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Daston wrote:
I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

Unlike Warhammer though, you don't need 3-4 boxes (If they're guardsmen) to field them how you'd want them, you just need that one purchase and boom, perfectly competent squad.
~
After realizing it would cost me about $100+ to resurrect my necron army to only about 750 pointsish and then seeing that I could purchase the Menoth 2 player battle portion for $37 after S&H I made the switch. Even taking into account that that price was from ebay, PP still retail prices their stuff well and understandably. That along with them being more "gamer" focused I can't wait to get deeper into Warmahordes

I think it is interesting that GW thinks that 90% of its sales come from "little timmy" that buys a few boxes of SM's and then quits. Hence the logic (?) that they can charge whatever for em since they don't care about repeat customers.

It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens. Maybe a 200% price hike to make up for lost sales? Maybe they are right and we should all quit to spare them our rants.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes.

I've personally passed on the chaos codex, dinobot swoop, and now the DA Chbi hawks over price. The DA fliers would have to almost half what it is for me to buy.

Same here. Althought not only passing on the price. All those models are god awful. DA was my first army back in RT era....but the new DA models are horrible in my opinion. That new plasma speeder thing looks stupid. The newfliers look like bricks with wings. And dont even get me started on the new terminators.

keisukekun wrote:
It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens.

This is suggested give or take every 3 months and it's never gone anywhere.

most of the product we wouldn't buy would actually have been purchased by a retailer or distributor, so we'd be impacting them more than anything else, not GW directly.

 Ouze wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens.

This is suggested give or take every 3 months and it's never gone anywhere.

lol and I never expect it to. Though I do wonder if GW would rather regulars quit the hobby all together and see us as more trouble than we are worth.

$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

GW priced me out 2 years ago. Dust FTW.

 BlueDagger wrote:
$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

I'm not there yet, but I'll probably be done buying for a while, before the summer price increase hits.

I'm barely hanging on to my Eldar, as I want to take a peek at the new codex, before I get rid of them. I haven't played them since around 2009 though.

I enjoy the game immensely, and I enjoy 6th. So I won't be quitting, but after Chaos, I won't be starting any new armies, I will probably get some Daemon allies for my Chaos, unless they units are priced into oblivion by their release.

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

It's also worth noting that Infinity's blisters mostly cost less than half of what GW's blisters cost.

And how much were GW metal solo models?



$14... how many of those do you need for a 40k army?

You are correct that $75 will net you more GW plastic models then Infinity Metal models. However you also need a codex and a rulebook to play...

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

Are you even reading the thread? This is literally the argument that I just countered five posts ago.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Sorry to get your hopes up for super cheap minis though. Like I said, I'm an idiot and lack of sleep doesn't help that. Going back to fix that now.

I can't forgive you. Unless you buy me some of those border world rangers, that is...

I almost wish I wasn't moving out now, so I could sink money into them...

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

One of the problems with these sorts of discussions is that you generally don't have a framework set out in the beginning regarding how you will compare different systems in terms of costs.

Right now - the entry cost for Games Workshop to get to an "average" sized game (say 1500-2000 points) is much higher than it is to get to an average game size for Infinity, Warmachine, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warlord, AE-Bounty, Urban War, Gears of War, Anima...pretty much any game you can think of.

The baseline Troops (grunts...whatever the particular system calls them) for GW isn't really that bad though. GW troops go for around $3-4 each on average for your average grunt. Infinity grunts go for about $6 each. PP troops are around $5 each. Urban Mammoth are $5-6 each. Warlord are $4-5 each. Bolt Action are about $2 each.

Character models, singles, solos - whatever the system calls them - GW is awful. GW averages about $20 each - with some of them getting above $50 for a single figure. Any Infinity solo ends up running $10-12. A PP solo ends up running $10-11. A Urban War solo ends up running $10. A Warlord solo ends up running $6. A Bolt Action solo...well they don't really have solos.

Vehicles and larger monsters - GW ends up being on the higher end of things to awful depending on the game and the material the manufacturer works with.

All of that though really is irrelevant if you are talking about new gamers or starting a new army. If you already have an army of Space Marines or High Elves and just want to pick up one box to add options to your list building - then GW isn't that bad compared to the rest of them. However, if you are looking at starting a new army or want to get someone involved in gaming - GW is a pretty hard sell. Even if you were just to look at the very basic game (HQ plus 2 troops) you are about the same as a descent starter force for most other games. Not to mention the additional figures to be painted (which can also be a hard sell) and the rulebooks.
_________________

Regarding the original question though - I stopped buying GW because I didn't care for the direction the rules took primarily. Add into that that I didn't like the stylistic direction they were taking. And add onto that that the manner in which GW dealt with (or failed to deal with) the community. Price has never been a significant factor for me - or at least it hasn't been for quite some time. I pay much more for miniatures now on average than I did when I played GW games. I don't mind paying quite a bit for miniatures...though I prefer to feel good about it. GW doesn't make me feel good when I spend money with them (or even just avoid making me feel like I am supporting a relationship between crack hos and their abusive pimp).

 Kingsley wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

Are you even reading the thread? This is literally the argument that I just countered five posts ago.

On the note of quantity of models vs models needed to play, quality enters into the equation on price. Can anyone here honestly say that GW Zombies are worth their price? What about a Dialogus? There are plenty of cases where GW has mediocre models bidding at top quality prices.

I honestly have no problem spending $30-50 on a single model, IF that model looks cool enough, even if I'll never game with it once. I buy certain models solely to paint, and in that case, cool negates price.

Now, when you tell me that I need 30 of them to play your game, and they don't look cool enough for me to buy 30 of them regardless of that game, then we have an issue.

I can stomach buying 10 models that I may not love in order to play a game, provided I can use a few that I do love. For GW games though, there are basically taxes you have to pay to play the game model wise, and not everyone likes those tax models(core, troops). I despise the current line of High Elves core troops for many reasons. But for me to play High Elves, there is a minimum number of those ugly models that I am forced to take within the rules. Luckily for me I have cool models that offset that, but that is not always the case. Empire infantry are 100% hideous to me in their current iteration, and as such I've shelved plans for that army until I am able to round up sufficient numbers of the previous edition models.

the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

I don't mind paying for good stuff like the new Plaguebearers or nurglings but I will not pay 1cent for any finecast. So my answer is deliver superb kits in good material and I can close my eyes to some of the shiny things from other companies... Personally I think 28mm 32mm scale/prices fit skirmish better rather than mass battles.
I'm more into other companies things for the last 4 years tough, and going stronger.

I love the 40k background, and I love the look of the models, but I hate the prices. I will still buy 40k models because they are the only models I can find that "feel" like 40k. (I have bought wargames factory stuff before, and I plan on using them as I.G. but that's all.) I have looked into dropzone commander, but I'm not quite sure whether it's worth the investment. The hobby isn't as expensive as others, but it is annoyingly expensive.


tl;dr: I dislike the prices, but like how it looks.

 Kingsley wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

However, from a standpoint of painting and gaming, I personally look at it like this: Buy $50 Infinity. I now spend a week or two lavishing detail on a couple models. Within a couple weeks, I am ready to play, with fully painted models. I enjoy an immersive gaming system, and can add new models to my taste. When I get bored with painting/playing my faction, I spend $50 more, and change factions, or I simply play one of the sector lists for my faction.

With 40k, $50 is 1/2 a rulebook, one codex, or a squad. It takes about $500 to reach the same amount of activity by 40k's rules. To get this thing fully painted, it wall take me a couple months. I am quite likely sick of my armies colour scheme by the end. It will take about the same amount of effort to start a new faction.

Therefore, if I like painting and playing a variety of models, Infinity is better.

I have cut my purchasing of GW stuff to a minimum for a couple of reasons.
Price is a major issue. I cant see investing in more of a system that costs as much as this system does. Prices have risen to the point where they are a deciding factor.
I also dont like the way that the internal balance of the system is going. Bothers me that there is such disparity between the codex in terms of power etc.
The system is going a way that i dont like. I have had similar feelings about past systems. So, recently I began to sell my armies off. Sold 7 armies for lord of the rings. Sold off two of my 40k armies and have begun to sell off a third. I am going to wait and see if there is any change. If there is, I may hang around, otherwise I will persist in NOT buying new minis and just converting existing models in my collection into peices that i can continue to use.

I have been thinking. GW has not really priced me out of their game, but they have encouraged me to play smaller games. 2k is about as high as I am willing to go, and I prefer the 1000-1850 range. So I am thinking I am just going to buy and play with less (not to mention paint what I already have) rather then quite the game entirely. That, and I will sell of stuff I don't like or use. (Tau come to mind...)

chrisjuuuh wrote:
the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

Serious question, but have you given 'skirmish' games a proper go? I used to think along your lines when I last played 40k (about 15 years ago), and when I got into wargaming again with LotR I started building up some big armies in that. But then over the next few years I got into Confrontation, then Hell Dorado, Cutlass, 7TV and a few others, and found that I really enjoyed games with essentially a small group of heroes, where the actions of each of your models counts, rather than controlling a faceless horde and spending 6 hours flinging hundreds of dice across the table.

Oh, and I don't play (and am not particularly enamoured of) Infinity but the current discussion about it and pricing is well on the money. A game that you can get the book of and a small starter force for less than the price of a couple of grunt squads is the way to go for me.

The basic rules for infinity are really easy to read and very enlightening. I have been thinking about buying into infinity. Just as a secondary game. Also games like Uncharted seas interest me since i can buy two fleets and the rules for about the price of a couple squads of 40k stuff.

I have heard nothing but good things about infinity myself...

I’m trying to think what GW stuff I bought last year...

Chaos Codex
Crusade of Fire
Warp Smith
Aspiring Champion (plastic)
Dark Vengeance
6th Ed Rulebook

I also got a Dinobot for my Birthday and 10 Immortals/10 Lychguard, but they were free, so I guess they don’t count.

On the other hand I spent tons of money on Kickstarters (Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Reaper Bones, 4 whole factions for Relic Knights), got heaps of map packs and tile packs for the 40K RPG’s we play, and bought every outstanding 40K RPG book I didn’t already own. And I got some odds and ends from various other miniature companies.

Yeah. That embargo kinda killed most of my interest in buying anything from GW – certainly a lot less than I used to. I mean, there are things I want – plastic Screamers and Nurglings for one – but none of them are all that urgent.

Had I the money to get all the GW stuff I want (bunch of the Newcron stuff, a few bits of new Chaos stuff, some Tyranid stuff and some of the new DA stuff) I’d probably just spend the money on oodles of Battlefield in a Box and Quantum Gothic terrain instead...

 Kingsley wrote:
These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

Modelling is probably the most important aspect for me - however, I am not limited to GW or what GW thinks is cool (see the recent flyers and Chaos for what bugs me about GW styling taken to the extreme).

But - I also like variety - much more so than what you get with GW. Painting 100 IG grunts or tyranids doesn't really let you get a variety of modeling done. It just lets you get pretty good at doing the same thing (over and over again). I don't mind that - but I like being able to have a playable, painted force done without having to paint several dozen of the same thing if I get bored and just want something different.

chrisjuuuh wrote:
the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

When I am feeling like putting big armies on the table - I often use 15 mm rules but use the larger figures. Quite often you can go straight in with no changes to the rules. The worst case - double all distances (weapons ranges, movements, visibility...). Gruntz works well enough in that manner and will let you get a whole lot of figures on the table. I also use Defiance from MJ12 for games as large as 80 or so on each side (can go larger - though I think that was the biggest game we played with the rules).
_____________________

Regarding both that issue and the above modeling issue - it is another thing which caused me to go away from games like those made by GW (and for that matter PP or any other company that makes a range of miniatures for their rules). I like different things. Modeling new stuff. Things I see in movies or read in books or just come up with while messing around. As a result, rules which are more flexible provide more enjoyment. If I want to make some Colonial Marines and their APCs and what not - I can...and then I can use a force builder like you find in Defiance to create an army list to game with them. I can do the same for pretty much anything I want. If an independent manufacturer has some interesting models like the Valkeeri from Hydra Miniatures or the Hard Suits from Recreational Conflict - I can get those...paint them up, and they won't be stuck on the shelf. When something fun comes along like Santa with a shotgun and elves with AK-47s, I can pick those up and have them face off against Garden Gnomes from Brigade Games.

Rules like 40K, WHFB, Infinity, Warmachine and all the rest limit my modeling and my gaming. No thanks. Get a group of gamers - play some independent rules till you guys find some that you like...then just have fun with it.