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Back in 5th I ran the C'tan shard, mainly due to being new to the game and thus having a lack of models, and it worked quiet well as a mid field end game unit. I used the PieShards and Moulder of world upgrades to make a shooty C'tan, while it wouldn't deal major damage it's presence would deter my opponents from moving into the mid field before dealing with it.
It would hold a whole flank with a group of immortals in support, acting as a distraction and a bullet magnet leaving my immortals to get into position or lay waste to a unit.

Toughness 7 is very good against most anti infantry weapons and with the amount of Plasma people are bringing and a ++4 save the C'tan stands a better chance of surviving that most MC's. Again I'll state the +4 armor save is just plain bad and like other Necron Elite choices it is not good enough for the points investment.

Personally I run Spyders now and get much more out of a unit of 3 for 75pts less than I ever did out of the C'tan.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Bull gak. There are plenty of nasty and competitive MC in the game. The majority of which have far reaching weapons or effects, and/or are far more mobile than a C'Tan. The C'tan are simply to slow to be competitive and their save is terrible by comparison to many other MC.

That's a bit debatable. The C'Tan has a superior invulnerable save to most MC's, and can walk through walls, so in some respects is more manuvarable then most non flying MCs. Generally speaking he's probably the best CC MC in the game (largely due to the superior Invulnerable save). Now, of course, he has to get there first.

I'd say the Dreadknight is a better at CC thanks to his strength 10, and force weapon. While a C'tan may be able to beat a Dreadknight in CC, a Dreadknight will fare better against a wider variation of opponents in CC.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Bull gak. There are plenty of nasty and competitive MC in the game. The majority of which have far reaching weapons or effects, and/or are far more mobile than a C'Tan. The C'tan are simply to slow to be competitive and their save is terrible by comparison to many other MC.

That's a bit debatable. The C'Tan has a superior invulnerable save to most MC's, and can walk through walls, so in some respects is more manuvarable then most non flying MCs. Generally speaking he's probably the best CC MC in the game (largely due to the superior Invulnerable save). Now, of course, he has to get there first.

Wowowow, slow down there. The C'tan is one of the worst MC in the game due to a terrible point-cost efficiency. A spyder has a WAY better point-cost efficiency than the C'tan could ever have. Furthermore, the model looks cool but is another disadvantage - it's so huge, you can almost never hide it. The C'tan in 6th is terribly overcosted and thus is not a competitive choice. Bring him in friendlies vs. new / not-so-good players to make the game look nice, but don't even think about using it in a proper game.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
I want to try one with Gaze of Death and Swarm of Spirit Dust. That is 255 points and gives you a Monstrous Creature with T7, 4W, a 4++ and Stealth. He also has Assault and Defensive grenades. Assault grenades are nice so then you dont lose your lovely I4 when charging through cover. He has 5 attacks on the charge at WS5 and S7. Now Gaze of Death is 50 points, but it isnt to hard to make its points back. You charge and resolve combat. After quote "all other blows in the C'tans combat have been struck, centre a large blast marker on the Shard." Then all other models (not the Shard) under the marker, includes friendlies, takes a S3 hit with no armour saxes allowed. If you cause one or more unsaved wounds then the Shard regains a wound previously lost. That happens after every combat. As well as this, if the Shard is killed, all models within D6" take a S4 AP1 hit. That is a lot of hurt. Yes Dark Eldar will murder him, but most other armies will have to dedicate their anti-tank against him, thus leaving your vehicles alone, or not target the Shard allowing him to get close and murder things. He is also a Character, he can charge a squad of say.... Space Marines, or CSM and challenge Sarge/Aspiring Champion. He horribly murders the poor guy in combat, probably with out taking a wound and then Gaze of Death kicks in. If the Sarge refuses then the rest of the squad can try to fight, but even Krak Grenades need 5's to wound.

You do realize that Assault grenades have no effect beyond giving the C'tan the option to throw one as it's immune to natural law ability allows it to ignore difficult and dangerous terrain when moving or charging? The Stealth ability will likely never come into play with the C'tan as it is very difficult to give it a cover save due to it's size and if in area terrain or open ground the C'tan will not get a better cover save than it's 4++. The only real advantage Swarm of Spirit dust has is the reduction in attacks from opponents on the charge. Lord of Fire and Pyershards are far better choices and are cheaper.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
I want to try one with Gaze of Death and Swarm of Spirit Dust. That is 255 points and gives you a Monstrous Creature with T7, 4W, a 4++ and Stealth. He also has Assault and Defensive grenades. Assault grenades are nice so then you dont lose your lovely I4 when charging through cover. He has 5 attacks on the charge at WS5 and S7. Now Gaze of Death is 50 points, but it isnt to hard to make its points back. You charge and resolve combat. After quote "all other blows in the C'tans combat have been struck, centre a large blast marker on the Shard." Then all other models (not the Shard) under the marker, includes friendlies, takes a S3 hit with no armour saxes allowed. If you cause one or more unsaved wounds then the Shard regains a wound previously lost. That happens after every combat. As well as this, if the Shard is killed, all models within D6" take a S4 AP1 hit. That is a lot of hurt. Yes Dark Eldar will murder him, but most other armies will have to dedicate their anti-tank against him, thus leaving your vehicles alone, or not target the Shard allowing him to get close and murder things. He is also a Character, he can charge a squad of say.... Space Marines, or CSM and challenge Sarge/Aspiring Champion. He horribly murders the poor guy in combat, probably with out taking a wound and then Gaze of Death kicks in. If the Sarge refuses then the rest of the squad can try to fight, but even Krak Grenades need 5's to wound.

You do realize that Assault grenades have no effect beyond giving the C'tan the option to throw one as it's immune to natural law ability allows it to ignore difficult and dangerous terrain when moving or charging? The Stealth ability will likely never come into play with the C'tan as it is very difficult to give it a cover save due to it's size and if in area terrain or open ground the C'tan will not get a better cover save than it's 4++. The only real advantage Swarm of Spirit dust has is the reduction in attacks from opponents on the charge. Lord of Fire and Pyershards are far better choices and are cheaper.

Actually assault grenades are very useful with the C'tan, because the FAQ says that even if you ignore difficult terrain you still fight an I1. So both grenades are useful, but the only time stealth will help is if it is nightfighting and the c'tan is outside of 24"

 Sigvatr wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Bull gak. There are plenty of nasty and competitive MC in the game. The majority of which have far reaching weapons or effects, and/or are far more mobile than a C'Tan. The C'tan are simply to slow to be competitive and their save is terrible by comparison to many other MC.

That's a bit debatable. The C'Tan has a superior invulnerable save to most MC's, and can walk through walls, so in some respects is more manuvarable then most non flying MCs. Generally speaking he's probably the best CC MC in the game (largely due to the superior Invulnerable save). Now, of course, he has to get there first.

Wowowow, slow down there. The C'tan is one of the worst MC in the game due to a terrible point-cost efficiency. A spyder has a WAY better point-cost efficiency than the C'tan could ever have. Furthermore, the model looks cool but is another disadvantage - it's so huge, you can almost never hide it. The C'tan in 6th is terribly overcosted and thus is not a competitive choice. Bring him in friendlies vs. new / not-so-good players to make the game look nice, but don't even think about using it in a proper game.

Bah...Sure it's expensive, but it has a chance of breaking pretty much any hammer unit. I've had it stand up to a crazy powerful CC units that I was just hoping to speed bump and come out the victor. Now that 6th is here, and it's a CHARACTER as well as an amazingly powerful MC, it can challenge, kill the character it's challenging, use gaze of death on the rest of the unit to regain wounds if necessary, and continue munching...

There were three posts about giving the C'tan stealth or shrouding, and one even touting taking Zahndrekh for the "extra stealth."
Isn't night fighting the only scenario when you can realistically expect to get a cover save better than your 4++ you already get? We are all aware that a 4+ Invul does not stack with stealth and shrouding right?
Or are we looking at covering 25% of this giant model for a 5+ then adding shrouding for the 3+?
Seems like a lot of work.
Why not spend 170 points, get 9 T6 wounds of Spyders, poop out some scarabs, repair some vehicles, deny some psychic powers and win some games?
Not a single power the C'tan get are better than Gloom Prisim or the Scarab Hive ability, and you don't need to pay 20, 30, or 40 points for them. I don't get why the internal balance is so far off here. Who knows, maybe they figure that everyone who had an old Necron army had a C'tan already, and they figured they wanted to sell the new $33 Spyder? Or the new $40 Wraiths? Or the $40 flyers?
So, I usually think every unit in a Codex is viable in that codex, but alas, the C'tan just isn't. It gets out performed by similar units in its own codex. A while back I might have been sympathetic to the ol'Gods, but after a few games, Spyders are just better.

Ok so im seeing what seems to be 2 arguements here...
1 is it viable in competitive/non-competivtive play based on its ability
and 2 is it viable when compaired to other MCs.

Ok so to give my opinion on the first arguement i say it is completely viable option as are all things in the Necrton codex (except for Flayed ones) if they are used the way they are built to be used whether it be as a Character killer a bullet spunge, or worldscape user. as an Elite choice we have a str 7 thoughness 7 MC that isnt competeing for any of our Valuable Fast attack or Heavy support options. and when picking out elite choices i only ever use deathmarks and Triarch Stalkers leaving a nice spot for a C'tan if i can afford it. Now as for its cost yes it can be point heavy but if used right they can easyly make there points back if they do what they are ment to do in the list. i prefer to take then with Gaze of death and entropic touch for Character slaying personally and i have never had a game where making their points back was an issue.

Now for the second arguement. when compairing it to other MCs of other armies yes of course you can see a few obvious failings for the C'tan but look at it this way..... ITS WHAT WE HAVE!!!!! lol we don't get access to their MCs so stop compairing and just take what you can get. And as for the compairing of Spyders Vs Shard you can't quite justify taking Spyders when they are HS and Shard is Elite where spyders are fighting for value over say a doom scythe, A. barge, or doomsday ark. since a shard is elite its not as likely to be left behind when Triarch praetorians, Lichguards and Flayed ones are not as useful. it would be better to choose a Stalker or deathmarks before shard but it still has its uses. I apolgize if some of this makes no sence but as i have to get to work i had no time to check grammer or spelling but hopefully my points made it across

Makes perfect sense. Don't worry about it.
Competition is important when dealing with a single force organization chart, I agree. If you wanted the best heavy support choices, not many arguments will be made for the Spyder. Those would obviously be the Annihilation Barge or the Doom Scythe, with the other choices falling somewhere behind them.
The real question is though, if you want a MC in your army, you have a better option that the C'tan just in the same codex. I understand they are in different slots but I am okay with that. If you had to have a monsterous creature, I would think that the heavy support slot offered a much better choice than the elite slot.
This just leaves you with the question: Is it better to lose 1 Barge or Scythe to gain the 3 Spyders? Is that better than the premium I would have to pay to get the C'tan? This wouldn't be so hard at all if the C'tan didn't cost a million points.

 Brymm wrote:
There were three posts about giving the C'tan stealth or shrouding, and one even touting taking Zahndrekh for the "extra stealth."
Isn't night fighting the only scenario when you can realistically expect to get a cover save better than your 4++ you already get? We are all aware that a 4+ Invul does not stack with stealth and shrouding right?
Or are we looking at covering 25% of this giant model for a 5+ then adding shrouding for the 3+?
Seems like a lot of work.

Zahndrekh can add stealth to a C'tan, that it for improving its save. In the open the C'tan will have a 5+ cover save when in the open and has stealth. If you are in area terrain or able to screen it with something that covers 25% like maybe the new Wraiths, it gets a 4+ cover save. Only when outside 24" and you stack Shrouding and Stealth it then gets a 3+ save. Wow, but is unable to attack anything. It can't charge anything at 24", where the C'tan excels, and it has 1 weapon that fires at that range and it is a single attack. The C'tan is actually better suited to man an Aegis Defense Line's Quad gun, as it is a character can then shoot with precision at 48" and has a BS of 7! Stealth doesn't stack with Stealth, it stacks with Shrouding but running a Storm Lord/Zahndrekh combo is as close to competitive as you can get when running the C'tan but it is a huge points sink.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
There were three posts about giving the C'tan stealth or shrouding, and one even touting taking Zahndrekh for the "extra stealth."
Isn't night fighting the only scenario when you can realistically expect to get a cover save better than your 4++ you already get? We are all aware that a 4+ Invul does not stack with stealth and shrouding right?
Or are we looking at covering 25% of this giant model for a 5+ then adding shrouding for the 3+?
Seems like a lot of work.

Zahndrekh can add stealth to a C'tan, that it for improving its save. In the open the C'tan will have a 5+ cover save when in the open and has stealth. If you are in area terrain or able to screen it with something that covers 25% like maybe the new Wraiths, it gets a 4+ cover save. Only when outside 24" and you stack Shrouding and Stealth it then gets a 3+ save. Wow, but is unable to attack anything. It can't charge anything at 24", where the C'tan excels, and it has 1 weapon that fires at that range and it is a single attack. The C'tan is actually better suited to man an Aegis Defense Line's Quad gun, as it is a character can then shoot with precision at 48" and has a BS of 7! Stealth doesn't stack with Stealth, it stacks with Shrouding but running a Storm Lord/Zahndrekh combo is as close to competitive as you can get when running the C'tan but it is a huge points sink.

This is incorrect. Stealth+Shrouding is a 2+ cover save, which is amazing, especially on an MC. Plus, with Ghost Arcs and Monoliths at our disposal, are we really scratching our heads on how to obscure a C'tan? Come on people, y'all actually play this game right?

Wowowow, slow down there. The C'tan is one of the worst MC in the game due to a terrible point-cost efficiency. A spyder has a WAY better point-cost efficiency than the C'tan could ever have. Furthermore, the model looks cool but is another disadvantage - it's so huge, you can almost never hide it. The C'tan in 6th is terribly overcosted and thus is not a competitive choice. Bring him in friendlies vs. new / not-so-good players to make the game look nice, but don't even think about using it in a proper game.

The spyder is the exception, not the rule, of MC point efficiency. Compared to most MCs (DK, Nids, Demons, etc) the C'tan is right in the ballpark. Also, most MCs don't have any transportation ability of any kind outside of wings, and no access to forced Night Fighting. It's impossible to compare the C'Tan's point efficiency without considering the toys available to him within his own Codex. I don't think it's terribly overcosted at all, giving the fact that it's on the short list of the most fearsome MCs in the game in CC. The real problem it has is the same one that all MC beat sticks face, some armies simply can deal with them quite effectively at range. However, the C'Tan can do things to counter that that most MC's can't, such as hide behind a Mono, or a 2++ cover save.

I'd say the Dreadknight is a better at CC thanks to his strength 10, and force weapon. While a C'tan may be able to beat a Dreadknight in CC, a Dreadknight will fare better against a wider variation of opponents in CC.

Fair point, it's pretty close between the two depending on the C'Tans load out. Gaze and Time's Arrow obviously make the C'Tan even more amazing in CC, probably better against both hordes and singel character beat sticks then the GK, however of course it makes him gawd awful expensive as well. You could probably throw a well tooled DP into that mix as well, if we're talking shear CC ability. That 9 WS is pretty secsie, and the Mace just wrecks shop.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Brymm wrote:
There were three posts about giving the C'tan stealth or shrouding, and one even touting taking Zahndrekh for the "extra stealth."
Isn't night fighting the only scenario when you can realistically expect to get a cover save better than your 4++ you already get? We are all aware that a 4+ Invul does not stack with stealth and shrouding right?
Or are we looking at covering 25% of this giant model for a 5+ then adding shrouding for the 3+?
Seems like a lot of work.

Zahndrekh can add stealth to a C'tan, that it for improving its save. In the open the C'tan will have a 5+ cover save when in the open and has stealth. If you are in area terrain or able to screen it with something that covers 25% like maybe the new Wraiths, it gets a 4+ cover save. Only when outside 24" and you stack Shrouding and Stealth it then gets a 3+ save. Wow, but is unable to attack anything. It can't charge anything at 24", where the C'tan excels, and it has 1 weapon that fires at that range and it is a single attack. The C'tan is actually better suited to man an Aegis Defense Line's Quad gun, as it is a character can then shoot with precision at 48" and has a BS of 7! Stealth doesn't stack with Stealth, it stacks with Shrouding but running a Storm Lord/Zahndrekh combo is as close to competitive as you can get when running the C'tan but it is a huge points sink.

This is incorrect. Stealth+Shrouding is a 2+ cover save, which is amazing, especially on an MC. Plus, with Ghost Arcs and Monoliths at our disposal, are we really scratching our heads on how to obscure a C'tan? Come on people, y'all actually play this game right?

No Stealth+Shrouding is a 3+ cover save. If it is obscured(or in area terrain)+stealth+shrouded it is a 2+ cover. Which is very difficult for a C'tan to get and if you advocate using Monoliths for competitive play, then you really don't know this game yourself. And again this amazing cover save is only when the C'tan is at a range which makes it totally ineffectual on the battlefield save for a single transdimensional thunderbolt shot at max range.

My son plays necrons and my main army is Nids.

What I'd give for a T7 MC with an invul save! Seriously, the difference between T6 and T7 is huge - melta, missiles etc only wound on 3s rather than 2s and I get a save to boot. Immune to S3 weapons as well, especialy with so much IG allied blob squads around.

Admittedly apart from writhing worldscape builds he doesn't come out very often, but the key is to build the army around him. There's no getting away from the fact he's slow, so the only CC he gets in will be when the opponent goes to him - which as Nids I tend to do ...

No Stealth+Shrouding is a 3+ cover save. If it is obscured(or in area terrain)+stealth+shrouded it is a 2+ cover. Which is very difficult for a C'tan to get and if you advocate using Monoliths for competitive play, then you really don't know this game yourself. And again this amazing cover save is only when the C'tan is at a range which makes it totally ineffectual on the battlefield save for a single transdimensional thunderbolt shot at max range.

You're still incorrect then. Stealth+Shrouding in the open is a 4+ cover save. Also, I distinctly mentioned Ghost Arcs or Monoliths. Ghost Arcs really need no defense. Monoliths provide tons of benefit to the C'Tan, so if we're going to consider one for competitive play at all, then we would be foolish not to consider the other. They compliment each other quite well. Maybe the reason you discredit the use of either is because you've never used both in conjunction? It doesn't stop there though. A-Barges and Stalkers also easily obscure the C'Tan. Really, it's somewhat baffling with all the large vehicles, not too mention large models like Wraiths, Spyders, Blades, Praetorians and Guard at the Necron's disposal, that obscuring the C'Tan would ever be considered a challenge.


The cover save is to keep the C'Tan alive until it reaches CC. With the size of the Mono you could quite easily block LOS for the C'Tan against most of the opponent's army (ie, the part that is >24" away) and obscure it against the rest. Any shooting attack provided by the C"Tan as it makes it's way up the field is just gravy at that point. Once it is in CC, mission accomplished.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Maybe the reason you discredit the use of either is because you've never used both in conjunction?

. No you are talking to probably one of the only people who owned(s) 3 c"tan and 4 Monoliths before the 5th edition Codex even came out. I've tried all army builds with them and only ever won one game with them. They are both uncompetitive and attempting to screen them with large vehicles, save for maybe the worthless Monoliths, is pointless considering how highly mobile many competitive armies out there are. DP Blood Angels, DE units in general, parking lots of guard, or any unit that can DS or OF are going to shoot first and have a good chance at killing or at least putting several wounds on C'tan without it ever making any cover saves better than it's already invulnerable one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ruminator wrote:
My son plays necrons and my main army is Nids.

What I'd give for a T7 MC with an invul save! Seriously, the difference between T6 and T7 is huge - melta, missiles etc only wound on 3s rather than 2s and I get a save to boot. Immune to S3 weapons as well, especialy with so much IG allied blob squads around.

Admittedly apart from writhing worldscape builds he doesn't come out very often, but the key is to build the army around him. There's no getting away from the fact he's slow, so the only CC he gets in will be when the opponent goes to him - which as Nids I tend to do ...

The change in toughness doesn't matter when you are being hit by small arms fire(s4 specifically), if it were t8 like it used to be you would have a point but even that isn't taking into account poisonous weapons. However wounding them on 2's or 3's doesn't matter as most high strength weapons have acces to some type of reroll to hit so they are very likely to hit the majority of the time and get at least 2-3 turns of shots on it before it can attack back. And that is if it isn't swarmed with s4 or better charging units or torrents of fire by enemy weapons and or another MC or walker.

I'll chime in as a long time Cron player. For the shards are usable but hardly competitive. They are dragged down by weight of fire pretty easily with only a 4+ save and they hardly throw out a ton of attacks in CC which limits their effectiveness. When I do bring one, however, I run at as follows:

C'tan (250): Pyre Shards, Gaze of Death.

The Pyreshards allow me to potentially snipe models out of a unit and the gaze helps deal with being bogged down by hordes.

Ultimately, however, I find the shards just too slow and vulnerable to mass fire to be a competitive choice, although they often unnecessarily scare people so I suppose there is a psychological advantage.

I have seen a lot of posts about why c'tan aren't competitive in 6th, and why they are outclassed or outperformed by other units in the codex.
While partly true, there are units that can fill certain roles better than a c'tan, none fill the role of an MC/character hunter/distraction unit all in one better.
I have been playing MC spam with my necrons,my lists including always 3 c'tan shards and 6-9 spyders backed with scarab swarms.And despite the lists lack of anti-air is has been extremely successful.more so against elite armies like space marines and GK's.

It all comes down to how they are applied on the battlefield.and when i use them i use waves or layered attacks, its crucial to their effectiveness.
Scarabs are used to tarpit and tie units up, with or without support fire from my warriors, and then i decide if my c'tan is needed to jump in and mop up the offenders or if i should just charge with my spyder groups.

*The Shards best use is to march along side the rest of my army soaking up all the enemies fire while acting as a bodyguard.People percieve them as an immeadiate threat, and target them.And if they don't target the c'tan it will continue its long sojourn to the enemies gates and smash them down*

People keep saying "Oh, it's only got a 4+ invulnerable save" and I'm sitting here my Nids wondering what it's like to have invulnerable saves.

You probably refer to it as FNP.

It is true that 4++ is really beefy when fighting other MCs but in general use it means he dies easier to splinter rifle fire than space marines. The C'tan when used correctly ( Ie. beating the sh$% out of a hive tyrant) can be quite good but often the lack of speed and vulnerability to small arms fire plus overall cost makes the model overall not that great.

Corollax wrote:
You probably refer to it as FNP.

4+ always on FNP? Sounds wonderful.

It's pretty nice. They don't get psyker powers though, which is kinda a bummer. I'd say you're probably better off.

Like everyone else i' afraid the awnser is no...

Competative wise it's way too many points, it dies faster than any other unit in the book, Wraiths, Scarabs, and Destroyer Lords are much better CC options, and deathmarks are much better elite choices...

Now as for friendly games i say go ahead!

Well, let's look at the kinds of MCs that exist, and ones people are taking nowadays. In no particular order:

Dreadknight
Dreadknights are CC monsters like the C'tan, with a better armor save and a worse invuln. It dies so easily to plasma it's either funny or not funny, depending on whether you're running the DK. Why is the DK used? Because it's got a good ranged weapon in the Heavy Incinerator, great CC power, and mobility. The jump pack + Shunt is what allows it get get into combat where its S10 rerolling everything attacks kill stuff.

Tervigon
Tervigons don't have the mobility of a DK, and no invulnerable save, but have something critical that the C'tan doesn't really have: Force Multiplication. Tervigons make the whole Tyranid army better, and/or can just Biomancy for nasty stuff. C'tan generally don't buff your army.

Flying Hive Tyrant/Bloodthirster/Lord of Change
These are flying monstrous creatures. They have the advantages of mobility, that also aids their survivability. The flyrant has great ranged power. the Bloodthirster just eats things up, and the LoC has divination buffs. All of them can wreak havoc in CC.

Great Unclean One
This guy just won't die. Why, when he has a worse save and equal T? He survives because he's got Biomancy and Shrouded, so he'll often be T 8-10 with a 2+ cover save. Biomancy also buffs up other stuff.

Keeper of Secrets
These guys are much less survivable than the C'tan, why are they taken? They're fast, is why. The extra run moves + fleet means that it, plus the rest of the threats in a Slaanesh army, make it into CC without having to slog through so much shooting.

Daemon Prince + Black Mace
This guy combines mobility and amazing CC power. The black mace basically means he's deleting whatever squad he hits, and his FMC nature means that his lackluster T5/no EW is less of a hindrance than it could be.

Riptide
This guy has as good or better survivability than a DK, and stands back and shoots.

Wraithlord
We don't see him taken much, even though he's criminally cheap and can have some good ranged threat. Why? He's got no mobility, and his ranged weapons aren't that amazing, unlike the Riptide.



The C'tan has middle of the road survivability. the 4++ means that you're better against plasma than other MCs, but your suckier armor save means that stuff like autocannons and assault cannons work better on you. The C'tan is good in CC, but look at the other MCs on this list. All of them (barring the Riptide) are also good in CC.

So people don't take MCs just because they're survivable and have good CC. They take them because on top of the advantages that MCs have, the ones taken have something else: either mobility, ranged threat, or force multiplication. Furthermore, those MCs that are taken are typically taken with other threats, because even good survivability can get shot if you're the only target. One DK is okay, but a firemagnet. Two is good.

The C'tan doesn't really bring much to the battlefield aside from being a MC. Just bringing one is setting yourself up for failure. The ways I can think of to make them viable would be:

Take multiples. This would at least give your opponent more threats, still slow-moving though. This is also problematic, as you can't have multiples of the same power in your army, rendering it impossible to be redundant in capabilities.

Give them the powers that affect the general battle. This is tough, as most of the C'tan powers are CC shenanigans. The ones to think of are Grand Illusion and Writhing Worldscape. Grand Illusion is nice, but doesn't affect the battle after it starts. Writhing Worldscape has been written about a lot, but isn't that effective in the grand scheme of things, especially when you can now take armor saves against it.

Give them shooting powers. Probably Moulder of Worlds + Pyreshards, because the Lascannon (Transdimensional Thunderbolt) doesn't really mesh with the other attacks. This at least lets you get a bunch of S4 shots + Large blast into something, most of which should hit due to his BS5.

So, if you want to spam C'tan and try to make them viable, I'd suggest:
One with Moulder of Worlds + Pyreshards.
One with Transdimensional Thunderbolt + Writhing Worldscape.
One with Swarm of Spirit Dust + Grand Illusion.

I'd also run a scarab farm with Spyders to get more MCs in there for a faux-Necronzilla, and probably a wraithstar (6 Wraiths + Tricked out DLord) and maybe Orikan, just to have the dangerous terrain cheese. If you get enough things that are more threatening than the three C'tan, then they can be viable. That's not very positive, but as far as I've done the analysis, them's the breaks.


tl;dr people don't take Monstrous Creatures just for the MC benefits, they take them because they do other stuff. C'tan generally don't do any of that other stuff well or at all, thus people generally don't take them.

I don't know about you, but I take MCs because RAWR, TYRANT SMASH PUNY HUMANS. In all seriousness though, Thariinye has it right, you need a tactical use for your MC, just as you would any other unit.

A combat C'tan (Gaze of death and Time's arrow) works well against Grey Knights, even a Dreadknight can't easily deal with it as it is unlikely to kill it in one turn, allowing it to keep trying time's arrow again and again until it sticks. My GK friends best solution to it is to throw a 5man strike squad with 4 hammers and a staff, backed up by a Librarian with a hammer and quicksilver to kill it before it strikes, but at this point they are throwing far more points at it than it is worth and making an extremely specialised squad that is much weaker at range, easy prey for destroyers or tombblades

The C'tan's slow movement is what really kills it for me; if it moved 12" a turn they might be worth taking.

Besides, it doesn't really make any sense that a demi-god that can warp reality would move at the same speed as infantry. Can't they fly? The deceiver and nightbringer certainly looks like they are flying.

We were all hoping for a new C'tan in Imperial Armor 12 (possibly a Void Dragon-esque build with wings? FMC option, maybe?)
...
of all the disappointments that book held (no new superheavy, no titan, no etc etc), that one stung the most.

I feel like the C'tan was designed for killing characters, and that's it. You can use a Monolith to get it across the board, then charge next turn, throwing out Pyreshards and Particle Whips on whatever you're wanting to charge. They are slow, but ten again, so is the Swarmlord and Skarbrand.

 McNinja wrote:
I feel like the C'tan was designed for killing characters, and that's it. You can use a Monolith to get it across the board, then charge next turn, throwing out Pyreshards and Particle Whips on whatever you're wanting to charge. They are slow, but ten again, so is the Swarmlord and Skarbrand.

Yeah, pity the monolith moves at a snail pace. You can ds it, but then it may land on a grot and blow up. Or even worse, in front of a bunch of meltas.