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 Arcsquad12 wrote:

Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

Did they do that in books too? I don't remember reading this...

 Kaldor wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

Space Marines also fight untrained cultists and get killed. Are you saying a Spartan is slower than a cultist?

That's rare, only one in million maybe is lucky enough to kill him. Same with SPARTANS, how many of them were killed by those small Covenant xenos?

200 Dark Angels were killed by Cultists in a single engagement on Vraks.

How many Cultists? And ones that had access to a gigantic weapons stockpile, being armed to the teeth?

 Kaldor wrote:
200 Dark Angels were killed by Cultists in a single engagement on Vraks.

It's important to keep in mind that if you accept FW fluff, a Leman Russ or even Land Raider is radically inferior to an M1 Abrams, autoguns are worse than modern assault rifles, etc. FW is a modelmaking company and has shown a distinct lack of ability to get either rules or fluff details right.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
A basic Imperial Guardsman can kill a Marine if he hit the marine in the right spot.

With his bare hands? I'd like to see you prove that statement.

A Spartan is equal or at least almost as strong in strength as a Marine.

Based on?

common sense on the first part. Im sorry I have no evidence to support it beyond saying that marines are not made of adamantium, they still have vital organs that can be destroyed with enough force. I doubt there is a single recorded incident of what I said. I mean you can kill a marine with a guardsman with his rifle when the marine has armor on, so logically a lucky hit on the right spot could drop an unarmored marine


The second part is common sense. Both are genetically advanced so they have super human strength, that is fact anyone reading any material will encounter. Both sources have incidents of the soldiers pushing things that a normal human simply cant do. It is safe to assume that a Spartan is equal to or at least ALMOST as strong as a marine. A marine could still be stronger, ya, I am not going to go and luck up the numbers on a random wiki on exactly how much both guys can bench press. Its also worth noting that at certan points, one person being stronger doesnt mean too much. If one person can hit with the number of 7.8 force and the other guy with 7.9, the second guy is stronger but that .1 isnt going to make that big of a difference in a boxing match.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

200 Dark Angels were killed by Cultists in a single engagement on Vraks.

How many Cultists? And ones that had access to a gigantic weapons stockpile, being armed to the teeth?

This is so wrong.... those Dark Angels were killed not by Vraksian militia but by Alpha Legion Legionaries, they had much more marines than Dark Angels and of course that Dark Angels suffered losses because of that,. Cultist didn't have anything to do with those 200 Dark Angels - Dark Angels already secured the space port when Alpha Legion counter attacked. The counter attack lasted for several days and it was brutal, brutal to the point where Azrael himself almost lost his life if not for Interrogator Chaplain Belphegor who was with him.

The Dark Angels lost 200 battle brothers to Alpha Legion - not Vraksian Militia.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

Did they do that in books too? I don't remember reading this...

Perhaps not. Other sources state that Spartans can lift three times their body weight, though it isn't stated whether this is in armor or out. Will-043 was able to kill a Hunter with his bare hands, ripping off the armor plating and tearing out the lekgolo worms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

200 Dark Angels were killed by Cultists in a single engagement on Vraks.

How many Cultists? And ones that had access to a gigantic weapons stockpile, being armed to the teeth?

This is so wrong.... those Dark Angels were killed not by Vraksian militia but by Alpha Legion Legionaries, they had much more marines than Dark Angels and of course that Dark Angels suffered losses because of that,. Cultist didn't have anything to do with those 200 Dark Angels - Dark Angels already secured the space port when Alpha Legion counter attacked. The counter attack lasted for several days and it was brutal, brutal to the point where Azrael himself almost lost his life if not for Interrogator Chaplain Belphegor who was with him.

The Dark Angels lost 200 battle brothers to Alpha Legion - not Vraksian Militia.

Okay then. I'm not too familiar with Vraks beyond the cultists highjacking the munitions warehouses and having an arsenal that would make an Ork blush. Didn't know about the Alpha Legionnaires.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

Did they do that in books too? I don't remember reading this...

Actually I think one does it in passing or something. I dont feel like looking it up but they mention that Sam (the strongest Spartan) could probably do but he had never actually tried it before. It was speculation on the Master Chief's part.


Thats IF I remember it correctly. Flipping a tank is the game is a gameplay mechanic and should not be factored into the conversation here

 Omegus wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The OP asked about unarmored fight. Kinda a bar room brawl, the Sm does have size and str on his side for sure. The one and only advantage a spartan has is speed, if he gives the Sm a single opening he is dead. Likewise with the speed there if the Sm makes a mistake he is likely dead.

I don't think an unarmed Spartan could inflict the damage required to kill a Space Marine.

In Emperors Mercy, After the Blood Gorgon is chasing after the speeder, The main character hits the blood Gorgon in the perfect area with just enough strength to kill it in one hit... This is with the Blood Gorgon in armor too... I believe inquisitors are still human and this was with a regular arm. Not a pf or a pw just a regular arm, I could be wrong since I havent read it in awhile but I do know it was a one hit kill through armour. If an inquisitor can do it why not a spartan?

Jesus....everyone in this post needs to get laid.....

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

The Reactive Metal Liquid Crystal Layer of a Spartan's Mjolnir suit doubles their physical strength, which is clocked at three times their body weight.

It's a gameplay mechanic, lol.

Also Covenant use complete plasma weapons, In dow 2 retribution trailer you see terminators going down to plasma shots to the head.

Someone said that they couldnt make that many spartans and that space marines make alot of them... Halo has a smaller universe. Humanity is not a galactic thing, this is like a sector thing, significantly smaller.

 Omegus wrote:

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
The OP asked about unarmored fight. Kinda a bar room brawl, the Sm does have size and str on his side for sure. The one and only advantage a spartan has is speed, if he gives the Sm a single opening he is dead. Likewise with the speed there if the Sm makes a mistake he is likely dead.

I don't think an unarmed Spartan could inflict the damage required to kill a Space Marine.

Guardsmen and cultist kill Sm often enough. A Spartan can lift 3 times his body weight, knows how to kill with bare hands, moves with the speed of thought , sees everyone in slow motion and has unbreakable bones. Yeah a Spartan could inflict damage, even lethal damage.

 Galdos wrote:
common sense on the first part. Im sorry I have no evidence to support it beyond saying that marines are not made of adamantium, they still have vital organs that can be destroyed with enough force. I doubt there is a single recorded incident of what I said. I mean you can kill a marine with a guardsman with his rifle when the marine has armor on, so logically a lucky hit on the right spot could drop an unarmored marine

With their bare hands?

They typically use bayonets or combat knives with monomolecular edges in combat bub.

The second part is common sense. Both are genetically advanced so they have super human strength, that is fact anyone reading any material will encounter. Both sources have incidents of the soldiers pushing things that a normal human simply cant do. It is safe to assume that a Spartan is equal to or at least ALMOST as strong as a marine. A marine could still be stronger, ya, I am not going to go and luck up the numbers on a random wiki on exactly how much both guys can bench press. Its also worth noting that at certan points, one person being stronger doesnt mean too much. If one person can hit with the number of 7.8 force and the other guy with 7.9, the second guy is stronger but that .1 isnt going to make that big of a difference in a boxing match.

They are both genetically advanced so they have superhuman strength huh? That also describes the Primarchs. Are they also as strong as Spartans and Marines?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

The Reactive Metal Liquid Crystal Layer of a Spartan's Mjolnir suit doubles their physical strength, which is clocked at three times their body weight.

It's a gameplay mechanic, lol.

Okay, now we go to this point: wounds.

Do Spartans have any sort of regenerative system or healing system outside of their armor? MJOLNIR suits have the biofoam injectors that automatically seal wounds and flood the injury with painkillers. Outside of Power Armor, Astartes have the Larraman's Organ that immediately clots wounds with scar tissue. That's assuming you pierce their tough flesh to begin with.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Based on the fact that they can flip tanks upright, as can Space Marines. How many times have you flipped a Scorpion just to turn it over again?

The Reactive Metal Liquid Crystal Layer of a Spartan's Mjolnir suit doubles their physical strength, which is clocked at three times their body weight.

It's a gameplay mechanic, lol.

Okay, now we go to this point: wounds.

Do Spartans have any sort of regenerative system or healing system outside of their armor? MJOLNIR suits have the biofoam injectors that automatically seal wounds and flood the injury with painkillers. Outside of Power Armor, Astartes have the Larraman's Organ that immediately clots wounds with scar tissue. That's assuming you pierce their tough flesh to begin with.

There are ways to kill without breaking skin. Larraman cells only work with contact to air, I believe.

@ VD The Primarchs were created by the Eom so they were never human to begin with so no they are above spartans and marines.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
common sense on the first part. Im sorry I have no evidence to support it beyond saying that marines are not made of adamantium, they still have vital organs that can be destroyed with enough force. I doubt there is a single recorded incident of what I said. I mean you can kill a marine with a guardsman with his rifle when the marine has armor on, so logically a lucky hit on the right spot could drop an unarmored marine

With their bare hands?

They typically use bayonets or combat knives with monomolecular edges in combat bub.

Not every guy has his bayonet ready or has a knife ready. Sometimes they just have their butstocks because they just didnt have time for anything else. Ya its not their bare hands per say but again, if you can kill a marine with a blunt object when he has armor, you can kill him with your hands without it. You just need to be lucky.

They are both genetically advanced so they have superhuman strength huh? That also describes the Primarchs. Are they also as strong as Spartans and Marines?

What?
Yes, thats kind of obvious... especially when sources say "they have super human strength" Generally when someone is described to have super human strength in scifi they have super human strength.

You are correct, the Primarchs do indeed have super human strength, in fact the Primarchs are even stronger

Seriously I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
Again this thread?

They are both superhumans, defenders of Mankind and able to do some really OTT things like jumping from the stratosphere and surviving crash into the planet and killing things that are able to cut trough meter thick armor like hot knife through butter.

Like I said earlier in this topic, if you want to see who will win out se their achievements and enemies. Spartans were fighting only Covenant and that was for less under 100 years.
Space Marines are fighting Orks/Tyranids/Necrons/Tau/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Daemons/Their fallen brethren/many other things for the last 10.000 years.

And unlike Spartans, Astartes were actually able in keeping the Imperium safe and much of Mankind intact ( while Spartans almost lose Earth and the rest of Mankind wit hit, just saying... ).

Now i don't think thats a fare Judgment , after the Spartan 2 Program their was something like 170 Able Bodied Spartans for combat duty , as combat went on 25ish years that number greatly decreased and the teams were further spread our , Space Marines have 38,000 Years of Tech on the Spartans and FAR superior numbers -- I would say given the situation at hand the Spartans did a Damn fine job ,

In the end like people said the only advantage Sparatns had over Astartes is speed ( witch is probably true giving that their armor is not heavy like the Astartes one ) but I never looked that as much of an issue for Astartes. It's because they are able to fight and win against the Eldar to whom normal Humans live in slow-motion.
Or are you guys seriously telling me that Spartans are faster then Eldar?

I would Actually Venture to say that Spartans are most likly the Same Speed as Striking Scorpions ( havn't read the book in a while ) but are far more durable

willhman wrote:
@ VD The Primarchs were created by the Eom so they were never human to begin with so no they are above spartans and marines.

A valid point, but completely ignores the fallacy of logic I was pointing out, namely the assumption that just because both are enhanced humans, does not mean they have equal strength increase.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
It's not my fanboyism, I know that because I played Halo. Even if SPARTANS are on pair when it comes to enchantments ( but I doubt that Chief could survive long under water or in vacuum of space ) I do not believe they have better armor ( Astartes armor can deflect tank shots even if it's weak in joints ) and I am not even going to start on weapons ( Assault Rifle vs. Bolter - you make the call ).
Even SPARTAN shields are weak, they are gone in one to three plasma shots.
I ma not even going to mention close combat, I can't remember how many times Elites with plasma sword kill me in one hit at full shields...
People are also argumenting that SPARTANS are tough because they can flip over a tank, Astartes can go trough tank with power fist or power axe.

I every other category Astartes are superior,
-They are immortal ( not sure for SPARTANS but I am pretty much sure they aren't since that was never mentioned ).
-They can lose much of their body and still fight on.
-They can fight more terrifying foes and being in more desperate situations and still emerge victorious.
-Some of them can cast psychic powers.
-They can yield more heavily weapons ( while SPARTANS can yield missile launchers I would love to see them yield MBT's cannon and Plasma Cannons ).

It's not fanboyism but reality.

No its Fanboyism , The Games are no where near the actualy Sci-Fi Aspect , Its all in the books , the Spartan Sheilds in the books can survive up to 4 Fuel Rod cannon shots , the Sheilds wern't designed to prevent Melee attacks because they are to stop fast moving objects such as Ballistics . Spartans would just have a much longer lifespan same as Marines , And the Reason they have more heavy weapons is " By god more tech " The Space Marines have 38,000 years on the Spartans , if the Spartans had access to it im sure they'd use it , if your going to make an argument know a bit about the cannon please
Even if Astartes and SPARTANS are matched in close combat ( even there it's not a fair fight giving what their standard armament are and what kind of weapons can either yield ) in close combat the Astartes are champions ( just put any SPARTAN against Khorne Berzerker or Death Company marine and see how long the SPARTAN will last ). As for everything else Astartes are far better ( SPARTANS do not have their own fighting force, their own vehicles and walkers, their own fleets... ).

But truth be told I love either one of them, they are both protectors and defenders of Mankind even if they are so different from one another,

 Galdos wrote:
Not every guy has his bayonet ready or has a knife ready. Sometimes they just have their butstocks because they just didnt have time for anything else. Ya its not their bare hands per say but again, if you can kill a marine with a blunt object when he has armor, you can kill him with your hands without it. You just need to be lucky.

Now all you need to do is prove that a guardsman with a butstock can kill a Marine.

What?
Yes, thats kind of obvious... especially when sources say "they have super human strength" Generally when someone is described to have super human strength in scifi they have super human strength.

You are correct, the Primarchs do indeed have super human strength, in fact the Primarchs are even stronger

Seriously I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Characters with superhuman strength are not equal.

There is a big difference between Superman and Spiderman, and a difference between a Space Marine and a Spartan, though the difference is not as huge as the previous one.

Eh ya know spider man is prob almost as strong as a SM, he can lift a few tons( how many I forget)

Spiderman is stronger than a Space Marine, lol.

He can lift anywhere from 15-25 tons over his head, depending on which era you are looking at.

The difference is just larger because Superman is so physically powerful he could overpower all the Primarchs at once. With one hand.

One thing that no one is giving a little break on is the 38,000 year technologacal differance ...

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
One thing that no one is giving a little break on is the 38,000 year technologacal differance ...

Mostly because its an unarmed fight in a bar. No weapons but whats in the bar, no armor or tech advantage. Just in civvies( or I guess a robe for the Sm..maybe a nice pair of PJ's)

No, naked.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
No, naked.

Sweet gods NO...No one wants to see naked Sm's k..just no......

I do.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I do.

alrighty then, we shall save you a spot. And bring your phone so you can relive the moment man.

Alrighty so i have read the books on the Spartans so i think i might throw in some input -- First ill go on the Spartans themselfs sense traning has been pretty much knocked out of the loop

( this is all from memory so if im wrong be merciful )
- Spartan II's -
Had 137 Canidates Pass Physical Augermentation , in which only 40 were killed ( sorry missing ) in action all cases aganst covenent forces mostly in forms of the Covenent Glassing Planets as well as Epic Last stands to the Death - Spartan II's were Designed primarlry at the Time for Counter Terrorism ( SPARTAN project was before Covenant " First Contact ") Which allowed for Super Elite soldiers that did not need to be replaced ( basically ) Upon the Dawn of the Covenant confict allowed for Massive Casualties ( in comparison to those who passed ) due to not knowing whom their enemy was and how to properly engage them ( Knowldge is power )

Spartan III's ( 2552-2556 ish timeline )
the Beginning of the Quanity vs Quality moment for the UNSC considering that this is during the Height of the Human- Covenant War these were designed with High Hitting power Shock Troopers sent on Suicidal raids , their "upgrades " were a reactive camo. as well as Much Higher Amounts of Aggression and Ephdermine that allowed to continue the Fight even in a State of Shock ( Ghost of Onyx if i remember ) Such Example of their Shock Value is a Company Sized unit attacked a Heavily fortifyed Covenent Ship Manufacturing Plant , only 2 Spartan III's Survived but their Attack Effectively Crippled the Covenents Ability to produce ships from that world .


The Largest consideration is the type of battle field - Spartans are Trained for Open engagements and Gurreila Tactics against superior forces ( yes im aware of the first opening argument of small room nothing litterlay mono-de- mono

Were as the Space Marines are designed to combat in massive stand up engagements -


different purpose , differnet enemies and differnet time frame ( 38k years )

I will Admit that i do like Halo a bit Better then 40k but that is not going to biase my thoughts onit ( i hope not at least )

When it comes down to a literal fistfight as has been suggested , its going to be the Spartans Reflexs ( Advanced from start then combine with armor [if thats included ] as well as the Suits AI matrix to the Space Marines Brute Resistance ( as their strength has been determined to be similar ) I would imagine a fight between the two being something like Muhammid Ali vs Brock Lesner , The Spartan would have to land a hell of a lot more punches to get a similar effect ( if out of armor )


Small Arms ---- The MAB5 ( considred in the books to be around a .7.63x54mm FMJ ) to the SPace Marines Bolter ( 20mm Rocket Assisted Explosive Shell ) Hands down im going to hand the Effectivness to the Bolter due to its size and Effectivness , The Spartan's MJNLR armor and Sheilds have been proven Capable of withstanding sustained fire from a 45mm cannon ment for Busting tanks ( John-117 during the MJNLR testing series on Reach but i will admit John has a hell of alot of luck ) as well as an AGM ( Air-Ground-Missle for busting tanks ) The Sheilds unlike as potrayed in the Games are actually several Milimeters from the Suit creating a protective Barrier , The sheild strength can be increased in certain areas to increase resistance in that area ( As is done with John 117 to his boots while crossing a minefield ) As for other items such as sniper rifle im going to leave that up in the air because those are both Precision weapons and anything well placed enough is lethal moving on


Heavy Weapons -
Spartan SPNKR Missile Launcher 120mm Rocket Assisted Shell - Basically the exact same as the SM missle launcher so im not going to throw much into this area

Spartan Laser -- Again throwing this things Capabilities slighty closer to a lascannon , but i can't accurately base anything along it because it is never mentioned in the books and only in the Halo 3 - on ward




Over all things are in my mind Pretty Close in terms of an engagement , a Space Marines Resilience against a Spartans superior Speed and Combat Ability ( as in tactics ect. ) over all , i think i would call it a draw or a little in the Marines favor , however if the Spartan could out manuver a Space Marine which is very likely and simpily lodge a knife under his helment while remaiing out of striking distance ( Bear in mind rediculous shoulder guards impearing mobility ) So i would like to see what people think of my Analasyes and what you think is resonable and isn't -- - Much Apprecaited

Summary --- Equal Match depending on Engagement type

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Galdos wrote:
Not every guy has his bayonet ready or has a knife ready. Sometimes they just have their butstocks because they just didnt have time for anything else. Ya its not their bare hands per say but again, if you can kill a marine with a blunt object when he has armor, you can kill him with your hands without it. You just need to be lucky.

Now all you need to do is prove that a guardsman with a butstock can kill a Marine.

What?
Yes, thats kind of obvious... especially when sources say "they have super human strength" Generally when someone is described to have super human strength in scifi they have super human strength.

You are correct, the Primarchs do indeed have super human strength, in fact the Primarchs are even stronger

Seriously I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Characters with superhuman strength are not equal.

There is a big difference between Superman and Spiderman, and a difference between a Space Marine and a Spartan, though the difference is not as huge as the previous one.

Are you trying to pick a debate or something? I cant prove that, I even mentioned in my earlier post I doubt there is a recorded incident of that. There could be, I dont know, I dont remember every single book I read if it has a scene like this or not. Im just going of we know it must be phyiscally possible or SMs would simply auto win against IG and Tau in CC. Ya its TT so its need to be taken with a grain of salt but it must be somewhat possible. But this is getting away from the point I was making in the first place. My point was, I am sure it is possible, that if you hit a marine in the right spot you can kill him. Why the hell are you arguring that marines are phyiscally immune to anything that isnt an Ork or stronger.

I never said they were equal without a doubt. I said that marines and spartans are either equal in strength or marines are slightly stronger. Im sure they are close enough that if there is a difference, it would only make a slight difference in a fight.