So how is the Hobbit selling?

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**AllSeeingSkink**

Sigvatr wrote:
It's not as hard as you make it out to be - VPN tools are easy to use and get nowadays

...and given the amount of $ you save, it's well worth the price. A new AAA pc game costs 60€ in Germany and 60$ in the US, thus over at steam, I pay roughly 45€...that's 25% less.

I also use Hulu / Netflix

I don't think I said it was hard, I said it was annoying and a pain in the arse

Miniatures are also annoying and a pain in the arse to get, not hard, the last $200 worth of miniatures I bought internationally and had shipped at almost half the price of getting them in Australia. You can set up a VPN to get international pricing on games, but it's an annoyance and if you want something like a collectors edition it's much more annoying since the goodies aren't digital (of the half dozen games I bought last year, 3 of them I either bought physical copies or would have liked physical copies for the sake of collectors edition goodies).

**Maxstreel**

I am passing on the new releases as the sculpts are bad and way overpriced. I am waiting eagerly however for the new dwarven armies that should be coming soon. The dwarves in the flashback scenes were awesome and it held all of the action any wargame should have!

GW's dwarven sculpts for LOTR were terrible with very little character. Now from what we've seen in the movie, we'll have some excellent badass units. Did anyone notice that some of the dwarves looked very Warhammerish with their mohawks and beards?

**AllSeeingSkink**

Maxstreel wrote:
I am passing on the new releases as the sculpts are bad and way overpriced. I am waiting eagerly however for the new dwarven armies that should be coming soon. The dwarves in the flashback scenes were awesome and it held all of the action any wargame should have!

If you're talking about finecast, I agree, however the plastics are mostly pretty high quality (except for the aforementioned cartoonishness which I don't really like).

GW's dwarven sculpts for LOTR were terrible with very little character. Now from what we've seen in the movie, we'll have some excellent badass units. Did anyone notice that some of the dwarves looked very Warhammerish with their mohawks and beards?

I actually really like the existing LOTR dwarf sculpts. They are simple, well proportioned and well posed. The only thing lacking is they don't have any nice looking heavily armoured models. That said, I'm not a huge fan of the Warhammer dwarf miniatures.

**BryllCream**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:

Well, in this case Tolkien is to blame for writing 1500 pages of Fantasy with almost no female character. PJ did everything to expand female presence beyond original texts, even inventing the Elven chick as seen above. Arwen, Galadriel and Eowyn also have a much larger and more active presence in the movie than in the book, because the audience is not acustomed anymore to the strictly passive role Tolkien intended for women.

I don't think anyone can blame Tolkein for being a man of his time (he started his Middle Earth works during World War I) any more than we can blame Jackson for being a man of his.

In fact I kind of wish Jackson had gone a bit further in working in dark skinned good guys. It's hard not to be disquieted in LotR where heroic whites fight off hoards of dark skinned savages.

I guess Hobbit 'fixed' that by making the goblins even whiter than the heroes

Rather off-topic, but Tolkein loathed racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkein#Politics_and_race

'Tolkien expressed disgust at what he acknowledged as racism and once wrote of racial segregation in South Africa, "The treatment of colour nearly always horrifies anyone going out from Britain."'

I only realised The Lord of the Rings had "racist overtones" when I read as much on the internet. Guess I missed that in the dozen-or-so readings. However he quite blatently despised the urban working class, which none of the liberal "intellectuals" whinging about his racism seem to care about.

**chris_valera**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And of course the new special prices on the Hobbit game can't help much.

Supposedly New Line tripled the licensing fees.

I have like $800 worth of LotR, and I would have gone in on The Hobbit, but the prices were just too much for me.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

**-Loki-**

chris_valera wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And of course the new special prices on the Hobbit game can't help much.

Supposedly New Line tripled the licensing fees.

If that were the case, it might have been wiser to simply let the license go. They have to have made their money back on what they've spent building the range up by now, with the LOTR bubbles.

**chris_valera**

-Loki- wrote:
chris_valera wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And of course the new special prices on the Hobbit game can't help much.

Supposedly New Line tripled the licensing fees.

If that were the case, it might have been wiser to simply let the license go. They have to have made their money back on what they've spent building the range up by now, with the LOTR bubbles.

I don't know, Lego got in on it, and if they *had* let the license go, another company (PP?) might have snapped it up. Also, your existing figures are compatible, providing impetus for existing LotR players to check out The Hobbit.

Ultimately I think it'll be seen like the Sega CD and the 32X; an attempt to lengthen the lifespan of the original brand no one really wanted.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

**Fenrir Kitsune**

chris_valera wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And of course the new special prices on the Hobbit game can't help much.

Supposedly New Line tripled the licensing fees.

Interesting if thats true. Although I see that GW decided to pass that cost onto the customer.

Hobbits sort of died a death at the local club. Theres a few of us with LotR forces and tickling interest, but only one person actually bought a copy of the hobbit box.

Even the GW manic who buys a copy of everything direct from GW went "£50 rulebook? Thanks, but no thanks" which was a first.

**Pacific**

I don't think the 'rules have stayed the same' criticism is really a valid one, and if anything is to be expected of any GW game these days. People have been playing practically the same game of 40k for almost 15 years, with only minor variations in the rules, and have continued to snap up and play the latest edition.

Anyway if the Hobbit does tank in terms of sales (although, we can't know for sure) - how about Epic or Necromunda/Mordheim back and using the shelf space?

**A Town Called Malus**

Flashman wrote:
Compel wrote:
RiTides wrote:

Although I did just find out that apparently the "flashback dwarfs" may be coming soon... but it's just odd how few offerings they have out of the gate.

I wouldn't be surprised if the film producers didn't have some say on what could and couldn't be in the initial release. Don't want to have too many spoilers before a decent number of people saw it.

Spoiler to that pointless flashback scene outside Moria used to shoehorn a villain into the story?

I suggest you re-read the book. Azog is in it, mentioned by Gandalf as the goblin who killed Thorin's father in Moria. However they did change the story. In the book Azog was killed by Dain in Moria and Azog's son, Bolg, leads the goblins at the Battle of the Five Armies.

I guess they changed it to avoid having to introduce too many characters and it also gives Thorin a more personal enemy to face during the Battle of the Five Armies.

**nkelsch**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

I suggest you re-read the book. Azog is in it, mentioned by Gandalf as the goblin who killed Thorin's father in Moria. However they did change the story. In the book Azog was killed by Dain in Moria and Azog's son, Bolg, leads the goblins at the Battle of the Five Armies.

I guess they changed it to avoid having to introduce too many characters and it also gives Thorin a more personal enemy to face during the Battle of the Five Armies.

I think it is easier to have 'the white orc' opposed to 'the bearded orc, son of the white orc, and we don't really explain much about the son'. To most Movie go-ers, all the goblinoid guys look the same and no one even payed attention to what they were named. I was totally fine with the changes they made in regards to Azog simply because it did make sense and did improve the movie for non-book aware viewers. The only thing worse in a Book movie than changing details is shoe-horning in characters who only work because they are developed by off-scene book aspects.

**Valiant**

Independents also get a smaller discount on Hobbit products because of the license fee changes, so one reason its probably not selling as much is because of the lack of deep discounting by the big etailers

**Herzlos**

One of my FLGS's has the Hobbit box set reduced to £60 from £75 (and 2 copies of Mines of Moria for £50), so they're presumably struggling to shift it. They do seem to be stocking less GW in general though and a lot more of the newer companies so it's maybe a bigger trend in that shop than the Hobbit. If it's still there when I get paid I might have to get it for the Dwarfs and scenery. Radagast must be worth a couple of bucks on eBay too.

**Harriticus**

FLGS here didn't even order Hobbit stuff after seeing the prices combined with the actual value of what was being offered. Owner thought ahead.

**AllSeeingSkink**

chris_valera wrote:
Ultimately I think it'll be seen like the Sega CD and the 32X; an attempt to lengthen the lifespan of the original brand no one really wanted.

Well, it's the first set of releases for the first movie in a series of 3 movies. We'll see what it turns in to.

Personally I love the LOTR models that GW has developed thus far and I love the LOTR background in general. I'd be more than happy to see them use The Hobbit as an opportunity to flesh out the models and rules in to a proper large scale game. It seemed like that's where they were going for a while, but they kind of just stopped with it.

**clively**

spaceelf wrote:
Critical mass is very important in table top wargames, like in any industry. 40K continues to sell well, even though alot of people do not like it, because it is easy to find a game. LOTR does not have critical mass. It does not seem that GW is drawing lots of new blood into the Hobbit, despite the success of the film. This makes GWs statements about new players being their main customers look like a lot of hot air.

Can you point to someplace where GW made a statement about new players being the main customers? I've looked and have only seen people claiming that GW said that, but have never actually seen a statement from GW on the subject. Considering how closed mouth they are about everything I highly doubt they would have made such a stupid statement. That said, I have seen literally hundreds of posts from various interwebz peeplz claiming GW said that. Which brings to mind a quote about how a lie repeated often enough may as well be the truth.. I'm not saying you specifically are lying; just that maybe you should check your sources more.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Interesting if thats true. Although I see that GW decided to pass that cost onto the customer.

[rant]
Where else do you think GW would "pass the cost" to? Coca-Cola or that little old lady down the street? Maybe to the everyone in your country through government subsidies?

Every private business exists to make money. If the cost to produce something is X then it follows that the company will charge X+P for it, where P is profit. If X increases then of course the total price will increase. There is absolutely no reason, barring a business getting ready to fold due to price pressure, to do anything but increase their prices when costs do.

[/rant]

**jonolikespie**

clively wrote:

Where else do you think GW would "pass the cost" to? Coca-Cola or that little old lady down the street? Maybe to the everyone in your country through government subsidies?

Every private business exists to make money. If the cost to produce something is X then it follows that the company will charge X+P for it, where P is profit. If X increases then of course the total price will increase. There is absolutely no reason, barring a business getting ready to fold due to price pressure, to do anything but increase their prices when costs do.

I think the problem is a lot of us are looking at GW and seeing a business heading in that exact direction.
Besides, I agree there is no reason to reduce prices but they make something like +25% profit on each kit (that's the reason you can find so much stuff for 25% off, that's how much they sell it to 3rd party guys for and they still make a profit on that) and they are losing sales across the board from everything we hear (as you pointed out hearing something doesn't make it true but I have seen sales figures for australia, they are defiantly losing sales here). They could at least stop RAISING prices.

**AllSeeingSkink**

jonolikespie wrote:
(as you pointed out hearing something doesn't make it true but I have seen sales figures for australia, they are defiantly losing sales here). They could at least stop RAISING prices.

The Australian situation is just terrible. When I started in the hobby around 16 years ago the GW stores were a hive of activity. From memory there were 3 stores in Melbourne and I'd go to 2 of them regularly for games and just to hang out because they were on the same trainline. You could go there any time of day and there'd be people playing games on the tables. Thursday and Friday were insanity, so many people in the stores you could barely move or breathe. We used to have battlecries to decide who would have first turn and you could hear them from across the store (eventually people complained and we had to stop). It was like an extremely nerdy nightclub or something.

The atmosphere has just changed now, the number of people in the store at any given time is a fraction of what it used to be and there's just not the huge swarms of people there on gaming nights like there used to be. The models have improved, the painting has improved, the quality of the gaming tables has improved, but the actual community is a shadow of what it used to be.

**-Loki-**

Pacific wrote:
Anyway if the Hobbit does tank in terms of sales (although, we can't know for sure) - how about Epic or Necromunda/Mordheim back and using the shelf space?

Why stop there. I've been clamouring for a Warhammer Quest remake for years. I would have bought a copy second hand, but the asking price these days is on the ludicrous side.

**MightyGodzilla**

To me The Hobbit and LoTR are the same game. The Hobbit movie, while good, was no where near as epic as LoTR. Same with the games, and LoTR never seemed that interesting to me as a playable game. Honestly LoTR with prepainted minis would have been spot on....but what we've got here is just kind of a meh thing to me. Concept is so meh that I can't even bitch about the prices, because I'd never go there. Sales in my area are nil -ish and the fact that the whole thing is going to be prolonged over the next couple of years is tragic. I can't wait for the day when Tolkien/Jackson crap leaves GW and they sack up and start working on some original material.

**warboss**

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Honestly LoTR with prepainted minis would have been spot on....but what we've got here is just kind of a meh thing to me.

There was a prepainted minis LOTR game.. just not by GW.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

jonolikespie wrote:
clively wrote:

Where else do you think GW would "pass the cost" to? Coca-Cola or that little old lady down the street? Maybe to the everyone in your country through government subsidies?

Every private business exists to make money. If the cost to produce something is X then it follows that the company will charge X+P for it, where P is profit. If X increases then of course the total price will increase. There is absolutely no reason, barring a business getting ready to fold due to price pressure, to do anything but increase their prices when costs do.

I think the problem is a lot of us are looking at GW and seeing a business heading in that exact direction..

This. Another price rise in a few months as well, so more interesting stuff to come. I assume they'll raise prices of the main rulebooks to match the one set by the Hobbit.

**Kid_Kyoto**

warboss wrote:
MightyGodzilla wrote:
Honestly LoTR with prepainted minis would have been spot on....but what we've got here is just kind of a meh thing to me.

There was a prepainted minis LOTR game.. just not by GW.

didn't GW buy them out later?

**RiTides**

I do think sticker shock has a lot to do with The Hobbit not flying off the shelves (at all, from what I can tell). It's an optional, luxury purchase for many people in an already optional, luxury niche hobby. So, it's an easy skip or "save for later" for most folks at this stage.

The movie was fantastic, but so far GW is really failing to capitalize on that. People also learned from buying the previous LOTR waves, and might be waiting for all 3 movies to be released before getting anything with a rulebook, etc. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

**Flashman**

-Loki- wrote:
Pacific wrote:
Anyway if the Hobbit does tank in terms of sales (although, we can't know for sure) - how about Epic or Necromunda/Mordheim back and using the shelf space?

Why stop there. I've been clamouring for a Warhammer Quest remake for years. I would have bought a copy second hand, but the asking price these days is on the ludicrous side.

Indeed, I sold my copy for £100 plus

However, I'd suggest it's not as good as you remember it. A friend and I played it a few times before it went on ebay and we found it too random. On one occasion, we got 3 minotaurs on the first board section. Needless to say that game didn't last very long. Basically, if you were playing it to the absolute letter of the rules, it was far too easy to die.

**Sean_OBrien**

warboss wrote:
MightyGodzilla wrote:
Honestly LoTR with prepainted minis would have been spot on....but what we've got here is just kind of a meh thing to me.

There was a prepainted minis LOTR game.. just not by GW.

Took a look see just to make sure - and there are Clix figures. You can get the 7 figure starter set and a box of 24 boosters for the same price that GW is charging for the White Council.

**warboss**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

didn't GW buy them out later?

That's what I thought too but apparently they were always owned by GW ala Black Library and Forgeworld.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabertooth_Games

**Pacific**

-Loki- wrote:
Pacific wrote:
Anyway if the Hobbit does tank in terms of sales (although, we can't know for sure) - how about Epic or Necromunda/Mordheim back and using the shelf space?

Why stop there. I've been clamouring for a Warhammer Quest remake for years. I would have bought a copy second hand, but the asking price these days is on the ludicrous side.

I would recommend the new Descent Game (second edition) in that case, has been having some fabulous reviews. I own a couple of the D&D box games as well which are fun, although are much less in depth and more suited to a quick evening's play.

**Kroothawk**

Archibald_TK over at Warseer wrote:Limited Edition boxes are still available for February in my country.

A few things that are popping into my mind regarding that issue:
- I hope they did not print more regular boxes than they did limited ones. In December both were available as GW expected people to run out of limited ones in the middle of the month so they are already printed that much is sure. In what quantity is what I wonder.
- If the starter sell so slowly, it may impact what GW had in plan for the next movie, I'm talking about a possible new starter. Thought they may have thought about keeping the Escape from Goblin Town as the only starter for the duration of the whole trilogy.

Interesting tidbits: a friend of mine who worked in the world of printing told me after checking the Hobbit boxes that the method used on them was different from the one used on the regular GW boxes for 40K, WFB and the old LotR range (thought he gave me the name of the two printing method, I of course did not remember them at all). He explained to me that kind of printing is used on lower quantity runs while the one used on regular boxes is usually used only on quite larger runs. That may be a hint that GW expect the color associated with the movies to change by the end of the year in the same way it did for the previous trilogy and thus they would have to redo all of the Hobbit range, thus going for a lower production.
Since a smaller run means that production/licensing costs have to be absorbed by less models, it may have played a role in the Hobbit range pricing.

**jonolikespie**

The pricing is just getting worse and worse, which seems to indicate it isn't selling well (since GW always seem to decide raising the price to cover it up is better than lowering it to sell more).

I have wanted mounted high elves since I first got into the hobby.. about 7 or 8 years ago, and yet at $85au for 6 rivendale knights and $70au for a fincast Elrond on root and mounted I am defiantly not picking up anything Hobbit related.