld2 wrote:

So how does a model suffer a wound before its allocated? Ill wait.

It's part of a same save unit. Look at saving throws in general (another model by model part of the game). Page 17 tells us Invuln saves are taken after a wound is suffered. Do you think a unit of same save terminators hit with plasma guns has wounds allocated and then rolls saves? Or, do you think you roll the saves and then allocate failed rolls? I've never met anyone in 6th edition that preforms the latter over the former... if you do it the opposite way, I'll concede that you are at least consistent and I'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.

rigeld2 wrote:
RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.

As always, assuming a same save unit...

Invulns are a saving throw.... (page 16 and 17)
Saving throws are taken before allocation.... (page 15)
Invulns are something that happens after suffering.... (page 17)

...therefore suffering must happen before allocation... right?

Where do we get anything different to go off of here, where is my logic flawed?

SIDENOTE: I totally recognize and acknowledge that I've made you restate quite a bit that you've already said in this thread. I kinda came into this late, as I was following when not by my rule-book. You've been respectful and courteous the entire time as I've asked question after question, thank you for letting this be a debate not a flame-thrower bout.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.

Sorry, I misremembered my book.
So an unsaved wound is equated to a suffered wound. Would you agree?
Side question if that's the case - would FNP remove one wound or two?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
RAW you'd have to roll after they're allocated.
And remember, that's what is discussed by default - the actual rules. Not how I would (or do) play them. That's a different question that I haven't been asked.

As always, assuming a same save unit...

Invulns are a saving throw.... (page 16 and 17)
Saving throws are taken before allocation.... (page 15)
Invulns are something that happens after suffering.... (page 17)

...therefore suffering must happen before allocation... right?

Where do we get anything different to go off of here, where is my logic flawed?

So FNP must also happen before allocation, yes?

SIDENOTE: I totally recognize and acknowledge that I've made you restate quite a bit that you've already said in this thread. I kinda came into this late, as I was following when not by my rule-book. You've been respectful and courteous the entire time as I've asked question after question, thank you for letting this be a debate not a flame-thrower bout.

Thanks. I try to be level headed most of the time.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
That answer is on P.15
"First of all, the target unit gets to make one saving throw, if it has one (see page 16), for each Wound being resolved. Make a note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused."

Coupled with P. 16 "If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound."

After saves are taken you suffer wounds.

So you roll to hit, roll to wound, take saves and suffer unsaved wounds that have been caused.

You're mixing same and mixed type units. You cannot do that.

The Page 16 stuff is under "Types of Saving Throws"

It has nothing to do with different unit types.

Mixed saves is on P.15 not on P. 16

I am not mixing them.

Sorry, I misremembered my book.
So an unsaved wound is equated to a suffered wound. Would you agree?
Side question if that's the case - would FNP remove one wound or two?

It could be two, as the wounds are doubled after the failed save, and FNP treats the wound as saved.

Though it says when you suffer an unsaved wound roll FNP, so it could be that you have to roll 2 FNP rolls for each doubled unsaved wound.

I really do not know how to call this one, as the rules seem to have equal weight, so I would recommend taking the least advantageous interpretation. Of course I have no idea what the least advantageous interpretation is. maybe the first one.

rigeld2 wrote:

So FNP must also happen before allocation, yes?

For a same save unit, yes, if they all have FNP (which parallels to them all being Swarm models). I've always played that a CSM squad with FNP rolls FNP before allocation... only the failed rolls get allocated

The way I see it, either invuln saves break the game (with one reading of the rules), or Swarm doubling (and FNP) happens before allocation (and the game works again).

EDIT: To any late comers: which is why I feel that 3 Str 6 wounds from a blast weapon that bypass any saves to a Swarm unit with T3, causes 6 models to be removed, not 3 (cause I know most of you won't read past the last half dozen posts).

Thanks. I try to be level headed most of the time.

Doing well... better than yours truly, might I add... I go snarky quicker than I should

The FAQ itself shows that the wounds are not "suffered" till they reduce a model's Wounds not when they are Wounds or unsaved Wounds in a pool. There has been no attempt to address this by anyone arguing that you double the wounds in the pool.


Per pg 16 Armour Saves, "To make an armour save, roll a d6 and compare the result to the Armour Save characteristic of the model that has been allocated the Wound."
Per pg 17 Invulnerable Save, "Invulnerable saves are different to armour saves because they may always be taken whenever the model suffers a Wound-"

What if allocation and suffered are being used interchangeably? In that event, in mixed or same save units, would that not cover all avenues? In same save you roll them find the number of unsaved wounds then allocate the wound/the model suffers the wound, which is when it is doubled as well as checking for ID. In mixed save you allocate the wound/the model suffers the wound then it makes it's save and if it fails it is then doubled and checked for ID. In either case this covers every occurrence of triggering for all rules. This also would cover why the wounds in the pool in a challenge are not "suffered" and as such not counted in combat resolution.

Edit: Due to the changes in FNP procedure Wounds are now done in the mixed save method requiring allocation first.

What if allocation and suffered are being used interchangeably?

This still makes no difference.

The procedure is like that:

1. Roll saves -> no saves made or possible -> 4 unsaved wounds
2. Allocate wounds -> 1st guy suffers an unsaved wound, which then is doubled, so he suffers 2 unsaved wounds. Then ID is triggered and he is removed regardless of remaining wounds. Same happens with second, third and fourth allocated wound.

Now where is the problem?

Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

 Lobukia wrote:
Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

So in a same save unit, according to you, wounds are doubled before allocation.
With the changes to FNP (thanks for pointing them out Gravmyr, I'd forgotten), and the fact that wounds are not suffered in a mixed save unit until after allocation, the wound would be allocated, wounds doubled, nothing returns to the pool, base is removed. Note that this applies even if you cannot make a FNP roll due to ID.

This is wackadoodle. I'm gonna re-read some of the rule book today if I have time around my sons 3rd birthday party.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Armour and Invuln saves are saving throws. In same save unit, saves go BEFORE allocation.

You only roll saves for wounds suffered, so doubling would already have happened.

Never are we required to return to the pool, so who cares what's happening with it. You roll saves based on wound in pool, but allocate after suffering. Please find the rule saying you can't allocate more wounds than the pool and I'll care about the pool.

I've already shown the relevant pages and quotes.

So in a same save unit, according to you, wounds are doubled before allocation.

Agreed

With the changes to FNP (thanks for pointing them out Gravmyr, I'd forgotten), and the fact that wounds are not suffered in a mixed save unit until after allocation, the wound would be allocated, wounds doubled, nothing returns to the pool, base is removed. Note that this applies even if you cannot make a FNP roll due to ID.

Also agreed (and thanks Gravmyr, again... brain fart for me too... got caught up in reading the book and forgot to refer to FAQ for FNP... even though I had just scanned in a dozen times for ID and allocation etc.)

This is wackadoodle.

Completely... Thanks GW, the magic of having a character makes the entire wound matrix alter... why again?

I'm gonna re-read some of the rule book today if I have time around my sons 3rd birthday party.

Hey!, congrats. I've got a 3YO of my own. Tons of questions at 2YO, but at 3 it went supernova.... good luck if its your 1st 3YO, I'm sure its an old hat if you've got others

4 ID wounds cause 8 bases to be removed.

We start on pg 14 the wound pool. All wounds caused go here.

pg 15. take saving throws, make a note of how many unsaved wounds have been caused (in the pool)
pg 19. models with moire than one save. (the unit might take the wounds, but saves are model by model)
the unit consisting of models all with the swarm rule take their saves and fail 4. Because its here where you work out what model is making the save. The closest model makes A save based on what saves it has available, ie cover or armor. So the model with swarm has been allocated a wound it now gets to save against. The wounds are still in the pool, and get doubled. in other words a swarm model has been allocated a wounds, then failed its save so its suffered an unsaved wound.

short version: The unit now has 4 unsaved wounds in the pool which get doubled to 8.

Allocate unsaved wounds & remove casualties.

Once you allocate a wound its no longer in the wound pool, so your statement cannot be correct.