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We are havign an argue abotu this rule and any help to clearing it out woud lbe apretiated, so I thank you in advance for your answers.

Now for the question: can all characteristics except Ld ( WS BS S T W I A and Sv ) be reduced to 0?

I think only S, T, W, and I can be reduced to zero. Everything I can think of that modifies BS, WS, and A, have minimums of 1, while what comes to mind for Ld only modifies the Ld score by a couple points, which shouldn't reduce it to zero. Saves...? Does stuff that ignores an armor or invulnerable save count as reducing it to zero for the purpose of your discussion?

Any stat, for the most part, can be reduced to 0 due to debuffs.

For example, the Broodlord has a BS of 0, and cannot use any ranged attack/ability at all.

Crazyterran wrote:
Any stat, for the most part, can be reduced to 0 due to debuffs.

For example, the Broodlord has a BS of 0, and cannot use any ranged attack/ability at all.

Is that via debuffs or is it on the statline that way? Some units have a null value for certain stats, whereas some abilities merely temporarily debuff it. I think the question stands as "Could a unit be debuffed to have a 0 for BS/WS/A, assuming it normally has a positive value for that stat?" Example...even though Flayed ones have BS 1, could they be reduced to BS 0 by a debuff or is BS 0 strictly for units that do not have that ability at all?

I think the only stat that can't be reduced to zero is maybe initiative, although I'm not sure of this and would be fine playing with I0 striking after everything. WS 0 makes it so that you can't hit anything and are automatically hit, BS 0 makes it so you can't make any shooting attacks, S zero means you can't cause wounds, LD zero means that you can only pass leadership tests on insane heroism, and 0 wounds means that you are automatically removed as a casualty. I'm not sure about T 0, but I think it either means that everything automatically wounds or that you are immediately removed as a casualty (I remember that it was ruled on, I just can't remember what the ruling was).

So if you can have your T reduced to 0, in theory with enough successful Enfeebles on a unit, you can reduce them to 0 and then cast Hemorrhage, and as long as it goes off, they don't deny, and you hit with it, you could basically just remove a unit.

I thought having S or T reduced to 0 caused a model to be removed as a casualty?

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
I thought having S or T reduced to 0 caused a model to be removed as a casualty?

Not sure, just had a look through the rulebook, couldn't see anything about it, the only thing I could see about being reduced to a 0 characteristic and dying is ID reducing you to 0 wounds.

Weaken Resolve can lower Leadership to 0 or lower.

But on a Ld a double 1 is always a pass, with other characteristics, it says a 1 is always a pass and 6 always a fail, unless the Characteristic is 0 or -, in which case it is an auto fail.

Thank you guys for your answers, the reason why I question this is because of rumored new Dark Angels flyer. It will have the ability to reduce targeted enemy WS and I for -3, so the question was "what would happened if the targeted unit has WS 3 and I 3? Are they then lowered to 0?"

To WS1 and I 1.

WS can be 0 (stationary Vehicles) and are autohit.

BS 0 means the model can't shoot.

Str is minimum 1

T is minimum 1

W can be 0 obviously

Int minimum 1

A can be 0

Ld minimum 1

Sv can be -

 Deadshot wrote:
WS can be 0 (stationary Vehicles) and are autohit.

BS 0 means the model can't shoot.

Str is minimum 1

T is minimum 1

W can be 0 obviously

Int minimum 1

A can be 0

Ld minimum 1

Sv can be -

Where does it say Str and T can only be reduced to a minimum of 1?

Going off the Nid spore mine which has minimum characteristics for all.


Although, the Artillery profile shows that Str, Int, and Ld can be 0. So maybe only wounds is minimum 1.

 Deadshot wrote:
Going off the Nid spore mine which has minimum characteristics for all.


Although, the Artillery profile shows that Str, Int, and Ld can be 0. So maybe only wounds is minimum 1.

Well wounds has to start at a minimum of one, otherwise, its dead

Yes I said that. I thought it was obvious enough to not require saying it.

it is in the rules IIRC that if T or Wounds are ever reduced to 0 the model is removed as a casuality.

Now most Debuffs say that you can't reduce the effected Stat below 1, but there are a few that don't. So with those you could reduce a unit to T0 and remove the entire unit.

Of course you would have to habe the perfect combination of Debuffs.

Nowhere I'd it stated that t being 0 means death, this is a fantasy rule, enfeeble can only reduce to one as its part of the.malediction rules

 Formosa wrote:
Nowhere I'd it stated that t being 0 means death,

I recommend re-reading page 3 of the rulebook.

 Formosa wrote:
enfeeble can only reduce to one as its part of the.malediction rules

That's true; Maledictions can't reduce stats below 1 unless they explicitly say they can.

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if you can have your T reduced to 0, in theory with enough successful Enfeebles on a unit.

This can not happen, as psychic powers cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics below 1.

Edited for a missed rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if you can have your T reduced to 0, in theory with enough successful Enfeebles on a unit.

This can not happen, as enfeebles do not say that they stack.

Citation required - what would prevent them from stacking? It's not under Maledictions, nor under Enfeeble.

I have permission to subtract 2 from 2 different Enfeebles. Where's the denial of that permission?

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if you can have your T reduced to 0, in theory with enough successful Enfeebles on a unit.

This can not happen, as enfeebles do not say that they stack.

Citation required - what would prevent them from stacking? It's not under Maledictions, nor under Enfeeble.

I have permission to subtract 2 from 2 different Enfeebles. Where's the denial of that permission?

Edited for a missed rule.

The Codex CSM, Nurgle Psychic Powers Gift of Contagion on P. 71 that states "The effects of multiple gifts of contagion are cumulative"

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
So if you can have your T reduced to 0, in theory with enough successful Enfeebles on a unit.

This can not happen, as enfeebles do not say that they stack.

Citation required - what would prevent them from stacking? It's not under Maledictions, nor under Enfeeble.

I have permission to subtract 2 from 2 different Enfeebles. Where's the denial of that permission?

The Permissive ruleset.

It does not say it can stack so it does not.

Unlike the Codex CSM, Nurgle Psychic Powers Gift of Contagion on P. 71 that states "The effects of multiple gifts of contagion are cumulative"

As I said - I have permission. The sentence on Gift of Contagion is redundant.
I cast Enfeeble. This gives me permission to subtract 1.
Another psyker casts Enfeeble. This gives me permission to subtract 1.
Find the rule that denies that permission.

Edited for a missed rule.

They wrote that the Nurgle Psychic Power Gift of Contagion on P. 71 does stack, because normally things do not stack unless specifically noted.

Plus the rule in the Blessing/Malediction section that says that multiple Maledictions and Blessings are cumulative.

Okay there it is, they stack because the rules on P.68 specify they do stack "Note that bonuses and penalties from different blessings are always cumulative, but cannot, unless otherwise stated, take characteristics above 10 or below 1." P. 68.

Therefore it must say it does stack or it does not.

That said enfeeble does stack, but can not bring a stat below 1.

Indeed, so unless something specifically says it can take it below 1 it doesn't. I got slightly mixed up with Fantesy which has the opposite stipulation. They are becoming so similar in some areas its not even funny.