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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:
3) Disregarding the HH series from BL, from 2nd edition onwards (I don't have a copy of RT - yet), the UM were *never* on their way to Terra.

This is actually 746,004% wrong.

How does it happen to be so wrong that it bends reality to exceed 100%? No idea. Not a scientist. It's crazy. Science. I tell ya. It does weird things. Multiple Index Astartes articles published from 2002-2004 (original White Dwarf articles were published between 2000 and 2001) definitively list the Ultramarines as headed to Terra. Those aren't the only sources, but they are definitely "from 2nd Edition onward" and not written by the Black Library. You're banging your head against a wall here.

Rogue Trader has no references to the Battle for Terra, as the idea of the Horus Heresy didn't surface until the release of Space Marine (Epic). There are mentions of it later in the Rogue Trader era, but they contain very little definitive material you're looking for.

This is a story that has been told, and retold many times over. You're trying to make a definitive statement that is not only unsupportable, but easily refuted. But worst of all, you're making a definitive statement about a story that doesn't have a definitive version. Like I mentioned, in Codex: Chaos 2nd Edition, it says "Nobody knows" why Horus lowered his shields. And it was reprinted twice in subsequent Chaos Codex books. See the problem here? The fluff isn't consistent. You can't say "X book is right". That's silly. Nearly all of the sources that suggest Horus did it because he was worried about reinforcements, don't even mention who those reinforcements are.

Time to abandon this idea. The Black Library did not, I repeat, did not invent the idea of the Ultramarines heading to Terra. They may not have been part of the Space Wolves/Dark Angels caravan, but that's probably because they were coming from another direction. But they were on the way there. And going back almost as far as that bit of fluff goes, they've been on the way, and just missed it. Just like the Space Wolves and Dark Angels. Why is this so hard to accept? What is it about the Ultramarines that forces people to be so obstinate and angry? If Codex: Angels of Death doesn't mention the Ultramarines, it's because it's a book about the Dark Angels (well, and Blood Angels). If Guilliman and Lionel didn't fist-bump on the way to Terra, then there's no reason to mention them. Codex: Ultramarines doesn't mention the Space Wolves and Dark Angels going to Terra. Does that mean they didn't? Of course not.

They didn't *just* miss it. They were so far away, news of Horus' betrayal didn't reach them until the siege was already underway.
DA book specifically states that the two of them were on their way to Terra.
UM book says they were too far away, and their only early contribution was defeating a bunch of chaos reinforcements. It's entirely possible to intercept people going somewhere without heading in the same direction. Hence the term "intercepting"; it'd be overtaking them, otherwise...
Again, come up with some references or quotes from your supposed 2nd edition sources. Despite what you may think, I'm not unreasonable - I've already conceded that the UM were indeed more numerous than the other chapters put together after the Scouring upon checking the Codex.
I've heard a lot about your sources (from you) by now. Put your money where your mouth is, so I can check it out.

@ Galdos: To each their own, I suppose. I much preferred the Heresy when it was just a smattering of tales from a near-legendary past and no one knew exactly what happened, leaving it as just a cool part of 40K's background without too much (mostly disappointing) flesh to it.

Il bet that the only way the Horus vs Emperor fight is even remotely even will be because the Emperor is weakened/drained from sitting in the Golden chair.
But by then in about 5 - 10 years time the quality of the books will have gone to far south, there are more and more face palm/really stupidity moments in the latest four books than in the first ones with Betrayer being one of the most stupid books i ever read. If i face palmed for real i would have had a hand imprint in my face after that one... That being said, there are some books in there that are good, but they are very few.

Horus let the Emperor onto his ship [/u]on purpose.[u] He wanted to fight him. Horus was asking for a beatdown. If he hadn't died then he would have won the whole heresy war.

You're gonna flail wildly at this one to the death aren't you?

If the are too far to the East, what direction can they go and still find Chaos guys? If the answer isn't "west", present an even slightly rational explanation.

Please do. That ought to be funny. Or ludicrously stupid. One of the two. It will suffice for our purposes.

Look. I understand you're having a hard time being wrong. I understand that you want to keep changing the parameters of the argument until you figure one out that makes you right. You said "since at least 2nd Edition." You said "I can think of absolutely no effing reason whatsoever to change it" I've shown you subsequent sources that predate The Black Library. I showed you sources that demonstrate that the fluff has definitively included the Ultramarines, that are likely older than your experience with the game if you don't have any Rogue Trader material on hand.

Even better, and this is the part where you are allowed to just go run off and hide, you said "With old fluff then having the Ultramarines, just like everyone else, trying to get there ASAP, but just being too far away and delayed too much by the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion to make the difference". The Word Bearers and Alpha Legion involvement in the Ultima Segmentum didn't get detailed in the fluff until the Index Astartes articles. That's right kiddo. You tried to use 3rd Edition fluff to support your argument for 2nd Edition. And then tried to change the parameters of the discussion to exclude 3rd Edition fluff sources? Child, please.


In the wise words of Hudson, "Game over man. Game over."

Nobody has a hard-on for the Ultramarines. Nobody is making changes to the fluff. You're just unwilling to accept the reality of the situation. Yeah, Codex: Ultramarines was kinda vague. Subsequent material from the same era, written while the same guys were in charge of 40K fluff, was more clear. Nothing about what is written in Codex: Ultramarines says the Ultramarines didn't go to Terra. It's one short paragraph that just says that they didn't fight at Terra. That's an important distinction to make, considering the subsequent fluff that is longer than a single paragraph says they did go there.



I know you really, really wanted to win this. I know you really, really thought you had. Sorry man. This is the deep end of the pool where the big kids swim. Not a good place to be if you're still using Fluff Floaties. One of these days, you'll get to be Harrison Ford. This time, you're River Phoenix.

OK, I'll bite one last time.
1) Point to where I said that I disallow 3rd edition sources.
2) 2nd edition codices are the easiest to access as they tend to have most of the information in one place, so that's what I used.
3) Whether they never left for Terra, were delayed too much by the Word Bearers, or whether angels paved the way and laid out the red carpet is irrelevant. The point was, and is that in all cases, all existing background that I could track down states outright that the UM were too far away to make a difference.

IA: Ultramarines does state that the UM headed for Terra ASAP upon hearing the news. It also pretty much copy-pastes everything else from C: UM 2nd edition; ie the UM were always too far away and heard the news far too late.

IA: Alpha Legion says the Alpha Legion moved east *after* Horus' defeat where they met and trolled the UM who were only then heading to Terra. Again, much too late.
It even goes so far as to suggest that it's possible the UM weren't heading to Terra but were going after the Alpha Legion as they were the only traitor legion close enough for them to vent their rage on. (Possibly by the Alpha Legion's choice.)

These are the *only* two sources I can find that say the UM were even on their way, and both of them say they weren't anywhere near Terra when the final showdown went down.
Everything else, from 2nd ed C: UM to the most recent, only states that they couldn't help with the siege, but were instrumental in holding the Imperium together and rebuilding it afterwards.

IA: Word Bearers directly contradicts the UM being able to move to Terra, as it has Kor Phaeron and a bunch of WB dudes chasing the UM back to Ultramar during the Heresy. It's kinda hard to advance towards Terra when you're being pushed back to your home system far east from it.

IA: Black Legion, IA: World Eaters, and a description of the Siege of the Imperial Palace in the former both state that Horus lowered his shields when word came of the combined Dark Angel and Space Wolves fleets which "were only hours away".

Thanks for playing. While your attitude has led me to the ignore button, I do thank you for getting me to dig up a bunch of old WDs with cool stuff in them that I will enjoy perusing again.

Bran Dawri wrote:
IA: Ultramarines does state that the UM headed for Terra ASAP upon hearing the news. .

So then we're done here.

Good lord. Was that so hard? You had to turn this into some long, drawn out process instead of just listening when everyone told you what the reality was?

I will admit, your snippy attempt to salvage your ego by pretending that one line doesn't undo everything you said was kinda funny.

The fluff varies regarding this stuff.

I prefer the interpretation that Horus was on the verge of winning, and he wanted to kill the Emperor personally. He wanted the Emperor to answer personally for everything he put Horus through and every injustice his Imperium stood for. Horus wouldn't settle for nuking the Emperor from orbit or having him mauled by thousands of World Eaters.

That was why he let the Emperor come to him.

The battle between then wasn't about the Imperium striking down the Traitor Legions. It wasn't about the ultimate conflict between law and chaos. The battle between Horus and the Emperor was just father and son, and all the pain they'd caused each other.

It was irrational of Horus. But, the Heresy was not born of rationality. Horus' rebellion was born of ambition and loathing in equal measure. It was an expression of Horus' irrational discontent towards the universe as a whole. He was one of the most powerful, most esteemed, most privileged men in the universe and he wanted more.

When he beat the Emperor he still wanted more. Knowing that the Emperor was dead wouldn't be enough. The Emperor needed to suffer, and at Horus' hands.

The Horus Heresy was doomed from the beginning, because of the motivation behind it. Even if it had succeeded and the Emperor slain, Horus still wouldn't have been satisfied.

What was the motivation LL? I thought it was to rule all of mankind, but Horus wanted it for himself.

Even if Horus rationalized the beginning of his betrayal with the idea that he would "rescue" humanity from the Emperor, it really comes down to a kind of nihilism: "let the galaxy burn."

His arrogance killed him.

Yeah that has basically been my argument as well. He wanted to kill the ultimate being and man with his own hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MeVxKZBOfM
Boom. This is how.

How did Horus lose?

He didn't. He won a pyrrhic victory.

In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.

The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.


So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.

clively wrote:
How did Horus lose?

He didn't. He won a pyrrhic victory.

In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.

The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.


So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.

There is a lot wrong here, like everythign about it is wrong.

First, learn what a Pyrrhic victory is.

A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated. examples: The British had a Pyrric Victory during the Battle of Bunker Hill, even though they drove the Americans from the field of battle, the casulties the Brits suffered were so bad, they had to abandon the city of Boston (A Brit soldier wrote "another victory like that and we will loose the war") The Tet Offensive could be argured a victory for the Americans. Even though the Americans completely destroyed the NVA, the very fact that battle happened caused the US military to lose support for the war back home. This would be vital in allowing the North to convince the US to a peace treaty.

For it to be a Pyrrhic Victory, Horus had to conquer Terra.



Second you used these game terms which is completely ridiculous. Those are there to simply help gamers figure out who won when both sides loose 90%
The goal of Horus was to kill the Emperor and take over the Imperium. The Imperial goal is to defeat Horus attack, you dont even need to kill him to achieve this, you just need to drive him off. (This simply means the war will go on longer)

-Horus is killed
-The Emperor lives (he was alive at the time clearly, he also still rules the imperium now, even if only in name)
-The Imperium survives
- The organized armies of Chaos retreat
-The armies of Chaos turn on each other

+ They killed Sanguinius
+ They injured the Emperor

Sweet jesus this was an outstanding success for the Imperium judging from this here. The Imperium survived and Horus and his army was destroyed with Horus killed. They retreat to the Eye of Terror to start licking their wounds and having a power struggle.

The Imperium also begans to lick their wounds but Guilliman takes charge and continues to lead the Imperium on the way it was suppose to be, especially sense the Emperor is still in power on the Golden Throne.

Hundreds, if not thousands of years AFTER the battle, Guilliman is dead, and the Emperor is too weak to talk to his council so they must rule for him. That is why the Imperium changed, but that doesnt mean the Imperium changed and the forces of Chaos rejoice because the Imperium and the Emperor still live.




No the Battle of Terra was a MASSIVE LOSS for Horus and his armies. Now for the Chaos Gods? Thats a different story, thats actually a marginal victory for the Chaos Gods

clively wrote:
How did Horus lose?

He didn't. He won a pyrrhic victory.

In game terms you could say he accomplished all of his secondary objectives: first blood, slay the warlord and line breaker. He also accomplished one of his primary objectives: destroying the Imperium. His other primary objective was to take complete control of what was left of the Imperium: he failed at that one. And yes, the Imperium as it was at the time was utterly blown away and something else, almost it's complete opposite, was ushered in.

The Emperor on the other hand accomplished one secondary objective: slay the warlord; and one primary: Stop Horus from taking over.


So, if we assign 3 VP to each primary and 1 VP to each secondary objective we end up with Horus winning 6 to 4. Which was still a win even though he wasn't there to celebrate it.

This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.

I'm reminded of that scene from Billy Madison.

However, it did make me laugh, so bravo.

 kronk wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
For obvious reasons I hope that Horus didn't really plan on dropping his shield but instead, the Alpha Legion 'makes it happen', and the rest is... history?

Or Little Horus does it...

If the latter, interesting, but Aximand strikes me as someone who has convinced himself he's right, certainly after they reattached his face. If the former, I will burn the galaxy myself because it's Alpha Sue Legion.

I must say, I think clively did a pretty good job of explaining it and I find it to be rather fluff-accurate.

For example:

 Galdos wrote:

clively wrote:
He won a pyrrhic victory.

First, learn what a Pyrrhic victory is.

A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated.

Victory can be defined differently by the belligerents and there might be different goals that together constitute victory for either. Horus wanted to destroy the Imperium and and he wanted to kill the Emperor and he wanted to rule whatever was left. He arguably achieved the first two and unarguably failed to achieve the last. So he could be said to have been victorious at least in some sense. Now, as a separate matter, what is a Pyrrhic victory? As you say, it requires victory. We've established that we have a victory here, to some extent. What else does it require? A high cost -- in fact a cost so high that further "victories" of the same sort would mean defeat. That sounds on-point. The Traitors achieved most of their goals at the cost of enormous casualties, from which they would never recover, and their Warmaster. If they had attempted another Siege of Terra back then or even if they attempted it today, they would likely be utterly and forever devastated. Hence, if you accept that Horus was victorious at Terra in some sense, it is correct to characterize that achievement as a Pyrrhic victory. Of course, whether Horus did accomplish some of his goals is a matter of debate.

 Manchu wrote:
I must say, I think clively did a pretty good job of explaining it and I find it to be rather fluff-accurate.

For example:

 Galdos wrote:

clively wrote:
He won a pyrrhic victory.

First, learn what a Pyrrhic victory is.

A Pyrrhic Victory is when the side that achieves victory on the battlefield achieves it as such a high cost, it is actually considered a defeated.

Victory can be defined differently by the belligerents and there might be different goals that together constitute victory for either. Horus wanted to destroy the Imperium and and he wanted to kill the Emperor and he wanted to rule whatever was left. He arguably achieved the first two and unarguably failed to achieve the last. So he could be said to have been victorious at least in some sense. Now, as a separate matter, what is a Pyrrhic victory? As you say, it requires victory. We've established that we have a victory here, to some extent. What else does it require? A high cost -- in fact a cost so high that further "victories" of the same sort would mean defeat. That sounds on-point. The Traitors achieved most of their goals at the cost of enormous casualties, from which they would never recover, and their Warmaster. If they had attempted another Siege of Terra back then or even if they attempted it today, they would likely be utterly and forever devastated. Hence, if you accept that Horus was victorious at Terra in some sense, it is correct to characterize that achievement as a Pyrrhic victory. Of course, whether Horus did accomplish some of his goals is a matter of debate.

Oh ya had the forces of Chaos won it would have been a Pyrrhic Victory just one problem, the Imperium clearly won it

The Emperor survived, he was injured but being injured does not mean the same as killing. He is unable to give commands but he is still able to control the Astronomical.
The Imperium survived under the rule of Guilliman for several more years until Fulgrim finally eleminated him. Even so the Imperium still survived.

The traitors failed to achieve any of their goals. They were driven from the field of battle in disgrace, their army was divided, their leader killed, their opponent survived and remained in power. This was a complete defeat for them in everyway.

 Galdos wrote:

Oh ya had the forces of Chaos won it would have been a Pyrrhic Victory just one problem, the Imperium clearly won it

The Emperor survived, he was injured but being injured does not mean the same as killing. He is unable to give commands but he is still able to control the Astronomical.
The Imperium survived under the rule of Guilliman for several more years until Fulgrim finally eleminated him. Even so the Imperium still survived.

The traitors failed to achieve any of their goals. They were driven from the field of battle in disgrace, their army was divided, their leader killed, their opponent survived and remained in power. This was a complete defeat for them in everyway.

Interesting. Consider this: the stated reason the Emperor founded the Imperium was to reunite humanity across the galaxy, purge it of xenos and destroy religion in all forms.

After the siege of Terra, the Imperium was turned on it's head. The galaxy is far from being reunited, it is certainly overrun by Xenos of all stripes, shapes and colors; and instead of purging religion the muppets call the Emperor a God and actively worship him. I'd say Horus clearly won on that point.

Next, I'm not sure I'd say the Emperor "survived" as such; he was turned into a flashlight immediately after the battle. I guess you could call that survival...I wouldn't. Another win for Horus.

To be fair, Horus was obliterated: so, he lost that point.

Regarding goals: you can achieve your objectives while being driven from the field. Horus did this in spades because the galaxy started burning and still continues to do so while the Imperium falls further and further into the grips of Chaos. Even if he had killed the Emperor, Horus would have left Terra simply because the inbound loyal legions would have destroyed the rest of his forces. He knew he had a single opportunity to claim his objective; and he did it.

So, to sum up: Pyrrhic victory goes to Horus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.

Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
However, it did make me laugh, so bravo.

Awesome, glad you enjoyed.

There seems to be a lot of imperial love here so I will say this. The Big E is pretty much dead. Pskers and man power that could be used to fight chaos are instead used to keep him alive. Meanwhile every space marine legion is neutered. Technology is being lost and the cadian gate is as good as gone when the 13th crusade kicks off.

Chaos doesn't care about time. Just results. Horus took the emp out of the fight and every known loyal primarch is dead or missing.

That doesn't seem like much of a victory.

 sfshilo wrote:
There seems to be a lot of imperial love here so I will say this. The Big E is pretty much dead. Pskers and man power that could be used to fight chaos are instead used to keep him alive. Meanwhile every space marine legion is neutered. Technology is being lost and the cadian gate is as good as gone when the 13th crusade kicks off.

Chaos doesn't care about time. Just results. Horus took the emp out of the fight and every known loyal primarch is dead or missing.

That doesn't seem like much of a victory.

Yeah, IoM won phyrric victory IMHO,...But if you look at end result, clearly chaos won.....
- IoM is in stagnation ruled by a corrupt system
- loyal primarchs are zero active
- fanatics and heretics who would be burned in emperor's time roam free
- emperor is a meatbag
- I and Gk are fueling chaos more then WE did in pre-heresy

clively wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.

Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.

Or in this case, where history was written by a bunch of British in the late 80s, early 90s.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

clively wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This is sheer lunacy, conceived by completely twisting the parameters of victory to suit your particular purpose.

Perhaps, of course history is often written by the victors... and, if there are none, by those capable of spreading their own version further than any other.

Or in this case, where history was written by a bunch of British in the late 80s, early 90s.

LOL

Horus's goals are somewhat mysterious. McNeill has him wanting to "save" humanity from the tyrant Emperor on Davin. But Horus doesn't seem too interested in that at any other point. Other writers have him wanting to be the new emperor. This seems rather petty, in a way. There remains, however, his enigamatic prophesy "Let the galaxy burn." Truly, this is the goal of Chaos.

Now, considering that the Imperium is at its core not some polity but rather the on-going unity of all mankind, then its opposite must be Chaos. Notice that the entire scope of the Heresy, from its seeds unto its final outcome, seems to be Chaos seeping into the Imperium. The reunification of Terra, by contrast, was seemingly not troubled by Chaos. But as soon as the Emperor took a major step toward unifying humanity, i.e., by creating the Primarchs, Chaos stepped in.

In this sense, I really wonder if Horus had goals in the military sense we are used to talking about or, perhaps more precisely, if they even mattered. In the final analysis, it seems that Horus was merely the pawn of Chaos. If that's true, the perhaps "let the galaxy burn" was his only meaningful mission statement -- namely that he would usher in an era where the Great Crusade could never come to fulfillment, where mankind could never be truly unified -- not only as a matter of overcoming the threats from without but forever making this unity vulnerable to the threats from within.

In other words, if that is true then Horus did certainly achieve his mission ... or again, more precisely, the mission of Chaos.

clively wrote:

Interesting. Consider this: the stated reason the Emperor founded the Imperium was to reunite humanity across the galaxy, purge it of xenos and destroy religion in all forms.

Wrong, the Emperor founded the Imperium to save Humanity. He would do this by purging xenos because xenos could not be trusted and destroying religion his hope being that if no religion exist people would not fall into Chaos. He wanted people to see there is no gods out there, only logic and reason.

After the siege of Terra, the Imperium was turned on it's head. The galaxy is far from being reunited, it is certainly overrun by Xenos of all stripes, shapes and colors; and instead of purging religion the muppets call the Emperor a God and actively worship him. I'd say Horus clearly won on that point.

That just means the war is not over, this isnt an actual point as much as the setting. Thats like saying the Allies lost D-Day because Germany still existed. That has nothing to do with the battle in Normandy (Battle of Terra)

Horus did not create a master plan that see the Emperor turned into a God, in fact he wanted to STOP that very thing from occuring. However, the fact the Emperor is now a God has nothing to do with the Battle of Terra because it occured so many years later. You wouldnt say Napoleon died at Waterloo because Waterloo saw him banished to that one island where he would die because he felt he failed. Whats the wording Im looking for? The Emperor becoming a god is not caused by the results of the Battle of Terra, but the results of the battle of Terra contribute to it.

Next, I'm not sure I'd say the Emperor "survived" as such; he was turned into a flashlight immediately after the battle. I guess you could call that survival...I wouldn't.

The Emperor still lives able to use himself as the light of the Astronomical allowing the Imperium to survive and mankind to move among the starts. This is huge thing for the Imperium because had the Emperor died, no one would have controlled the Astronomical and the Imperium would have collapsed. Ya its not survival like how we know it but would you say that Stephan Hawkings wasnt really alive because he could do anything phyiscally? That he wasnt really alive.

Regarding goals: you can achieve your objectives while being driven from the field. Horus did this in spades because the galaxy started burning and still continues to do so while the Imperium falls further and further into the grips of Chaos. Even if he had killed the Emperor, Horus would have left Terra simply because the inbound loyal legions would have destroyed the rest of his forces. He knew he had a single opportunity to claim his objective; and he did it.

Yes you can thats right. The problem is you dont seem to understand what Horus objective was. His plan was to kill the Emperor and install himself in the Emperor's place. THIS IS KEY. Horus wants to CONTROL THE IMPERIUM. Horus plan is kill the Emperor, and from the palace on Terra, force the other legions to surrender and unite with him as a family. Horus would now be in control of the Imperium as many of the defenders of the Imperium would turn sides once the Council of Terra tells them too which they would if the Emperor died and Horus told them to do it. Horus does not want the forces of Chaos to destroy the Imperium, the Imperium its "rightfully" his to command.



So lets look at this again.

A Pyrrhic victory is when the side THAT WON THE BATTLE did it as such a cost, it is considered a strategic defeat. Its a Tactical victory that is also a strategic defeat.
For the battle to be a tactical victory, Horus needs to control Terra.


Horus goals are:
To Conquer Terra
To take control of the Imperium (NOT TO DESTROY IT, Do not mix up the forces of Chaos with Horus, they desire different things)
To kill the Emperor


The Imperiums goals are
To hold Terra
to drive Horus back

THATS IT! If every single traitor was killed to the man and the Emperor died. The Imperium would still emerge victorious against the forces of Horus. The Council of Terra can rule the Imperium until Guilliman arrives to take charge. was be a costly battle with the Emperor dead but now he is a Martyr and Martyrs can sometimes do more in death than in life. As long as the Imperium survives things are okay. (What would happen about the astronmical could be question later)

Lets look at the results of the battle
Horus is killed
The traitor legions retreat
the traitor legions are leaderless and turn on each other.

The Imperium still stands.
There are still leaders governing the Imperium
The Emperor retains enough of his strength to control the Astronomical.



Now lets look at 10k years later. Is the Emperor still contoling the Astronomical? Yes. Does the Imperium still do its job of protecting humanity from the the xenos? Yes it still fights the good fight (note this means the war is still ongoing) Is the Imperium a place of science? No, however that is because the Emperor could not lead it properly anymore and the Council of Terra decided to take a different method to save Humanity different from the Emperor's vision. Saying that Horus won at Terra because it no longer is the same beliefs it once was is like saying that Britain won the American Revolution because America is now a global power with several strong alliances with other nations, something George Washington (the first President/father of the nation) was very against. All this means is that the nation is taking a very different approach from the original vision. Religion is massive, see the previous sentince.

The war is still going on but that does not mean that the Battle of Terra is a success for Horus because the war is still going 10k years later. It just means the war is still going 10k years later.

Horus lost BAD. Horus was crushed and it took thousands of years before the forces of Horus could fight again as a massive army. Horus failed to accomplish his plans for the Battle of Terra and it cost him his life in the process. Also remember that achieving 1 objective you set for yourself does not mean you won the battle. The Imperium was the clear cut winner of the battle though the Imperium won at a great cost. Do not mistake the Imperium winning at a great cost with Horus emerging victorious.

ollanius pius...... yay i contributed!

It was a Pyrrhic victory, but for the IOM. The term comes from Pyrrhos a ruler of an Eastern kingdom, he fought the Romans. And he won but his victory was so costly that he told his advisers: "One more victory like this and we are undone."

For the IOM the Horus Heresy ended in a Pyrrhic victory because they are in tatters, on his deathbed Empy finally embraced that humans need to believe in something and the traitors rooted up the Imperium to such a degree that it's left to rot while they come from time to time from the warp to wreak havoc upon the IOM. If anyone won then it's the Ruinous Powers who got the powerbase they needed with the ruined husk that is the IOM today.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It was a Pyrrhic victory, but for the IOM. The term comes from Pyrrhos a ruler of an Eastern kingdom, he fought the Romans. And he won but his victory was so costly that he told his advisers: "One more victory like this and we are undone."

For the IOM the Horus Heresy ended in a Pyrrhic victory because they are in tatters, on his deathbed Empy finally embraced that humans need to believe in something and the traitors rooted up the Imperium to such a degree that it's left to rot while they come from time to time from the warp to wreak havoc upon the IOM. If anyone won then it's the Ruinous Powers who got the powerbase they needed with the ruined husk that is the IOM today.

Thank you for posting it correctly.


I would not call that a Pyrrhic Victory personally but yes I can see how someone could make that argument. I simply dont agree but no problem.

Chaos definetly won in Battle of Terra though they only won a minor victory, it was still a victory. They achieved the only goal they cared about, stop the Emperor and his success in his fight against Chaos.

So you are distinguishing between Chaos and Horus? That's not a bad point. Horus was used by Chaos -- I wonder to what extent Horus was even aware of Chaos.

 Manchu wrote:
So you are distinguishing between Chaos and Horus? That's not a bad point. Horus was used by Chaos -- I wonder to what extent Horus was even aware of Chaos.

He knew he had support but ya I wonder how much support he realized he had.

After all, he knew Fulgrim was a daemon and the Death Guard are all Plague Marines but Horus never seemed to acknowledge them.