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Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Every once in a while I'll bring a C'Tan, just because I've often found the most effective strategy is to throw a wrench into your opponent's plan by bringing something completely unexpected.

And nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Nightbringer!
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




I ran a C'tan Shard with Lord of Fire and Gaze of Death in a 1500pt match last night, against Space Wolves. Opponent podded two Terminator squads (one with Arjac) in to my deployment zone, and the Shard wiped them out over the course of two/three turns without taking any wounds.

While I think that's pretty great -- it made its points back and then some -- I got lucky in that his squad of Long Fangs weren't able to shoot at it before it got into an assault.

I'm going to use it in a few more games down the road to concrete my opinion, but right now I feel like there may be something to it.
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 McNinja wrote:
I feel like the C'tan was designed for killing characters, and that's it. You can use a Monolith to get it across the board, then charge next turn, throwing out Pyreshards and Particle Whips on whatever you're wanting to charge. They are slow, but ten again, so is the Swarmlord and Skarbrand.
I agree with them being character killers. I was able to kill Mephiston and the Sanguinar with a pair of C'tan and a squad do Wraiths, in a league final by tailoring my list with C'tan. But a good general hides its characters and uses mass fire instead against the C'tan. Using the Monolith is pointless with the C'tan. They will not see combat until turn 3 if you deploy through the portal and you risk the deep strike issues with Monoliths that are already lack luster and that make your already expensive list, more so and you greatly reduce the amount of boots on the ground.
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Writhing worldscape and manning a quad gun behind an ADL. He's just too slow otherwise.

"We didn't underestimate them but they were a lot better than we thought."
Sir Bobby Robson 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 ruminator wrote:
Writhing worldscape and manning a quad gun behind an ADL. He's just too slow otherwise.
And a cheap Lord of Fire ability because it is more useful for a C'Tan than Entropic Strike. Best use of a C'tan, by far, is right behind a quad Gun.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 NecronLord3 wrote:
 ruminator wrote:
Writhing worldscape and manning a quad gun behind an ADL. He's just too slow otherwise.
And a cheap Lord of Fire ability because it is more useful for a C'Tan than Entropic Strike. Best use of a C'tan, by far, is right behind a quad Gun.


Not really. Lord of fire is only 12" range, and a opponent can easily get around that. If it were 18-24" range, then it might be useful.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





Its too many points. You need to kill enough points to make back its cost, which is difficult most of the time. Sure, you could get lucky sometimes and enough, but most of the time, you won't.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Eldenfirefly wrote:
Its too many points. You need to kill enough points to make back its cost, which is difficult most of the time. Sure, you could get lucky sometimes and enough, but most of the time, you won't.



It's not really about it "making it's points back," its about whether or not it helps you claim, capture, or contest objectives. The answer to that will depend on the list that it is in.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Its too many points. You need to kill enough points to make back its cost, which is difficult most of the time. Sure, you could get lucky sometimes and enough, but most of the time, you won't.


People always say this, and while it's nice to make your points back, you can kill all you want and still lose, objective capturing/denying and positional advantage matter much more than killing things in 40k 5/6 games.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





But the Ctan can't capture objectives either because its elite. And precisely because it takes up so many points, then that's less points you have to spend on stuff like troops which can take objectives.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

But it is a big scary MC and you can use it to create positional dominance by forcing your opponent to avoid getting within its threat radius, denying your opponent objectives and making it easier for your troops to capture objectives unimpeded.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





LaPorte, IN

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 NecronLord3 wrote:
 ruminator wrote:
Writhing worldscape and manning a quad gun behind an ADL. He's just too slow otherwise.
And a cheap Lord of Fire ability because it is more useful for a C'Tan than Entropic Strike. Best use of a C'tan, by far, is right behind a quad Gun.


Not really. Lord of fire is only 12" range, and a opponent can easily get around that. If it were 18-24" range, then it might be useful.
yes but it is one of the two cheapest C'tan powers, that you are obligated to take, and you want to minimize the C'tans cost if you plan to have him man the Quad gun. Hell, you could just take a C'tan with entropic strike and Lord of Fire for the cheapest possible C'tan. But I prefer his WWS.
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





 PrinceRaven wrote:
But it is a big scary MC and you can use it to create positional dominance by forcing your opponent to avoid getting within its threat radius, denying your opponent objectives and making it easier for your troops to capture objectives unimpeded.


Well, for the same point cost, you could take a 6 wraith wing with spare points and do exactly the same thing except that now, the wraithwing is a lot more mobile than the Ctan shard. so its potential threat radius is a lot bigger.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Eldenfirefly wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
But it is a big scary MC and you can use it to create positional dominance by forcing your opponent to avoid getting within its threat radius, denying your opponent objectives and making it easier for your troops to capture objectives unimpeded.


Well, for the same point cost, you could take a 6 wraith wing with spare points and do exactly the same thing except that now, the wraithwing is a lot more mobile than the Ctan shard. so its potential threat radius is a lot bigger.


Which is why people field Wraiths instead of C'tan Shards.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





/thread

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 NecronLord3 wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 NecronLord3 wrote:
 ruminator wrote:
Writhing worldscape and manning a quad gun behind an ADL. He's just too slow otherwise.
And a cheap Lord of Fire ability because it is more useful for a C'Tan than Entropic Strike. Best use of a C'tan, by far, is right behind a quad Gun.


Not really. Lord of fire is only 12" range, and a opponent can easily get around that. If it were 18-24" range, then it might be useful.
yes but it is one of the two cheapest C'tan powers, that you are obligated to take, and you want to minimize the C'tans cost if you plan to have him man the Quad gun. Hell, you could just take a C'tan with entropic strike and Lord of Fire for the cheapest possible C'tan. But I prefer his WWS.


Oh, it certainly is cheap. Doesn't mean its useful though.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in nl
Loyal Necron Lychguard



Netherlands

Hmm, three pages?

The OP asked if they were worth bringing in a competitive list.
I think we can all agree that the answer would be 'No.'?

But that is not going to stop me from bringing them to friendly games.
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





I want to see someone make an army using nothing but C'tan Shards, Flayed Ones, Monoliths, and a bunch of Warriors (with Sezras as HQ).
It would be the most hilariously bad list ever made... so bad it's good?

 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer






C'Tan just need the same rules as the Tombstalker, that is that everything that wounds them on a fixed value will only wound them on a 6+ and they will be playable. otherwise they need a price drop.

Still hoping we ever get a Greater shard more akin to the Gargantuan Deamons for appocalypse

You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things

And we shall do so again.

4500 pts


 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






Threads like this one are why I dislike forums. Most peeps are saying C'tans aren't competitive, but seem to be doing so only because they appear to be inefficient points-wise. Others are saying that they use them, and when doing so they do amazing things, but they still consider them "friendly game only." I disagree with both camps. Depending upon how you play and what you need from your list, it can be a great addition to your army...even in a competitive setting.

A great response from someone above points out that you can get 6 wraiths for the same cost as a Ctan, and that seems pretty damning, as I personally use both units in a similar fashion (primarily to tie up incoming hammer units) and the wraiths are soooo much faster. However, I've had similar experiences as Drakmord laid out above, a Death's gaze Ctan getting into assault with a insanely strong hammer unit and coming out on top, multiple times. My wraiths, when tasked with speed bumping similar units, perform well enough, but almost never come out on top.

Is the performance difference against super-elite assault units worth losing the added mobility when spending those 230-250 points? Most likely not always, but it's not as if it's ever a bad thing to have on the table. A fearless WS5 T7 MC with Eternal Warrior and the ability to regen wounds is always welcome on the table. If it dies, it's because your opponent spent the appropriate amount of resources to do so. If it wasn't the Ctan going down, it would have been 250+ pts of other units going down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 14:10:00


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Gaze of death works in CC though...how do you get him in close combat without him getting shot up?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/16 14:52:31


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in jp
Proud Triarch Praetorian





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gaze of death works in CC though...how do you get him in close combat without him getting shot up?
Same problem Lychguard have: no reliable method to quickly / safely get them where they need to go AND allow them to assault.
You are limited to walking all the way there (so they'll get shot while doing so) or deep striking them in via Monolith (as they can't utilize Nightscythes or Despair-tek Veil of Darkness tricks), where they'll be sitting ducks for an entire turn.

 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gaze of death works in CC though...how do you get him in close combat without him getting shot up?


It's true that 6th Edition is all about shooting, but almost every army out there still fields at least one super aggressive unit that needs to get in your face. If you deploy your forces in such a way that the Ctan is the first in line for whatever comes your way, it's more than likely that something in your opponent's army will be coming towards you as the Ctan moves towards it...

As for getting shot up...define shot up. If you mean a bunch of bolter fire, it takes 20 bolter rounds to reliably wound the C'tan. If you're talking Dark Eldar or Sterngard Vets, those are hard counters but you won't be facing them all that often. If you're talking S7 and higher shots...awesome, now my Anni Barges and other vehicles are remaining unmolested. Really, the only time I've had my C'tan totally torched was when I played Necrons and a few Anni-barges rolled hot Tesla dice. Every other time I've ran my C'tan, he's weathered a ton of incoming fire, got into assault, and started regenerating the wounds he'd lost. The few times I've played Dark Eldar, I don't recall using my C'tan, but I'm sure it would have been a bad day for him.

The overriding fact to all of this is that the C'tan truly is a monster on the field no matter what it's shortcomings. The opponent knows he has to deal with it before it gets into his lines, and the amount of resources he'll spend attempting to drop it really frees up the rest of your army. Wraiths provide a very similar role in Necron armies and are far more mobile, which is why I ALWAYS run 6 wraiths and only sometimes use the C'tan, but my hesitation to use the C'tan is rooted only in the massive negative propaganda campaign leveled against it and not from my positive experiences fielding it.
   
Made in au
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

Exactly, the problem isn't that the C'tan Shard is bad, it's actually pretty decent, the problem it has competition from one of the most powerful units in the codex.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





You can stay out of the way of a C'tan, just like you can keep on moving away from a storm shield hammer unit and firing at it. Units with 12 inch move will never get caught by a C'tan. A unit of 6 Wraiths though, that you have to fight, because its unlikely you can stay out of its way if its determined to pick a fight with you (unless you are a flier or a jetbike).

People with hammer units that use it to charge the C'tan probably don't believe their hammer units will lose, hence they charge it.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 Voidwraith wrote:

The overriding fact to all of this is that the C'tan truly is a monster on the field no matter what it's shortcomings. The opponent knows he has to deal with it before it gets into his lines, and the amount of resources he'll spend attempting to drop it really frees up the rest of your army. Wraiths provide a very similar role in Necron armies and are far more mobile, which is why I ALWAYS run 6 wraiths and only sometimes use the C'tan, but my hesitation to use the C'tan is rooted only in the massive negative propaganda campaign leveled against it and not from my positive experiences fielding it.


Once again, C'tan can be used in a Necron list, and can do things. We are (at least I am) not saying that they don't mulch things in combat or are somewhat survivable. The thing is that they don't bring much to the table beyond the normal things that a monstrous creature brings, which is CC ability against elite units, and high survivability for a single model from high toughness and/or good saves. The reasons people take MCs is for the other strategic benefits they provide to the army. A bloodthirster can slaughter about as good as a C'tan against most things, and has the benefit of being able to get into the fights it wants instead of the fights the enemy wants.

Here's the thing. MCs don't actually get a lot of attacks, so they have the walker problem where they just kill a few dudes each combat, and get stuck in for a long time. Their AP2 means that, in fact, opponents who throw their powerful units against it in melee are often coming out worse. You stop a C'tan by shooting it or by tarpitting it, and it's hilariously easy to tarpit it. Sure Gaze of Death will mean it will chug through more than the usual, but, in all honesty, the things people are tarpitting with now will still tarpit a C'tan.

Let's go through some tarpits people use (I'm just going off the top of my head here, some may be missing, and some odd ones may be included):

Mobz of Boyz
You'll kill a lot of them each turn, that is true, but it'll take a long while before they're not fearless, and they can afford to throw boyz at a problem. Either that or just shoot it with Lootaz, which will destroy a C'tan.

6 Wraiths w/ DLord
If the DLord doesn't make it hit itself, all those S6 and S7 attacks will still do a lot, and the Gaze isn't hurting that bad. They're worth more points than the C'tan, but are way more flexible.

Spawn w/ Juggerlord
Spawn aren't going to care about S3 wounds. You'll have to smash to kill them, and then you're on average killing, what, one a phase?

Zombies
You'll kill lots of Zombies, like Boyz, but FnP will keep a lot of them in the fight, and they'll never leave.

Lone Wolf
He'll tie up a C'tan for a few phases at least, and potentially do a wound or two. He's also less than half the C'tan's value.

A C'tan w/ Gaze of Death wants to be in combat with elite units like Terminators (even potentially TH/SS Terminators). AP2 means that you get through quite a lot, and you have the wounds to deal with a few high strength low AP attacks. Gaze of Death likes Low Toughness elite enemies like Terminators. There is a tactical use for an anti-elite melee unit like the C'tan. The problems with doing it with a C'tan shard are twofold -- first, you're relying on the enemy to bring the elite unit to you, since you don't have the maneuverability to pick which fights your C'tan gets in. Second, the general better way to deal with elite units is to shoot them; Necrons do shooty very very well. C'tan shards are cool models, and if you can make them work on the tabletop, more power to you. However, at least to me, they don't fulfill any tactical purpose in a Necron army that isn't better filled by Wraiths or Allies.






   
 
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