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 Exergy wrote:

first in order to get 5 special weapons, you have to have 6 models as the champion cannot take a special weapon.

Also at 18 points a model, they have the same attacks as a 19 point Khorne Bezerker on the charge and more in subsequent rounds of combat. The also keep their bolters and can carry special weapons At 20 points they can pack MoK for death company like attacks(5 on the charge)

like the elite cult troops, they are only good if taken with coresponding HQ making them troops but they arent terrible.

Actually, the options list says up to four models. That means... any model in the unit. Any 4 models may take a special weapon, and an additional Chosen may take another. 5 Chosen, 5 Meltaguns.

Exergy wrote:first in order to get 5 special weapons, you have to have 6 models as the champion cannot take a special weapon.

This:

McNinja wrote:Actually, the options list says up to four models. That means... any model in the unit. Any 4 models may take a special weapon, and an additional Chosen may take another. 5 Chosen, 5 Meltaguns.

Exergy wrote:Also at 18 points a model, they have the same attacks as a 19 point Khorne Bezerker on the charge and more in subsequent rounds of combat. The also keep their bolters and can carry special weapons At 20 points they can pack MoK for death company like attacks(5 on the charge)

True, but if you're shooting your special weapon (most likely 5 plasma, since 5 melta is a little overkill unless you're trying to blow up a Superheavy...), you're not going to get your extra attack for charging. Why would you want to spend 18+15 points on a plasma gun chosen charging into close combat?

And while your Chosen might have 4 attacks on the charge base (assuming pistol/CCW charge), and 3 in subsequent rounds of combat vs. Berzerkers 4 on the charge base, 2 in subsequent rounds, and 1 point of Ld more on the squad member, Berzerkers do the CC job FAR better at WS 5, Fearless (Ld 9 Skull Champ too), Rage, Counterattack. Hell, even if you wanted to, VotW on Berzerkers are 1pt each versus Chosen's 2pts each.

Trying to make a squad both shooty and CCW for the same survivability as any other MEQ is a huge point sink in what amounts to be a versatile glass cannon, but glass nonetheless that still dies to anything that will butcher MEQ.

Exergy wrote:
like the elite cult troops, they are only good if taken with coresponding HQ making them troops but they arent terrible.

...Which comes in the form of a 265-point sink Special Character named Abaddon. The only real reason to field Chosen is for min-maxing special weapons.

mutilators have there place in the army they work just like lone wolves do in the space wolves codex give it mark of nurgle and hope they take the time to kill it or let it get ignored while 4 chainfist hits open their land raider

Someone else around the pages of dakka did some promising pointshammer and concluded that chosen were just better than chaos space marines.
After the virtually automatic wargear and unit differences chosen put out more damage for 2 or 3 points more model for model.

Abaddon is expensive. Maybe stick him with the mutilators. He can quite happily take almost any challenge anyway. In a MSU style army I think chosen are the way forward.

Being an undivided player I think they might be the way forward in general :p

DonerStoom wrote:
Someone else around the pages of dakka did some promising pointshammer and concluded that chosen were just better than chaos space marines.
After the virtually automatic wargear and unit differences chosen put out more damage for 2 or 3 points more model for model.

Abaddon is expensive. Maybe stick him with the mutilators. He can quite happily take almost any challenge anyway. In a MSU style army I think chosen are the way forward.

Being an undivided player I think they might be the way forward in general :p

Link that mathhammer? I can't seem to find it. While I agree that they put out more damage per model in an MSU list, you're basically still creating a glasscannon army that dies just as easily as any other MEQ. The only reason to take Chosen would be for special weapon spam. Afterwards, you simply get overcosted Chaos marines with little marginal utility versus marginal cost. In an MSU army, you'll still need to take Abaddon to make them scoring so that their points are relatively more worth it.

I don't see why anyone would be taking Mutilators in the first place either, tbh. The only way I could see them being run is in a Land Raider with a beatstick HQ. And even then it's not that scary a deathstar, and will still lose pretty badly if it goes up against other deathstars like Wraithwing, Draigowing, or Loganwing.

Sorry, no math. the author is sadly lost in the forms by now. It was comparisons like (no codex to hand) after votlw, close combat weapons chosen were 2 points more. Who also came with a few rules marines did not (fearless?). Rules which I remember to be well worth the points anyway. The extra attack on the profile keeps them on par with the marines in combat despite there low numbers.

I think if you then don't spam one special weapon you can create a solid 7ish man unit and only really pay for special weapons
Wouldn't it be nice to have melta, plasma and flamers in every squad.
Let's not forget, these ptential troops still have the trusty bolter if nothing else

DonerStoom wrote:
Sorry, no math. the author is sadly lost in the forms by now. It was comparisons like (no codex to hand) after votlw, close combat weapons chosen were 2 points more. Who also came with a few rules marines did not (fearless?). Rules which I remember to be well worth the points anyway. The extra attack on the profile keeps them on par with the marines in combat despite there low numbers.

I think if you then don't spam one special weapon you can create a solid 7ish man unit and only really pay for special weapons
Wouldn't it be nice to have melta, plasma and flamers in every squad.
Let's not forget, these ptential troops still have the trusty bolter if nothing else

Why make one squad multi-purpose if they can't split fire? If you fire your melta at a Land Raider, you're wasting your plasma and flamer. If you fire your flamer at a 'nid horde, you're wasting your melta. 6th ed meta is shooty, and Chosen do shooty better than most because of their ability to take 5 plasma guns in a 5-man squad - I don't see why you'd be wasting that by charging them into CC. Cheaper and more effective to take Berzerkers. It's also a false assumption to say that the extra attack keeps them on par with marines - if you lose one member, you lose two, three attacks effectively. In the long run, a tactical marine squad of the same cost with larger numbers will win. It's a fact that's been mathhammered enough times. Terminators do CC far better for the same cost.

Again, while the rules are (somewhat) worth the cost (which I still debate), Chosen are over-costed for a unit that dies just as fast as a squad half the cost. Marking them with Nurgle to make them tougher just makes them even more over-costed. If I could take a melta, plasma, and flamer on EACH squad member for the cost of 1 special weapon, well, that'd be a different matter altogether. You also replace their bolters with the special weapon, so that's gone.

if you want a good assault unit i would try out warp talons and they can deep strike.

Pulled out my codex so I can have some numbers.

After taking close combat weapons on marines chosen are 3 points more and come with an extra attack and Ld.

Consider perhaps 2 plasma guns, a missile launcher and a heavy bolter/autocannon, or combi weapos over plasma weapons.

You have a squad that still generates plenty of damage without loosing too much.
They will always be a glass cannon but they can at least weaken most squads with a multitude of weapons making them much more flexible.

5 meltaguns will always do the most damage by math sure, but throwing in A missile launcher and heavy bolter to help out with those hoards and larger units. I think you need to keep them a little flexible to keep them in the game when the dark gods mock you with terrible dice.
You of course loose the power of weapon spam but in A chosen list talking one type of special weapon is creating an obvious set of targets. A mix and match makes it much harder for Mr mech player to remove all your melta since its spread around plenty.

The extra attack goes some way to making up for the small squads but you of course have less wounds. It helps out though, your still I4 in power armour.

If you want them to be a close combat squad take terminators.
6 chosen with special weapons is close to 10 chaos marines.

In combat terminators come withbetter saves and standard weapons with cheaper options.
It's more points to give a chosen a power weapon than to take a terminator. Chosen as a combat squad just does not add up when you look at the points. Terminators win here every time without question.
Dual lighting claw terminator is 10 points cheaper than its chosen counterpart. With all the joys of being a terminator.
Warp talons would be massively better than combat chosen and you save a whole chosen models worth of points


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think chosen weapons are similar to grey knight force weapons. You don't want the whole squad to do the same thing because it only creates one kind of threat.

Having say a melta plasma flamer squad who can punk transports and scare the unit inside just sounds more usefull than 5 melta/plasma who will simply not stand up to some units because they don't have the weapon they need for the situation.

Are 5 plasmas gonna do as much damage as a missile, 2 flamers a plasma and a melta when it comes to orks or nids.

Frankly, I'm not gonna try convincing you of what is generally-accepted to be unwise to mix and match weapons of different roles and purposes (especially once you start talking about heavy and special weapons) in a unit. Nor am I going to try and rehash the well-drummed out point of why Warp Talons actually suck in the 6th ed meta.

I'm not trying to sound degrading, offensive, or stuck-up in any form whatsoever, but I do highly suggest reading up on a lot of tacticas that are sitting on this forum and various other sites.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Infiltrating Land Raider with Terminator Squad... Hohoho. I think I just found my latest toy to try out...

\

CREEEED!

I mean.... HURON!

I would lean towards the land raider if you were going for a fast infiltrate assault.

With the Land raider that counts as infiltrating one unit right? Since the transport gets the ability if they squad has it?
It's not like if you attach Huron to cultists and that counts as infiltrating two units because of the deployment rules?

I just ask because it would be a pain to have 2 landraiders infiltrated against me. On the other hand I would prefer to infiltrate havocs with heavy weapons to get side shots on the enemy's tanks.

It would be two units for reserves purposes, but would only take up one of his Infiltrate allotment.

If Huron is my Warlord and I am basing my list off of his d3 unit Infiltrate role, I would want up to 3 units to have ready to use this.

Lets face facts... LR is still to damn expensive, specially if your buying 3. Filling them with anything worthwhile is making them more expensive.

Mutilators are only worth it in a LR (which they can not get as a Dedicated transport) and in units of 3 with a Mark and VotLW because everyone doing melee should take it for the melee miss re-roll against all space marines (ironicly, Chaos included). They can not do sweeping advances. This makes Mutilators pretty dang worthless in my eyes for what they give you.

Terminators do get a LR as a dedicated transport, can have shooting weapons and Icons (Vengence at least), and have the armor/invuln save to stand up to CC that Chosen can not. Their biggest weakness is not being able to make sweeping advances.

Chosen, due to their special weapons load out, you want them to be doing more shooting than melee. Also, due to their armor, you do not want to assault (or be assaulted) by your opponent's assault units because you can't take a hit. Plus, if your taking a Rhino, not only can you not assault from it, but your limited to two fire ports. The /only/ thing a Rhino gives you is the ability to move up 6", turn to the side, and then deploy from the side and extra 6". Even if your 18" away, you can now move up and be 6" away for shooting... if your going first. Realize this is a suicide tactic and that your not expecting to survive the return fire...and your wasting 35pts on the Rhino to make it happen.
And no, you can not do 5 Chosen for 5 weapons, the Champion's list does not give an option for a special weapon, but for some extra points you /can/ give him a combi weapon. This can give you effectively 6 special weapons for a 6 man unit.

To be honest, there is no 'win' unit for this tactic. They all have flaws, some worse than others (mutilators). I feel your better off using units like Havocs/Chosen as a suicide shooty unit, and then you have to ask if you can do this with Terminators cheaper (and maybe a turn later).

 BlkTom wrote:

Mutilators are only worth it in a LR (which they can not get as a Dedicated transport) and in units of 3 with a Mark and VotLW because everyone doing melee should take it for the melee miss re-roll against all space marines (ironicly, Chaos included). They can not do sweeping advances. This makes Mutilators pretty dang worthless in my eyes for what they give you.

I've seen this quoted a few times, that VotLW works against chaos as well, but I can't seem to find it in the codex, does anyone have any proof? It would be very useful.

I do Abbadon or Kharn, 8 or 9 chosen in LR. Pick you load out for chosen

I've never seen such a compilation of horrible ideas... I'm not sure if if this thread is srs bznz or just a troll.

Now not to just waste a post...

Remove the Chaos Chosen and Mutilator entries from your codex. The only one of these three with a purpose is the terminators. Cheap and effective termicide units. The "But chosen can take 5 of X gun in a unit.", and still die at the same rate a 3+ does, regularly.

1/10 for making me post.

 Goat wrote:
I've never seen such a compilation of horrible ideas... I'm not sure if if this thread is srs bznz or just a troll.

Now not to just waste a post...

Remove the Chaos Chosen and Mutilator entries from your codex. The only one of these three with a purpose is the terminators. Cheap and effective termicide units. The "But chosen can take 5 of X gun in a unit.", and still die at the same rate a 3+ does, regularly.

1/10 for making me post.

if chosen are troops they are alright, but as elites they should never be taken.