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2013/01/01 06:07:39
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Kyle Duncan, an attorney for the pro-life legal group Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, said in a statement that hobby Lobby doesn’t plan to offer its employees insurance that would cover the drug while its lawsuit is pending.
“The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees,” Duncan said. “To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs.”
Because we have people going on about how Hobby Lobby shouldn't have to pay for birth control because that is their faith. And Hobby Lobby is paying for birth control and has no problem with doing so. Which just means that people are mouthing off and ranting about stuff that has nothing to do with the case.
Hobby Lobby is also not being told to cover abortions, they never have been. They are also not told to pay for abortion-inducing drugs, they never have been.
Wait... they're currently covering them?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/01/01 06:13:27
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Ahtman wrote: On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
-Barry Goldwater
Barry Goldwater sounds like the kind of lefty RINO that's ruining conservatism, and we should primary him.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/01/01 06:16:54
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
The Greens are a law-abiding family. They have no desire to defy their own government.
...followed by this...
The Christian tradition of defying government commands to do something wrong goes back to the very birth of Christianity.
I cant believe they worded it like that (bold part)
defying... to do something wrong? So the history of the Christian faith is the defiance of a right government, to do something wrong .i.e. worship God, and live their lives in a manner concurrent with their faith. That is, if nothing else, a sickening misrepresentation of Christian history
Kyle Duncan, an attorney for the pro-life legal group Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, said in a statement that hobby Lobby doesn’t plan to offer its employees insurance that would cover the drug while its lawsuit is pending.
“The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees,” Duncan said. “To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs.”
Because we have people going on about how Hobby Lobby shouldn't have to pay for birth control because that is their faith. And Hobby Lobby is paying for birth control and has no problem with doing so. Which just means that people are mouthing off and ranting about stuff that has nothing to do with the case.
Hobby Lobby is also not being told to cover abortions, they never have been. They are also not told to pay for abortion-inducing drugs, they never have been.
Wait... they're currently covering them?
Ever hear of Plan B?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 06:18:29
When your wife suggests roleplay as a result of your table top gaming... life just seems right
I took my wife thru the BRB for fantasy and 40k, the first thing she said was "AWESOME"... codex: Chaos Daemons Nurgle..... to all those who says God aint real....
2013/01/01 06:19:38
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Kyle Duncan, an attorney for the pro-life legal group Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, said in a statement that hobby Lobby doesn’t plan to offer its employees insurance that would cover the drug while its lawsuit is pending.
“The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees,” Duncan said. “To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs.”
Because we have people going on about how Hobby Lobby shouldn't have to pay for birth control because that is their faith. And Hobby Lobby is paying for birth control and has no problem with doing so. Which just means that people are mouthing off and ranting about stuff that has nothing to do with the case.
Hobby Lobby is also not being told to cover abortions, they never have been. They are also not told to pay for abortion-inducing drugs, they never have been.
Wait... they're currently covering them?
They are covering birth control, like they always have and will continue to do.
They are not covering abortions, which they were never ordered to cover.
2013/01/01 06:28:23
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Kyle Duncan, an attorney for the pro-life legal group Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, said in a statement that hobby Lobby doesn’t plan to offer its employees insurance that would cover the drug while its lawsuit is pending.
“The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees,” Duncan said. “To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs.”
Because we have people going on about how Hobby Lobby shouldn't have to pay for birth control because that is their faith. And Hobby Lobby is paying for birth control and has no problem with doing so. Which just means that people are mouthing off and ranting about stuff that has nothing to do with the case.
Hobby Lobby is also not being told to cover abortions, they never have been. They are also not told to pay for abortion-inducing drugs, they never have been.
Wait... they're currently covering them?
They are covering birth control, like they always have and will continue to do.
They are not covering abortions, which they were never ordered to cover.
So Plan B is not covered? huh... I thought it was... my bad.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/01/01 06:38:56
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Mannahnin wrote: Exactly. The Greens in no way are being required to violate their own religious strictures. The separate legal entity which they own is being required to provide coverage which enables its employees to use or NOT use contraception as those EMPLOYEES' religious beliefs require or permit. If the government was requiring the Greens personally to use birth control, then that would clearly be a violation of their religious freedom. Instead they are complaining because they are not being allowed to impose their religious beliefs on their employees.
"Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's" makes quite clear that Jesus was saying to pay your taxes and obey the law in the temporal world. Yes, the Roman empire clearly did plenty of things with that tax revenue that the Jews and early Christians might not agree with. But what the government did with the tax money wasn't their responsibility.
whembly wrote: The argument really is this: Does a PRIVATE owner of a business have a right to run his business as he sees fit (with accordance to the law of course) and does he have a right to offer whatever compensation he can in a given market.
As soon as you add "with accordance to the law of course", you make your question meaningless. Coverage for contraception IS the law. The employer is no longer permitted to withhold coverage for it any more than they're allowed to lock employees in without access to fire exists (Triangle Shirtwaist factor), or they're allowed to make hourly employees work more than 40 hours without paying them overtime.
Mannahnin your killing me with this one! So am I to take it you are implying that Christians may only do with their property, something that the Government tells them they may? Is it not true that the Greens own the hobby lobby companies? Is it not also true, by reason of logical inference, that you are saying something to the effect of "well the greens arent being forced to remain in control of their company, if they dont like the law, they can leave the public forum and hide in their backwards hole!" ?!!
Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, is IMMEDIATELY followed by "Render unto God, that which is Gods." Now tell me, what do you think falls where; the taxes that the hobby lobby company pays, as well as the money the Green family pays; and the lives of unborn children who have done nothing more than to be conceived. Lemme tell you my position
Taxes= Governments, Babies= Gods
Regardless of where you stand on the issue of when life begins (although the real argument is over whether a woman has a right to end that life when ever she wants (as long as its in her uterus) ) the fact of the matter is the Green family believes that it is protected and precious life and ending it is a direct affront to God and violates His intentions. What gives the Government the right to dictate to them how they should run their company on an issue such as this? Are you so put off by Christianity in the public square, that you are oblivious to the steam rolling of your fellow citizens constitutionally declared rights over the sustainment of some invented right? Because it seems that way to me.
And thanks to you Ahtman for giving us that lil.... gem of... lets just call it tripe from our illustrious B Goldwater.
I find it so ammusing that he, a member of our rule of the majority style government, is mad the the majority. Not only that, he thumbs his nose at the "political preachers" i.e. vocal majority, and tells them to effectively "STFU AND BE HAPPY WE DONT THROW YOU IN PRISON YOU PRETENTIOUS PRICKS!" Such a beacon of legislative neutrality and unbiased representation he is.... ( if I could poor condensed sarcasm onto my keyboard right now I would)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 06:39:48
When your wife suggests roleplay as a result of your table top gaming... life just seems right
I took my wife thru the BRB for fantasy and 40k, the first thing she said was "AWESOME"... codex: Chaos Daemons Nurgle..... to all those who says God aint real....
2013/01/01 06:39:24
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
d-usa wrote: They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Levonorgestrel, a chemical present in "morning after pills", cause the egg to not be able to adhere to the uterine wall via irritation of its lining, preventing gestation i.e. further growth of the childerrr "fetus"? This would then mean, that as the fertilized egg drops from the fallopian tubes, it finds no purchase in the uterine wall to begin gestation. So the fertilized egg is then expelled from the uterus via the cervix, then the vagina, and thus the womans body.
Now, if that is the case, and you happen to believe that life begins at conception, would it not then follow, that you just killed that life at its earliest possible stage? Thus committing an abortion of that life?
The answer is most definitely yes ( remember, given that life begins at conception) And I would there for caution you to be a bit more empathetic to the beliefs of others, just as you seem to think the believer should be empathetic to the lack, or difference, of belief in others.
When your wife suggests roleplay as a result of your table top gaming... life just seems right
I took my wife thru the BRB for fantasy and 40k, the first thing she said was "AWESOME"... codex: Chaos Daemons Nurgle..... to all those who says God aint real....
2013/01/01 07:00:15
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
d-usa wrote: They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Levonorgestrel, a chemical present in "morning after pills", cause the egg to not be able to adhere to the uterine wall via irritation of its lining, preventing gestation i.e. further growth of the childerrr "fetus"?
The entire mechanism of action is centered around preventing the release of an egg to be fertilized in the first place. If Plan B fails then it fails for two primary reasons:
1) The woman is already pregnant, and Plan B has no effect on a fertilized egg before or after implantation.
2) The woman has already ovulated, allowing the egg to become fertilized and implant as normal.
Indeed LNG has been shown to be no better than placebo at
suppressing ovulation when given immediately prior to ovulation17 and is not thought to be
effective once the process of fertilisation has occurred.22–25
Studies looking at the effect of LNG on endometrial markers of receptivity have found little to
no effect using different modes of administration.16,26,27 Evidence from an in vitro study
indicates that LNG does not affect embryo-endometrial attachment.28
The available evidence suggests that pregnancies occurring after LNG failure are not
associated with any major congenital malformations, pregnancy complications or other
adverse pregnancy outcomes.29
Implantation:
• Two studies have estimated effectiveness of LNG ECPs by confirming the cycle day by hormonal
analysis (other studies used women’s self-reported cycle date). In these studies, no pregnancies
occurred in the women who took ECPs before ovulation; while pregnancies occurred only in women who took ECPs on or after the day of ovulation, providing evidence that ECPs were unable to
prevent implantation.9,10
• A number of studies have evaluated whether ECPs produce changes in the histological and bio-
chemical characteristics of the endometrium. Most studies show that LNG ECPs have no such effect
on the endometrium, indicating that they have no mechanism to prevent implantation.1,2,11,12,13 One of
these studies found that following administration of double the standard dose of LNG, there are only minor or no alterations in endometrial receptivity.12 One study found a single altered endometrial param- eter only when LNG was administered prior to the LH surge, at a time when ECPs inhibit ovulation.14
• One study showed that levonorgestrel did not prevent the attachment of human embryos to a
simulated (in vitro) endometrial environment.15
• Animal studies demonstrated that LNG ECPs did not prevent implantation of the fertilized egg in
the endometrium.16,17
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/01 07:05:43
2013/01/01 07:14:08
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Quick question for clarity's sake, when do you take pregnancy to begin?
Post or pre implantation?
When your wife suggests roleplay as a result of your table top gaming... life just seems right
I took my wife thru the BRB for fantasy and 40k, the first thing she said was "AWESOME"... codex: Chaos Daemons Nurgle..... to all those who says God aint real....
2013/01/01 07:15:13
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
d-usa wrote: They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Levonorgestrel, a chemical present in "morning after pills", cause the egg to not be able to adhere to the uterine wall via irritation of its lining, preventing gestation i.e. further growth of the childerrr "fetus"?
The entire mechanism of action is centered around preventing the release of an egg to be fertilized in the first place. If Plan B fails then it fails for two primary reasons:
1) The woman is already pregnant, and Plan B has no effect on a fertilized egg before or after implantation.
2) The woman has already ovulated, allowing the egg to become fertilized and implant as normal.
Indeed LNG has been shown to be no better than placebo at
suppressing ovulation when given immediately prior to ovulation17 and is not thought to be
effective once the process of fertilisation has occurred.22–25
Studies looking at the effect of LNG on endometrial markers of receptivity have found little to
no effect using different modes of administration.16,26,27 Evidence from an in vitro study
indicates that LNG does not affect embryo-endometrial attachment.28
The available evidence suggests that pregnancies occurring after LNG failure are not
associated with any major congenital malformations, pregnancy complications or other
adverse pregnancy outcomes.29
Implantation:
• Two studies have estimated effectiveness of LNG ECPs by confirming the cycle day by hormonal
analysis (other studies used women’s self-reported cycle date). In these studies, no pregnancies
occurred in the women who took ECPs before ovulation; while pregnancies occurred only in women who took ECPs on or after the day of ovulation, providing evidence that ECPs were unable to
prevent implantation.9,10
• A number of studies have evaluated whether ECPs produce changes in the histological and bio-
chemical characteristics of the endometrium. Most studies show that LNG ECPs have no such effect
on the endometrium, indicating that they have no mechanism to prevent implantation.1,2,11,12,13 One of
these studies found that following administration of double the standard dose of LNG, there are only minor or no alterations in endometrial receptivity.12 One study found a single altered endometrial param- eter only when LNG was administered prior to the LH surge, at a time when ECPs inhibit ovulation.14
• One study showed that levonorgestrel did not prevent the attachment of human embryos to a
simulated (in vitro) endometrial environment.15
• Animal studies demonstrated that LNG ECPs did not prevent implantation of the fertilized egg in
the endometrium.16,17
Wowee D... hold on there pardner...
At your work, do you have Micromedex or Lexicomp? FDB or Multum?
Check 'em out.
At Lexicomp, there's a "How does this drug work?", which states:
- Levonorgestrel stops or delays egg release (ovulation). It keeps the sperm form fertilizing the egg, changes chemicals seen in pregnancy, and stops the fertilzed egg from implanting.
-It thins the lining of the uterus.
d-usa wrote: They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Levonorgestrel, a chemical present in "morning after pills", cause the egg to not be able to adhere to the uterine wall via irritation of its lining, preventing gestation i.e. further growth of the childerrr "fetus"?
The entire mechanism of action is centered around preventing the release of an egg to be fertilized in the first place. If Plan B fails then it fails for two primary reasons:
1) The woman is already pregnant, and Plan B has no effect on a fertilized egg before or after implantation.
2) The woman has already ovulated, allowing the egg to become fertilized and implant as normal.
Indeed LNG has been shown to be no better than placebo at
suppressing ovulation when given immediately prior to ovulation17 and is not thought to be
effective once the process of fertilisation has occurred.22–25
Studies looking at the effect of LNG on endometrial markers of receptivity have found little to
no effect using different modes of administration.16,26,27 Evidence from an in vitro study
indicates that LNG does not affect embryo-endometrial attachment.28
The available evidence suggests that pregnancies occurring after LNG failure are not
associated with any major congenital malformations, pregnancy complications or other
adverse pregnancy outcomes.29
Implantation:
• Two studies have estimated effectiveness of LNG ECPs by confirming the cycle day by hormonal
analysis (other studies used women’s self-reported cycle date). In these studies, no pregnancies
occurred in the women who took ECPs before ovulation; while pregnancies occurred only in women who took ECPs on or after the day of ovulation, providing evidence that ECPs were unable to
prevent implantation.9,10
• A number of studies have evaluated whether ECPs produce changes in the histological and bio-
chemical characteristics of the endometrium. Most studies show that LNG ECPs have no such effect
on the endometrium, indicating that they have no mechanism to prevent implantation.1,2,11,12,13 One of
these studies found that following administration of double the standard dose of LNG, there are only minor or no alterations in endometrial receptivity.12 One study found a single altered endometrial param- eter only when LNG was administered prior to the LH surge, at a time when ECPs inhibit ovulation.14
• One study showed that levonorgestrel did not prevent the attachment of human embryos to a
simulated (in vitro) endometrial environment.15
• Animal studies demonstrated that LNG ECPs did not prevent implantation of the fertilized egg in
the endometrium.16,17
Wowee D... hold on there pardner...
At your work, do you have Micromedex or Lexicomp? FDB or Multum?
Check 'em out.
At Lexicomp, there's a "How does this drug work?", which states:
- Levonorgestrel stops or delays egg release (ovulation). It keeps the sperm form fertilizing the egg, changes chemicals seen in pregnancy, and stops the fertilzed egg from implanting.
-It thins the lining of the uterus.
Micromedex says the same thing...
Both get their data from the insert written by the company, which based it on research that is older than the current research. Our understanding of the drugs changes, but the majority of times the little fancy paper inserts that nobody reads don't get updated.
Belief that the pill might be an abortifacient stems from speculative language that the Food and Drug Administration approved for its original label, which listed a number of physiological processes by which the pill might prevent pregnancy, including preventing fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb.
...
The F.D.A. now acknowledges that the emerging data suggest the morning-after pill, often called Plan B, does not inhibit implantation. It should remove that unsupported suggestion from the label. Mitt Romney and other politicians need to stop calling it an “abortive” pill. Decisions on whether to take the pill should be left to women.
The studies have shown, over and over again, that Plan B works by delaying ovulation. And if ovulation or fertlilzation has occured it has no effect.
Plan B, the nation’s most widely used emergency contraceptive, works only as a contraceptive and does not cause abortions, according to an article in the January-February issue of Health Progress, the official journal of the Catholic Health Association
If my religion believes that a person with cancer should be left to die, does my business have to cover cancer related stuff? Its unnatural to preserve the dying, after all. I don't want to be forced by the liberal government to fund something immoral, heaven forbid.
2013/01/01 07:45:48
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
d-usa wrote: They are refusing to cover Plan B in violation of the law because they have no idea how it works and think it causes abortions.
We have a huge federal court case that is being waged in the name of religion against a big evil government simply because people "believe" that the drug does something it doesn't.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Levonorgestrel, a chemical present in "morning after pills", cause the egg to not be able to adhere to the uterine wall via irritation of its lining, preventing gestation i.e. further growth of the childerrr "fetus"?
The entire mechanism of action is centered around preventing the release of an egg to be fertilized in the first place. If Plan B fails then it fails for two primary reasons:
1) The woman is already pregnant, and Plan B has no effect on a fertilized egg before or after implantation.
2) The woman has already ovulated, allowing the egg to become fertilized and implant as normal.
Indeed LNG has been shown to be no better than placebo at
suppressing ovulation when given immediately prior to ovulation17 and is not thought to be
effective once the process of fertilisation has occurred.22–25
Studies looking at the effect of LNG on endometrial markers of receptivity have found little to
no effect using different modes of administration.16,26,27 Evidence from an in vitro study
indicates that LNG does not affect embryo-endometrial attachment.28
The available evidence suggests that pregnancies occurring after LNG failure are not
associated with any major congenital malformations, pregnancy complications or other
adverse pregnancy outcomes.29
Implantation:
• Two studies have estimated effectiveness of LNG ECPs by confirming the cycle day by hormonal
analysis (other studies used women’s self-reported cycle date). In these studies, no pregnancies
occurred in the women who took ECPs before ovulation; while pregnancies occurred only in women who took ECPs on or after the day of ovulation, providing evidence that ECPs were unable to
prevent implantation.9,10
• A number of studies have evaluated whether ECPs produce changes in the histological and bio-
chemical characteristics of the endometrium. Most studies show that LNG ECPs have no such effect
on the endometrium, indicating that they have no mechanism to prevent implantation.1,2,11,12,13 One of
these studies found that following administration of double the standard dose of LNG, there are only minor or no alterations in endometrial receptivity.12 One study found a single altered endometrial param- eter only when LNG was administered prior to the LH surge, at a time when ECPs inhibit ovulation.14
• One study showed that levonorgestrel did not prevent the attachment of human embryos to a
simulated (in vitro) endometrial environment.15
• Animal studies demonstrated that LNG ECPs did not prevent implantation of the fertilized egg in
the endometrium.16,17
Wowee D... hold on there pardner...
At your work, do you have Micromedex or Lexicomp? FDB or Multum?
Check 'em out.
At Lexicomp, there's a "How does this drug work?", which states:
- Levonorgestrel stops or delays egg release (ovulation). It keeps the sperm form fertilizing the egg, changes chemicals seen in pregnancy, and stops the fertilzed egg from implanting.
-It thins the lining of the uterus.
Micromedex says the same thing...
Both get their data from the insert written by the company, which based it on research that is older than the current research. Our understanding of the drugs changes, but the majority of times the little fancy paper inserts that nobody reads don't get updated.
The studies have shown, over and over again, that Plan B works by delaying ovulation. And if ovulation or fertlilzation has occured it has no effect.
So four clinical decision support systems used globally are all wrong-ish? (Not unusual though... they do change all the time)
Even you it's true, I personally know OB doctors who would prescribe them and they told me they work post sex. Now, we may never know if the russian roulette of egg+sperm actually worked at those times.
*shrugs*
If it doesn't work, then the Plan B company pulled one hell of a scam. <---- I'm jesting there...
Well... you implied it's only use is pre-sex. (which would work since it can prevent the release of the egg).
Please show where I implied it's only use is pre-sex...
um... this blurb?
The entire mechanism of action is centered around preventing the release of an egg to be fertilized in the first place. If Plan B fails then it fails for two primary reasons:
1) The woman is already pregnant, and Plan B has no effect on a fertilized egg before or after implantation.
2) The woman has already ovulated, allowing the egg to become fertilized and implant as normal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 07:46:12
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/01/01 07:50:25
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
See updated post that you quoted for more information about the mistakes in the clinical support documentation. There is a reason we continue to do studies long after the package insert is written.
But an examination by The New York Times has found that the federally approved labels and medical Web sites do not reflect what the science shows. Studies have not established that emergency contraceptive pills prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb, leading scientists say. Rather, the pills delay ovulation, the release of eggs from ovaries that occurs before eggs are fertilized, and some pills also thicken cervical mucus so sperm have trouble swimming.
And it seems that you are confusing three separate events and/or lumbing them in together because nothing in my post mentions the time of sex:
-Sex -Ovulation -Fertilization
The Plan B folks didn't pull a scam. Plan B works like it is advertised. It just doesn't work how people think it does.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/01 07:54:43
2013/01/01 08:55:06
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Personally, I feel the only time you can take a life is when the life is actually conscious of it's own existance. From what I can gather, Plan B is simply a contraceptive pill that is to be ingested before intercourse to prevent fertilization. The fact that the egg isn't actually fertilized in the first place surely doesn't make it an abortion, rather puts it in the same place as the morning-after pill, condoms and other forms of contraception?
BlapBlapBlap: bringing idiocy and mischief where it should never set foot since 2011.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:What sort of idiot quotes themselves in their sigs? Who could possibly be that arrogant?
2013/01/01 09:10:57
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
The real point, though, is whether companies should be allowed to opt out of pieces of legislation because of an issue of conscience their owners have.
Vulcan wrote: If this goes through, I expect a lot of companies will get religion really quickly.
Simple solution: "Christian opt out plan" same thing, same cost, just no.birth control. If you really wanna screw them you make it a comprehensive childcare and STD testing/treatment plan.
Do you think Hobby Lobby is fighting the government over birth control?
No, nor do I think it has anything to do with religion. They're trying to cut costs. That's the only reason corporations do anything anymore.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2013/01/01 16:28:42
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
The Greens are a law-abiding family. They have no desire to defy their own government.
...followed by this...
The Christian tradition of defying government commands to do something wrong goes back to the very birth of Christianity.
Yeah.....how dare all those NAACP....... Martin Luther King...Gandis, underground railroad, Oskar Shindler types of the world break unjust laws....
The Bible declares we must obey every law even if it breaks God's Moral laws......errrr...wait.....no it doesn't.
GG
Trying to compare these guys to MLK, Gandhi and Oscar Schindler is silly and borders on a lack of respect for what they [MLK et al] worked for, especially seeing as they worked in favour of people not being chained down by old ways of thinking as opposed to maintaining those very rules. Employees aren't actually free to just quit, because then they won't have a job, which means you can't pay your rent, which means you'll get evicted. The "just quit and get another job" argument is a silly right-wing fantasy. The employer has a lot of power over their employees; this entire conflict is about whether or not we think it is OK for an employer to effectively force his or her belief system on the employees.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2013/01/01 16:41:24
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
You can't seriously put the Greens up there on a pedestal with the likes of Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Schindler. The last one in particular is a bit unfortunate because he saved people from the holocaust and the Greens probably think they are saving lives by interfering in the provision of abortions. Probably best to avoid those sorts of comparisons before someone Godwins the thread...
2013/01/01 17:00:15
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
LoneLictor wrote: If my religion believes that a person with cancer should be left to die, does my business have to cover cancer related stuff? Its unnatural to preserve the dying, after all. I don't want to be forced by the liberal government to fund something immoral, heaven forbid.
And THAT'S why this is a bad idea.
There's a reason we have laws in place to separate religion from government.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2013/01/01 17:01:38
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Today is the first day of their fine. Another reason i like 2013. These people aren't attempting to defy the government, They should get find. As many people have said, they are a company that has to comply by federal laws, it is no different from minimum wage or mandatory breaks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/01 17:13:51
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2013/01/01 17:25:00
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Company seeks to dodge legal obligations to it's employees, gets rightfully fined.
Claims it's against the religion of the owners, this claim is open to a wide range of criticism on the letter of their religious laws, owners are conducting business within a nation and society that has passed laws and will conduct that business lawfully or have it censured.
Obey the law or cease business.
End of.
2013/01/01 17:27:30
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Company seeks to dodge legal obligations to it's employees, gets rightfully fined.
Claims it's against the religion of the owners, this claim is open to a wide range of criticism on the letter of their religious laws, owners are conducting business within a nation and society that has passed laws and will conduct that business lawfully or have it censured.
Obey the law or cease business.
End of.
You almost got it right... it's:
"Obey the law, cease business or pay the fine".
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/01/01 17:30:46
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Company seeks to dodge legal obligations to it's employees, gets rightfully fined.
Claims it's against the religion of the owners, this claim is open to a wide range of criticism on the letter of their religious laws, owners are conducting business within a nation and society that has passed laws and will conduct that business lawfully or have it censured.
Obey the law or cease business.
End of.
You almost got it right... it's:
"Obey the law, cease business or pay the fine".
Can they pay it ad infinitum? Or, like FSA fines in the UK, it adds up over time and if they are reviewed again, further steps can be taken.
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