Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?

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**Zid**

For the price of a single vehicle I can get a Colossal for Warmachines... and it takes up half the points in my army. Warmahordes FTW

**Buzzsaw**

Kingsley wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:
I hear people go on and on about how GW is first in quality, but personally I just don't see it anymore. They're just asking for insane amounts of money for some really goofy-looking models now. And the few cases where they do release quality sculpts are marred by the fact that they're usually in Finecast and overpriced.

I think GW is clearly not first in sculpt quality, but they do have by far the best multi-part plastic kits of any manufacturer-- multi-part plastic kits that many of their metal and Finecast offerings are very compatible with. I know of no other wargames manufacturer that makes it as easy and rewarding to truly make your models your own as GW does.

While this is true, it also bears mentioning that, for the most part, GW are the only manufacturer of multi-part plastic kits of this type. There closest competitor in this regard would be... Mantic? Maybe? I know that they have some plastic kits, but for the most part Mantic is using "restic," no? PP doesn't make plastic kits, as the nature of their game system makes them a bad fit, and Wyrd, while they have moved into plastics, also have a skirmish game that doesn't really lend itself to the kinds of kits GW is famed for.

Other then the upcoming DFG infantry kits, is there really anyone making analogous infantry kits? This is not rhetorical, are there any other makers of similar kits?

**Imperial Monkey**

For any Brits wishing to still enjoy the hobby I give you the only thing that has kept me going for the past few years:
http://www.darksphere.co.uk/pgc.php?c=105

£31 for a tank? I don't bloody well think so!
£23? Not brilliant but a damn sight more reasonable!

**madtankbloke**

Like a lot of other people, i started collecting GW stuff almost 20 years ago, the first thing i bought was a blister pack of terminators for £3.99, 2 metal terminators in the pack (if i recall correctly) and, i still have them. all i've done to them is rebase them and strip and repaint them recently. the same can be said for the rest of my collection, i've amassed a very large collection of miniatures, many of them are still unpainted, and while i don't have as large a collection as some people, i no longer have to but lots of things. that makes me more willing to go out and buy that one thing i want for the army, regardless of the price, since i don't have to buy things en masse.

I guess this sort of makes me the kind of customer the items are prices are targetted against, i have a moderate disposable income, and i don't have to scrimp and save to drop money for a new kit, i just buy it. But if i was just about to get into GW games again, the prices probably would give me pause for thought, the prices are not by any stretch of the imagination reasonable for what you actually get. Perhaps they are reasonable when compared to other hobbies, my wife has a private pilots licence, and she goes flying 2-3 times a month, and this costs us around £150-200 each time she does (we're too poor to buy our own plane >.< ) so in comparison my hobbies, of which wargaming is only one are dirt cheap.

I don't think the prices are completely unreasonable, hobbies are something you don't 'need' to spend money on in the first place, but they are approaching it, when your customers start looking at alternatives to your own models to play your game, you should seriously take a look at your scheme. as an example, i recently looked at FW as an alternative to GW for my marine command squad, sure i spent more on the FW models, but they were better, and the difference wasn't all that bid, expensive isn't much worse than quite expensive after all.

The main problem i can see with the price schemes increasing as they are is that poorer people will be forced out of the hobby, and its not as if there are no alternatives to GW like in the good old days, and in the good old days, citadel miniatures were reasonably priced despite almost no competition. i can't also say that the models are particularly good either. i prefer the clean asthetic of the older miniatures to the busy, over the top gothic feel of the more recent ones. i just don't see a reason for all the stuff they put on the models, i mean, there is no reason for it. if you buy a space marine, and paint him blue, he's an ultra marine, green hes a dark angel, red a blood angel and so forth.

the new models aren't as good quality of the sculpts (imo) and the higher prices are pricing a lot of newer poorer people out, i'll still buy things, but then i can, but it won't be like when i was just out of school and single, and could drop £3-400 a month and not worry about it, maybe 1 kit a month

**uberjoras**

Any older U.S.A. players in this thread? How much, in say 1995, did 5 Terminators cost you? 10 tactical marines? A carnifex?

Inflation since 1995 has increased in such a way that $1 USD in 1995 is worth just about $1.50 now. So since then, we should theoretically be seeing a 50% price hike, plus say another 10-15% as the company's costs have certainly increased with their size.

If prices have increased at about that rate, this thread is silly and almost everyone posting in it should feel silly.

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

**Imperial Monkey**

uberjoras wrote:

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

Not really any point in getting all moral like this on a WARGAMING website is it? Yes there are worst things in the world but in the world that this website refers to this is the "worst thing" to a lot of people, so those people decided to see if other people felt similarly and this thread was created. I'm sure everyone has it in perspective to the wider world but this thread and indeed the entire forum is not here to discuss the bigger problems in life.

**Rainbow Dash**

uberjoras wrote:
Any older U.S.A. players in this thread? How much, in say 1995, did 5 Terminators cost you? 10 tactical marines? A carnifex?

Inflation since 1995 has increased in such a way that $1 USD in 1995 is worth just about $1.50 now. So since then, we should theoretically be seeing a 50% price hike, plus say another 10-15% as the company's costs have certainly increased with their size.

If prices have increased at about that rate, this thread is silly and almost everyone posting in it should feel silly.

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

and who are you to deny people from sharing their opinions

I think the codex's are the worst, because its just a book and no book to me (that small and that will become useless in a few years) is worth 60 dollars
most rulebooks for other games don't cost that much
and its something you need to play the game, where as models can be bought anywhere from any company from the net

**Inquisitor Ehrenstein**

It has for me, and anyone else with limited money or who actually understands the value of it.

The mama's boy GW manager who was harassing Dondrekhan about buying an Island of Blood set when he explained several times that he didn't have the money comes to mind. He had no personal expenses and a 50% discount, and had the most entitled modeling practices I have ever seen. I had a talk with him about why he glued down the weapons on his Leman Russes, and he said that it's because he buys an entire tank every time he wants to have different weapons. I also saw him giving modeling instructions to a kid, and he told him to do the same thing, like a total money grabbing donkeycave.

The best part about this guy was when he announced that both me and Dondrekhan don't have the money to play 40k. "If I spend the money (that I have from living with my parents and not having personal expenses) to make my army WYSIWYG, then my opponent should do the same." "If you don't have the money to make your army WYSIWYG then you don't have enough money to be in the hobby."

**Elemental**

Imperial Monkey wrote:
uberjoras wrote:

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

Not really any point in getting all moral like this on a WARGAMING website is it? Yes there are worst things in the world but in the world that this website refers to this is the "worst thing" to a lot of people, so those people decided to see if other people felt similarly and this thread was created. I'm sure everyone has it in perspective to the wider world but this thread and indeed the entire forum is not here to discuss the bigger problems in life.

"First world problems" is quickly becoming drained of all meaning as a catchphrase. It's like saying that because there are people in the world who lost both legs, you're not allowed to say "ouch" when you stub your toe.

One thing for me is that GW isn't really doing any new stuff. When I was into GW big time, about 1997-9, that was the time when new armies were being introduced regularly. Tyranids, Sisters of Battle, Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc. Plus a lot of the Specialist games that are loved even today (Necromunda, Blood Bowl) came out. Now most of the stuff seems to be re-releases made bigger and more Xtreme! than the original, or slight variants on familiar things (the nth new Dreadnought or Land Raider loadout).

**Bat Manuel**

uberjoras wrote:
Any older U.S.A. players in this thread? How much, in say 1995, did 5 Terminators cost you? 10 tactical marines? A carnifex?

Inflation since 1995 has increased in such a way that $1 USD in 1995 is worth just about $1.50 now. So since then, we should theoretically be seeing a 50% price hike, plus say another 10-15% as the company's costs have certainly increased with their size.

If prices have increased at about that rate, this thread is silly and almost everyone posting in it should feel silly.

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

I started in '98 and remember picking up used rhinos for $8 and 10 beautiful new metal terminators for ~$30.

I don't buy any GW these days, but when I look at those models vs. prices

**Rainbow Dash**

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
It has for me, and anyone else with limited money or who actually understands the value of it.

The mama's boy GW manager who was harassing Dondrekhan about buying an Island of Blood set when he explained several times that he didn't have the money comes to mind. He had no personal expenses and a 50% discount, and had the most entitled modeling practices I have ever seen. I had a talk with him about why he glued down the weapons on his Leman Russes, and he said that it's because he buys an entire tank every time he wants to have different weapons. I also saw him giving modeling instructions to a kid, and he told him to do the same thing, like a total money grabbing donkeycave.

The best part about this guy was when he announced that both me and Dondrekhan don't have the money to play 40k. "If I spend the money (that I have from living with my parents and not having personal expenses) to make my army WYSIWYG, then my opponent should do the same." "If you don't have the money to make your army WYSIWYG then you don't have enough money to be in the hobby."

I would have some choice words with someone like that...warhammer isn't even my most expensive hobby, but its the only one where when I buy something, I often feel I overpayed (always when I buy new)
I was much more blunt and honest when I was young
no one at GW has ever been that much of a dick to me, nor would I ever put up with it from some guy trying to sell me model soldiers
sometimes I like to listen to some of the garbage they spout off trying to sell these things and reasons why the models are so much
makes me laugh

**Inquisitor Ehrenstein**

Bat Manuel wrote:
uberjoras wrote:
Any older U.S.A. players in this thread? How much, in say 1995, did 5 Terminators cost you? 10 tactical marines? A carnifex?

Inflation since 1995 has increased in such a way that $1 USD in 1995 is worth just about $1.50 now. So since then, we should theoretically be seeing a 50% price hike, plus say another 10-15% as the company's costs have certainly increased with their size.

If prices have increased at about that rate, this thread is silly and almost everyone posting in it should feel silly.

If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.
I started in '98 and remember picking up used rhinos for $8 and 10 beautiful new metal terminators for ~$30.

I don't buy any GW these days, but when I look at those models vs. prices

I stopped being able to buy Gray Knight Terminators (models are way better, and they're the same price) when I realized the second time that it's $10 for a plastic guy, and it made me feel like a complete loser.

**keezus**

Here's an excerpt fom a post I made a year ago: (as we seem to have this same conversation often... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/426106.page)

Found this: Might be interesting: http://comicfan83.tripod.com/marvelimage4p2.html

Items of interest: - NOTE: ALL THE FOLLOWING MODELS ARE THE SAME SCULPTS IN THE LIST. I've assumed 1996 for the year, based on models listed. IIRC, if it were 1998, we'd see the Vyper in that list. All funds in USD. According to the OP's post, actual inflation since 1996 should be around +50%. Let's see what we find...

-EDIT JAN 7 2012- KEEP IN MIND THAT THE +% IS INCREASE IN PRICE AS A PERCENTAGE OF 1996 PRICE-
-EDIT 2 - Looks like there may be some errors in the currency for the new price as some seem to be CAD price when I checked on the Warp Spiders... Can use as BENCH MARK ONLY-
-EDIT 3 - Looks like they are all CAD price for the present prices... my error... crazy that Eldrad is $21.75 in the US and $30 in Canada. $33 in Aus/NZ. Go team.

0380 ELDAR AVATAR 18.99 ($46.50 - Finecast +145%)
8029B WARLOCK w/WITCHBLADES 6.50 ($13.75, +112%)
8029C WARLOCK w/FORCESTAF 6.50 ($13.75, +112%)
8038A ELDRAD ULTHRAN 8.50 ($30 - Finecast +253%)
8052A ELDAR WARP SPIDERS 6.50 / 8052B ELDAR WARP SPIDER EXARCH 6.50 (Prorated 1996 price: $22.75, $49.50 - Finecast +118%)
8057A KARANDRAS 8.50
8057B JAIN ZAR 8.50
8057C ASURMEN 8.50
8057D FUEGAN 8.50
8057E MAUGAN RA 8.50
8057F BAHARROTH 8.50 ($20.50 +142%)
0786 ELDAR JET BIKE 12.50 ($18 +44%)
0438 ELDAR SHRIEKER JETBIKE 12.99 ($25 +92%)

0466 CHAOS SPACE MARINE BIKE 14.99 ($18 +20%)
8038U ABADDON THE DESPOILER 11.99 ($30 - Finecast +150%)
8038V FABIUS BILE 9.99 ($24 +140%)
8038W KHARN THE BETRAYER 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038X AHRIMAN 9.99 ($25 +150%)

0732 SPACE MARINE PLASTIC BIKE 12.50 ($18, +44%)
8001B SPACE MARINE SERGEANTS 4.50 ($16/14.75, +255%/+227%)
8005J TECH MARINE 5.50 ($18, +227%)
8005K SPACE MARINE APOTHECARY 5.50 ($13.75, +150%)
8005L COMPANY STANDARD BEARER 5.50 ($13.75, +150%)
8038B RAGNAR BLACKMANE 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038C ULRICK THE SLAYER 8.50 ($18 +112%)
8038D NJAL STORMCALLER 8.50 ($19.75 +132%)
8038H MARNEUS CALGAR 8.50 ($19.75 +132%)
8038J AZRIALE AND HELMET BEARER 9.99 ($25, +150%)
8038K ASMODAI, DARK ANGEL CHAPLIAN 8.50 ($20.50 +141%)
8038L EZEKIEL DK. ANGEL CHIEF LIBRARIANS 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038N CORBULO, SANGUINARY PRIEST 8.50 ($20.50 +141% )
8038P CHIEF LIB.MEPHISTON, LORD OF DEATH 8.50 ($25 +194%)
8038Q COMMANDER DANTE, LORD OF THE BLOOD 8.50 ($25 - Finecast +194%)
8038T BROTHER - CAPTAIN TYCHO 8.50 ($24 +182%)

8038R CAPTAIN AL'RAHEM OF TALLARN 6.50 ($18, +177%)
8060A ROUGHRIDERS 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)
8060B ROUGHRIDERS LIEUTENANT 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)
8060C ROUGHRIDER STANDARD 6.50 ($14.75 +127%)

0735 ORK BUGGY 17.50 ($35, +100%)

Observations: The old bike kits increased at around 40% (under inflation, with Chaos bike being the lowest at +20%). -edit- This is probably because bikes were SUPREMELY UNAFFORDABLE back in the day, which is why you seldom saw bike armies, and this was also one of the reasons Fat Bloke's White Scars were SO DAMN COOL. -/edit- The buggy seems to be an annomaly as it doubled in price. The metal characters increased all at least doubled their costs, with the popular ones almost tripling in cost with Eldrad tipping the scales at over 3.5x his 1996 cost. Good on ya, old chap.

The key metric in this list here are: Rough Riders and Warp Spiders, which are the only squads that have remained the same between then and now. Both have gone up approximately 120%, more than doubling the cost of inflation.

**Che-Vito**

The pricing and generally awful balance of armies pulled the rug for me.
I bought ~30 gorgeous models from Brother Vinni, and have sold everything else.

It leaves me with a Terminator-heavy list, that I can play for fun.
Sorry GW: You broke Daemonhunters and Daemons out from under me...I'm done.

**Shadowclaimer**

Its definitely impacted how much I buy, I prefer the Codices in hardcover personally (better collector items that way, harder to damage, my paperback Tau Empire codex is a wreck), but $60 for Terminators is absurd.

Most of the DA price hike is due to the multikit-ability of the new kits, since they have extra sprues for those parts on them, however that doesn't justify $10-20 for me.

**Mattman154**

uberjoras wrote:
If not, then continue bemoaning your fate and posting "woe is me, I can't buy plastic" first-world problem posts. There are worse things in life.

Quit whining about people whining on the internet! Don't you know how lucky you are to even have internet access?!

**redbristles**

I'll still continue to buy, I will just go to places like eBay for more of my impulse buys. I get a lot of enjoyment from my hobby and find that spending a bit of my money a month on some nice things does help sweeten up the working life.

I do look at some sets and know that I will never buy them purely due to the cost. I may not be struggling money-wise but I still don't want to ripped off, the new FC White Council for the Hobbit is probably the best example of this recently. The recent "Limited Edition" obsession that GW seem to have as well is pretty annoying, the collectors edition Codices are lovely I'm sure, but they cost about as much as the main rule book?!

For £30 ish for a nice sized box set for my 'nids though every month or so I can't complain really.

**Druid13**

I don't think I have bought anything from GW in over a year now. If I buy anything related to the hobby its via Ebay or the swap shop. Otherwise GW prices are getting too steep for me. Its a shame too cause I enjoy supporting my FLGS(although I still find other ways to in board games and such).

Watch as the next thing GW does is to go after Ebay for listing minis. At that point I guess I'll be moving on or playing with an outdated army.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Druid13 wrote:
Watch as the next thing GW does is to go after Ebay for listing minis. At that point I guess I'll be moving on or playing with an outdated army.

I don't think GW are going to be going after ebay any time soon. It's completely legal under first sale doctrine or exhaustion doctrine to resell things. Once you've bought something, you are within your right to sell it to someone else, you just aren't allowed to copy it and then distribute the copies or create your own product which infringes on the copyrights of another company/person.

**Kingsley**

Buzzsaw wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
I think GW is clearly not first in sculpt quality, but they do have by far the best multi-part plastic kits of any manufacturer-- multi-part plastic kits that many of their metal and Finecast offerings are very compatible with. I know of no other wargames manufacturer that makes it as easy and rewarding to truly make your models your own as GW does.

While this is true, it also bears mentioning that, for the most part, GW are the only manufacturer of multi-part plastic kits of this type. There closest competitor in this regard would be... Mantic? Maybe? I know that they have some plastic kits, but for the most part Mantic is using "restic," no? PP doesn't make plastic kits, as the nature of their game system makes them a bad fit, and Wyrd, while they have moved into plastics, also have a skirmish game that doesn't really lend itself to the kinds of kits GW is famed for.

Other then the upcoming DFG infantry kits, is there really anyone making analogous infantry kits? This is not rhetorical, are there any other makers of similar kits?

Wargames Factory, Defiance Games, and Dreamforge are trying but are not up to GW quality (yet?), and there are also a few manufacturers making multi-part plastic WW2 infantry but I've been generally unimpressed. I think the lack of competition in this field is in part due to how well GW has sewn up the market-- others are wary to enter into it because it's such a high bar to pass and has many expensive barriers to entry.

uberjoras wrote:Any older U.S.A. players in this thread? How much, in say 1995, did 5 Terminators cost you? 10 tactical marines? A carnifex?

I calculated inflation-adjusted prices a while back using the Internet Archive and found that inflation-adjusted prices for my Marines had actually gone down since 2004 thanks to the availability of models for very cheap in starter sets. Some armies (Necrons, certain Dark Eldar builds) have experienced an outright price drop, but this generally comes from metal kits being converted to plastic. I expect Sisters will look similar if and when they get their big redesign.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Kingsley wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
I think GW is clearly not first in sculpt quality, but they do have by far the best multi-part plastic kits of any manufacturer-- multi-part plastic kits that many of their metal and Finecast offerings are very compatible with. I know of no other wargames manufacturer that makes it as easy and rewarding to truly make your models your own as GW does.

While this is true, it also bears mentioning that, for the most part, GW are the only manufacturer of multi-part plastic kits of this type. There closest competitor in this regard would be... Mantic? Maybe? I know that they have some plastic kits, but for the most part Mantic is using "restic," no? PP doesn't make plastic kits, as the nature of their game system makes them a bad fit, and Wyrd, while they have moved into plastics, also have a skirmish game that doesn't really lend itself to the kinds of kits GW is famed for.

Other then the upcoming DFG infantry kits, is there really anyone making analogous infantry kits? This is not rhetorical, are there any other makers of similar kits?

Wargames Factory, Defiance Games, and Dreamforge are trying but are not up to GW quality (yet?), and there are also a few manufacturers making multi-part plastic WW2 infantry but I've been generally unimpressed. I think the lack of competition in this field is in part due to how well GW has sewn up the market-- others are wary to enter into it because it's such a high bar to pass and has many expensive barriers to entry.
.

I'll post this image again:

That's the new production DFG infantry that's about to be released. If the rest of the range is up to that spec... GW's in hot water as of now. I like Space Marines, I'm painting a bunch up as we speak. But for sculpt quality DFG is knocking GW out of the park.

**Imperial Monkey**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

I'll post this image again:

That's the new production DFG infantry that's about to be released. If the rest of the range is up to that spec... GW's in hot water as of now. I like Space Marines, I'm painting a bunch up as we speak. But for sculpt quality DFG is knocking GW out of the park.

Maybe this is GWs big plan: They wait for the competition to catch them up and then suddenly spring their trap, reducing prices on all their products dragging all the non-believers back into the fold and blowing everyone's minds witht he spectacularity of their move!!
Oh feth...I've blown their cover and ruined the plan...i expect imminent Inquisition arrival.

**Kingsley**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'll post this image again:

That's the new production DFG infantry that's about to be released. If the rest of the range is up to that spec... GW's in hot water as of now. I like Space Marines, I'm painting a bunch up as we speak. But for sculpt quality DFG is knocking GW out of the park.

That image doesn't impress me much. The Tactical Marine sprue has been around since 1998, so that image compares a new model to a 15-year old one. If you put that DFG guy up next to the Dark Vengeance Chosen or some of the new Dark Eldar stuff it would look a lot less disparate-- especially since it looks like that's one of the marines that even uses the old, softer plastic! Further, I suspect the DFG stuff has less posability, accepts less bitz for conversions, etc.

In other words, the DFG guy looks like a good first step, especially relative to what Defiance or Wargames Factory can produce, but saying they've surpassed GW seems premature at best.

**evilsponge**

Leth wrote:
When compared to other luxury products its really not bad in the disposable income category.

I mean 10 years of wargaming costs less than a ring of metal with a worthless rock on it, with better resale value to.

Last I checked that ring doesn't deprecate in value over time. Warhammer should be best described as expensive toys, luxury denotes vanity items meant as pubic displays of social worth.

**KalashnikovMarine**

Kingsley wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'll post this image again:

That's the new production DFG infantry that's about to be released. If the rest of the range is up to that spec... GW's in hot water as of now. I like Space Marines, I'm painting a bunch up as we speak. But for sculpt quality DFG is knocking GW out of the park.

That image doesn't impress me much. The Tactical Marine sprue has been around since 1998, so that image compares a new model to a 15-year old one. If you put that DFG guy up next to the Dark Vengeance Chosen or some of the new Dark Eldar stuff it would look a lot less disparate-- especially since it looks like that's one of the marines that even uses the old, softer plastic! Further, I suspect the DFG stuff has less posability, accepts less bitz for conversions, etc.

In other words, the DFG guy looks like a good first step, especially relative to what Defiance or Wargames Factory can produce, but saying they've surpassed GW seems premature at best.

http://dreamforge-games.blogspot.com/p/kickstarter-28mm-stormtroopers.html

If you check out the contents of a 20 man Stormtrooper kit I'd say you're getting much more pose variety, not to mention a ridiculous amount of bits, even before you add accessory packs which from the image included with said pack will allow for some pretty complex poses like getting ready to leap over cover, without cutting up a model and busting out the green stuff.

**Buzzsaw**

Kingsley wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I'll post this image again:

That's the new production DFG infantry that's about to be released. If the rest of the range is up to that spec... GW's in hot water as of now. I like Space Marines, I'm painting a bunch up as we speak. But for sculpt quality DFG is knocking GW out of the park.

That image doesn't impress me much. The Tactical Marine sprue has been around since 1998, so that image compares a new model to a 15-year old one. If you put that DFG guy up next to the Dark Vengeance Chosen or some of the new Dark Eldar stuff it would look a lot less disparate-- especially since it looks like that's one of the marines that even uses the old, softer plastic! Further, I suspect the DFG stuff has less posability, accepts less bitz for conversions, etc.

In other words, the DFG guy looks like a good first step, especially relative to what Defiance or Wargames Factory can produce, but saying they've surpassed GW seems premature at best.

From the most recent DA release;

With respect to the contents of Dark Vengeance,

GW suffers from increasingly falling into self-parody: their proportions were always bad, they are now simply covering them over with a verdigris of... stuff. Skulls, horns, spikes, chains... they seem to have all the aesthetic sense of a mid-90's cover of Heavy Metal magazine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
...

That image doesn't impress me much. The Tactical Marine sprue has been around since 1998, so that image compares a new model to a 15-year old one. If you put that DFG guy up next to the Dark Vengeance Chosen or some of the new Dark Eldar stuff it would look a lot less disparate-- especially since it looks like that's one of the marines that even uses the old, softer plastic! Further, I suspect the DFG stuff has less posability, accepts less bitz for conversions, etc.

In other words, the DFG guy looks like a good first step, especially relative to what Defiance or Wargames Factory can produce, but saying they've surpassed GW seems premature at best.

http://dreamforge-games.blogspot.com/p/kickstarter-28mm-stormtroopers.html

If you check out the contents of a 20 man Stormtrooper kit I'd say you're getting much more pose variety, not to mention a ridiculous amount of bits, even before you add accessory packs which from the image included with said pack will allow for some pretty complex poses like getting ready to leap over cover, without cutting up a model and busting out the green stuff.

That's an excellent point: while GW maintains the same, increasingly dated, sensibilities, people with access to modern casting are producing simply amazing stuff, with options that GW doesn't even pretend to offer.

Another point, to say "The Tactical Marine sprue has been around since 1998, so that image compares a new model to a 15-year old one." begs the question: why is it that when one goes to GW's website to buy troops for a brand new release, they get...

For $37.25! If they intended to sell at top quality prices, it is no exculpation to say that their sculpts are painfully out of date.

**Kingsley**

Buzzsaw wrote:
In other words, the DFG guy looks like a good first step, especially relative to what Defiance or Wargames Factory can produce, but saying they've surpassed GW seems premature at best.

From the most recent DA release;

With respect to the contents of Dark Vengeance,

GW suffers from increasingly falling into self-parody: their proportions were always bad, they are now simply covering them over with a verdigris of... stuff. Skulls, horns, spikes, chains... they seem to have all the aesthetic sense of a mid-90's cover of Heavy Metal magazine.

I guess I don't understand your point or our æsthetic preferences differ. All those models look overwhelmingly better to me than any of the Eisenkern guys.

**Fafnir**

Proportions

**-Loki-**

Buzzsaw wrote:
GW suffers from increasingly falling into self-parody: their proportions were always bad, they are now simply covering them over with a verdigris of... stuff. Skulls, horns, spikes, chains... they seem to have all the aesthetic sense of a mid-90's cover of Heavy Metal magazine.

That's actually the first time I've heard complaints about the Chaos in Dark Vengeance. Everyone else I've spoken to about them sees them as a return to form for Chaos, the techno-organic look the armour had back in the early days. Also the basis for the complaints that there was no plastic Chosen box set for people wanting to use them as their troops choices.

**KalashnikovMarine**

-Loki- wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
GW suffers from increasingly falling into self-parody: their proportions were always bad, they are now simply covering them over with a verdigris of... stuff. Skulls, horns, spikes, chains... they seem to have all the aesthetic sense of a mid-90's cover of Heavy Metal magazine.

That's actually the first time I've heard complaints about the Chaos in Dark Vengeance. Everyone else I've spoken to about them sees them as a return to form for Chaos, the techno-organic look the armour had back in the early days. Also the basis for the complaints that there was no plastic Chosen box set for people wanting to use them as their troops choices.

Really? I've seen them all over the place even on this website.