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2012/12/31 16:57:47
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
“We must obey God rather than men!”—Acts 5:29.
Now that Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor has denied Hobby Lobby’s application for an emergency injunction protecting them from Obamacare’s HHS Mandate on abortion and birth control, Hobby Lobby has decided to defy the federal government to remain true to their religious beliefs, at enormous risk and financial cost.
Hobby Lobby is wholly owned and controlled by the Green family, who are evangelical Christians. The Greens are committed to running their business in accordance with their Christian faith, believing that God wants them to conduct their professional business in accordance with the family’s understanding of the Bible. Hobby Lobby’s mission statement includes, “Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company … consistent with Biblical principles.”
The HHS Mandate goes into effect for Hobby Lobby on Jan. 1, 2013. The Greens correctly understand that some of the drugs the HHS Mandate requires them to cover at no cost in their healthcare plans cause abortions.
Today Hobby Lobby announced that they will not comply with this mandate to become complicit in abortion, which the Greens believe ends an innocent human life. Given Hobby Lobby’s size (it has 572 stores employing more than 13,000 people), by violating the HHS Mandate, it will be subject to over $1.3 million in fines per day. That means over $40 million in fines in January alone. If their case takes another ten months to get before the Supreme Court—which would be the earliest it could get there under the normal order of business—the company would incur almost a half-billion dollars in fines. And then of course the Supreme Court would have to write an opinion in what would likely be a split decision with dissenters, which could easily take four or six months and include hundreds of millions of dollars in additional penalties.
This is civil disobedience, consistent with America’s highest traditions when moral issues are at stake. The Greens are a law-abiding family. They have no desire to defy their own government. But as the Founders launched the American Revolution because they believed the British government was violating their rights, the Greens believe that President Barack Obama and Secretary Kathleen Sebelius are commanding the Greens to sin against God, and that no government has the lawful authority to do so.
The Christian tradition of defying government commands to do something wrong goes back to the very birth of Christianity. When the apostles were ordered not to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with anyone, the Book of Acts records: “Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.’”
Eleven of the twelve apostles—including Peter—would lose their lives for the sake of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ; only the apostle John died of old age. They were determined to obey God’s will at all costs.
This issue of civil disobedience is never to be undertaken lightly. The Bible teaches Christians to submit to all legitimate governmental authority (e.g., Romans 13:1), and so a person can only disobey the government when there is no other way to obey God.
But here in America, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and in its First Amendment it protects against a government establishment of an official religion and separately protects the free exercise of religion. On top of that, Congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA) to specifically add an additional layer of protection against government actions that violate a person’s religious beliefs.
The HHS Mandate is a gross violation of the religious beliefs of the Green family. The issue before the courts here is whether the Greens religious-liberty rights include running their secular, for-profit business consistent with their religious beliefs. In other words, is religious liberty just what you do in church on a Sunday morning, or does it include what you do during the week at your job?
The Greens are now putting their fortunes on the line to do what they believe is right. The courts should side with them, affirming a broad scope of religious liberty under the Constitution and RFRA. And the Supreme Court should resolve this matter with dispatch in their favor.
Millions of Christians across the country feel exactly the same way as the Greens. The Obama administration has issued a statist command that is a declaration of war on people of faith who object to abortion, and civil disobedience could break out all over the country unless the courts set this matter right—and quickly.
Breitbart News legal columnist Ken Klukowski is on faculty at Liberty University School of Law.
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2012/12/31 16:59:52
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
rockerbikie wrote: So, some nutjob wants us to obey a magic skybeing and his zombie son more than decent human beings. No offense christians.
There are decent human beings in the US government!?
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Alfndrate wrote: I don't remember "law-breaking" as a part of my catechism teachings.
From CRCC:
2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49
When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/31 17:27:07
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
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2012/12/31 17:35:17
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
I guess they missed that whole "Render unto Caesar..." part.
And the entire 13th chapter of Romans.
If they want to disobey the laws as they stand now in the hopes that they might change, they're free to do so.
Maybe they'll win; if so, congratulations.
But even though I like Hobby Lobby as a store, I hope they hang.
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
2012/12/31 17:38:57
Subject: Re:Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Following a decision by Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor denying Hobby Lobby’s request for an exemption from the Obama administration’s HHS mandate, the Christian retail company said it will defy the mandate.
As LifeNews reported, Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor has refused to act favorably on an emergency appeal Hobby Lobby stores filed to stop enforcement of the HHS mandate against it.
After a federal court denied a request to temporarily stop enforcement of the abortion pill mandate against the Christian-operated business Hobby Lobby, it took its HHS mandate lawsuit to the Supreme Court. Sotomayor denied its request to block the mandate and the millions of dollars in fines it will be subjected to starting January 1 for not complying…
…Now, an attorney for Hobby Lobby says it will defy the mandate and potentially risk potential fines of up to $1.3 million per day.
Kyle Duncan, an attorney for the pro-life legal group Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, said in a statement that hobby Lobby doesn’t plan to offer its employees insurance that would cover the drug while its lawsuit is pending.
“The company will continue to provide health insurance to all qualified employees,” Duncan said. “To remain true to their faith, it is not their intention, as a company, to pay for abortion-inducing drugs.”
Well... we'll see what happens then.
All of this is that the SC (Sotomeyer) denied the request for immediate injunction. This suit will still be heard in the SC later this year.
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2012/12/31 17:45:53
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
As a Christian let me say this. These people are defying god by defying the government.
I remember one passage that said, in essence, since god created all god created the govt, and therefore the government is an extension of gods will.
These people are not getting force to get abrtions, just providing people with the option(Which i know from first hand, very few take)
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2012/12/31 17:49:15
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
I remember one passage that said, in essence, since god created all god created the govt, and therefore the government is an extension of gods will.
Most likely this:
Romans 13: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/31 17:59:56
I'm both selfish and rational. I'm scheming, secretive and manipulative; I use knowledge as a tool for personal gain, and in turn obtaining more knowledge. At best, I am mysterious and stealthy; at worst, I am distrustful and opportunistic.
2012/12/31 18:05:39
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Hobby Lobby’s mission statement includes, “Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company … consistent with Biblical principles.”
The HHS Mandate goes into effect for Hobby Lobby on Jan. 1, 2013. The Greens correctly understand that some of the drugs the HHS Mandate requires them to cover at no cost in their healthcare plans cause abortions. ... Today Hobby Lobby announced that they will not comply with this mandate to become complicit in abortion, which the Greens believe ends an innocent human life.
This is civil disobedience, consistent with America’s highest traditions when moral issues are at stake. The Greens are a law-abiding family. They have no desire to defy their own government. But as the Founders launched the American Revolution because they believed the British government was violating their rights, the Greens believe that President Barack Obama and Secretary Kathleen Sebelius are commanding the Greens to sin against God, and that no government has the lawful authority to do so.
As an interesting note, I don't believe the Bible actually says anything about abortion... the entire anti-abortion sentiment was something that began amongst the "new wave" of Evangelical Christians sometime in the late 1970s. In fact, it almost shifted overnight. Prior to Jerry Falwell & friends, the Evangelicals didn't seem to have the objections that they do now.
2012/12/31 18:07:15
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Personally I agree with what they are doing despite my pro-abortion/choice stance. If it violates their personal and religious beliefs they shouldn't be required to provide it. Imagine instead that the government required them to provide assisted suicide benefits to any employee that chose to end their own life and they were objecting for the same reason, would you still be against them? I realize this is a potentially poor example, but it was the best that I could do on short notice.
The argument that you can find no explicit reference in a holy text is irrelevant, faith evolves. There is no explicit mention in the Koran that women should cover their faces yet we make legal allowances for women of the islamic faith in certain instances. Religious texts are not a GW publication open to RAW/RAI debate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/12/31 18:12:22
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2012/12/31 18:10:29
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
I remember one passage that said, in essence, since god created all god created the govt, and therefore the government is an extension of gods will.
Most likely this:
Romans 13:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
However, if the Government is doing something that is morally wrong you are to oppose it on that ground.
If the government was sponsoring genocide you would not support them.
The Bible does not tell you to blindly follow the government.
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Really?
Something tells me we won't be seeing much more of Hobby Lobby. Can't say I will miss them.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
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2012/12/31 18:16:45
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
chaos0xomega wrote:Personally I agree with what they are doing despite my pro-abortion/choice stance. If it violates their personal and religious beliefs they shouldn't be required to provide it. Imagine instead that the government required them to provide assisted suicide benefits to any employee that chose to end their own life and they were objecting for the same reason, would you still be against them? I realize this is a potentially poor example, but it was the best that I could do on short notice.
Sure. Religious Freedom means you don't have to participate in anyone else's faith; but you must tolerate the other faiths. Someone's right to die is their own choice, and your personal religious beliefs must tolerate that right to die. However, you do not need to personally believe in your own right to die.
chaos0xomega wrote:The argument that you can find no explicit reference in a holy text is irrelevant, faith evolves. There is no explicit mention in the Koran that women should cover their faces yet we make legal allowances for women of the islamic faith in certain instances. Religious texts are not a GW publication open to RAW/RAI debate.
Unfortunately, this argument renders all religions to be irrelevant. if you can claim you have a religious belief and is protected, and then be allowed to change that belief to anything you want whenever you want, then either there cannot be any laws whatsoever, or else you cannot have your religion. It's like a contract; you cannot change the terms after the signing.
A quick example: "my religion has just now evolved to allow me to kill you. No government shall impede me religious freedom." I know this argument isn't reasonable, but that's kinda the point.
2012/12/31 18:27:50
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
Hobby Lobby's owners need to wake up and join the 21st century. Their tax dollars have already paid for birth control and abortions and about a dozen other things evangelicals are opposed to. Just because the health care offers it, doesn't mean their employees have to use it, on the contrary, its a greater show of faith that its available and they don't use it.
Either way, they're stupid if they think paying $1.5 million a day is going to make a difference. It may help dent the deficit if they can last a while...
2012/12/31 18:29:59
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Hobby Lobby's owners need to wake up and join the 21st century. Their tax dollars have already paid for birth control and abortions and about a dozen other things evangelicals are opposed to. Just because the health care offers it, doesn't mean their employees have to use it, on the contrary, its a greater show of faith that its available and they don't use it.
Either way, they're stupid if they think paying $1.5 million a day is going to make a difference. It may help dent the deficit if they can last a while...
So... they shouldn't have their religious objections heard?
There's a difference between paying taxes that may support birth control...
vs
Being forced to manage a plan providing these services against their religious beliefs.
Just saying...
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2012/12/31 18:31:17
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
The argument that you can find no explicit reference in a holy text is irrelevant, faith evolves.
That's not strictly true. Even under the Sherbert test the Court is obligated to determine whether or not a given claim is based on a sincere religious belief, and further whether or not state action imposes a substantial burden on the exercise of that belief. It is the second component which will most likely be the deciding factor in any SC decision. That, or proof of a compelling state interest in the mandate of such coverage.
Indeed, I suspect this act of civil disobedience has as much to do with proving the sincerity of the claim with respect to a future decision as it does explicitly moral choice.
There is no explicit mention in the Koran that women should cover their faces yet we make legal allowances for women of the islamic faith in certain instances.
No, but it is explicitly stated that men and women should dress modestly.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Hobby Lobby's owners need to wake up and join the 21st century. Their tax dollars have already paid for birth control and abortions and about a dozen other things evangelicals are opposed to. Just because the health care offers it, doesn't mean their employees have to use it, on the contrary, its a greater show of faith that its available and they don't use it.
Either way, they're stupid if they think paying $1.5 million a day is going to make a difference. It may help dent the deficit if they can last a while...
So... they shouldn't have their religious objections heard?
There's a difference between paying taxes that may support birth control...
vs
Being forced to manage a plan providing these services against their religious beliefs.
Just saying...
Didn't say they shouldn't be heard. I did say that it is pointless. The Affordable Healthcare Act has been passed by Congress and approved by judicial review by the Supreme Court. If they refuse to take part, they can't whine about being punished, nor should they punish individual employees who take advantage of the healthcare provided or the employees as a whole by denying them their due benefits.
2012/12/31 18:52:05
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Hobby Lobby's owners need to wake up and join the 21st century. Their tax dollars have already paid for birth control and abortions and about a dozen other things evangelicals are opposed to. Just because the health care offers it, doesn't mean their employees have to use it, on the contrary, its a greater show of faith that its available and they don't use it.
Either way, they're stupid if they think paying $1.5 million a day is going to make a difference. It may help dent the deficit if they can last a while...
So... they shouldn't have their religious objections heard?
There's a difference between paying taxes that may support birth control...
vs
Being forced to manage a plan providing these services against their religious beliefs.
Just saying...
Didn't say they shouldn't be heard. I did say that it is pointless. The Affordable Healthcare Act has been passed by Congress and approved by judicial review by the Supreme Court. If they refuse to take part, they can't whine about being punished, nor should they punish individual employees who take advantage of the healthcare provided or the employees as a whole by denying them their due benefits.
Well... they could simply NOT offer the employer based insurance and force the employees to the state exchange, as it would theoretically be cheaper for the company.
Interestingly, they chose to fight it.
Keep in mind, this isn't the SC saying they don't have a chance... the SC will hear their case later on this year.
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2012/12/31 18:53:28
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
rockerbikie wrote: So, some nutjob wants us to obey a magic skybeing and his zombie son more than decent human beings. No offense christians.
I'd sling an equal insult at you but it's so hard to keep track of which totalitarian despot you diefy week to week.
No offense whatever you are today.
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2012/12/31 18:56:27
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Hobby Lobby's owners need to wake up and join the 21st century. Their tax dollars have already paid for birth control and abortions and about a dozen other things evangelicals are opposed to. Just because the health care offers it, doesn't mean their employees have to use it, on the contrary, its a greater show of faith that its available and they don't use it.
Either way, they're stupid if they think paying $1.5 million a day is going to make a difference. It may help dent the deficit if they can last a while...
So... they shouldn't have their religious objections heard?
There's a difference between paying taxes that may support birth control...
vs
Being forced to manage a plan providing these services against their religious beliefs.
Just saying...
Didn't say they shouldn't be heard. I did say that it is pointless. The Affordable Healthcare Act has been passed by Congress and approved by judicial review by the Supreme Court. If they refuse to take part, they can't whine about being punished, nor should they punish individual employees who take advantage of the healthcare provided or the employees as a whole by denying them their due benefits.
Well... they could simply NOT offer the employer based insurance and force the employees to the state exchange, as it would theoretically be cheaper for the company.
Interestingly, they chose to fight it.
Keep in mind, this isn't the SC saying they don't have a chance... the SC will hear their case later on this year.
I thought the ACA forced employers with more than 50 employees to offer insurance to their employees... As it has been pointed out, Hobby Lobby has 13,000 employees nationwide.
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2012/12/31 19:01:41
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
I thought the ACA forced employers with more than 50 employees to offer insurance to their employees... As it has been pointed out, Hobby Lobby has 13,000 employees nationwide.
They are. What Hobby Lobby is doing is continuing to offer its present insurance plan, which does not meet the minimum requirements of ACA, as opposed to offering no insurance plan at all. As such, they are paying for the current plan, and the fines associated with not offering a qualifying plan.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/12/31 19:54:48
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
whembly wrote:
There's a difference between paying taxes that may support birth control...
vs
Being forced to manage a plan providing these services against their religious beliefs.
Just saying...
No there's not.
Just saying...
2012/12/31 20:00:10
Subject: Hobby Lobby says “We must obey God rather than men!”
I thought the ACA forced employers with more than 50 employees to offer insurance to their employees... As it has been pointed out, Hobby Lobby has 13,000 employees nationwide.
They are. What Hobby Lobby is doing is continuing to offer its present insurance plan, which does not meet the minimum requirements of ACA, as opposed to offering no insurance plan at all. As such, they are paying for the current plan, and the fines associated with not offering a qualifying plan.
Seaward should be coming in now to tell us an employer should be able to do whatever they want with no governmental repercussions.
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