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 Dawnbringer wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I had this discussion earlier and using Warmahordes, Infanity and Malfaux (all the "cheaper" companies) as examples were more expensive on a box set by box set basis (though GW need more box sets to make an army so are more expensive) Can you give me examples of companies which release similar scale models (i.e 28mm) that are cheaper than GW?

Perry's, Gripping Beast, Warlord, Conquest Games, Fireforge Games.

And I have already pointed out earlier in this thread that Infinity is cheaper per model than GW if you will compare metal/resin to metal (which is what Infinity figures are made of).

Infinity figures average 8.75 euros for an infantry-sized metal model.

GW figures range from 11-16 euros on power-armored, infantry sized models on marines. Necrons are 9.30 to 16 euros. IG is 8.50 to 16 euros. Orks are 16-18 euros.



Even if you compare it per model, if you consider the material, Infinity is cheaper. Now, if you compare metals to plastic, that's just dishonest.

IMHO, GW's pricing structure has hit the point that it is deterring "informed" potential customers out of the hobby.

Question: Can you play Warhammer 40k right out of the box if I buy Dark Vengeance?
Answer: Yes.
Question: Can more than one player play using the contents of the box?
Answer: Yes.

The absolute cheapest way to start playing is Dark Vengeance, playing Dark Vengance scenarios only. Cost: $100USD

Question: Can you play against other players with models outside Dark Vengance?
Answer: No.

The absolute cheapest way to start playing against other players at non-standard points totals is by using the Chaos side in DV.
Cost: $150 USD (DV + Codex) At this point, the customer is probably starting to get deterred, as you need to buy a book and receieve no additional models for an increase in startup costs of 50%!

The DA get you a bit closer to standard points values, but you need to buy another troop.
Cost: $175 USD (DV + Codex +$25 5 man troop box). This doesn't help things either as DV comes with 48 models for $99 and the add on models are 2.5x as expensive (and often don't even look as good, and you STILL have to buy the $50 codex to use them.)

If DA or Chaos aren't your bag then you're stuck with:
Battleforce + Rulebook (as it's marginally cheaper than DV) + Codex + $20 HQ
Cost: $265 USD

Granted, in the grand scheme of things as mini gamers this isn't bad at all - especially since the DA portion of DV is pretty well stocked, but from a new customer perspective, the appearance of value that DV offers goes downhill immediately, considering that your first $100 investment gets you tons of stuff, and your second $100 gets you almost nothing but is necessary to "unlock" play outside the starter kit. IMHO I don't see how staffers can be expected to defend this structure to new customers. It's like: Selling a console for $100 - able to play the 1 preloaded game, but to play new games, you need to buy the $50 proprietary addon media reader OR selling cars for $10k. It operates and you CAN drive it (on your own property), but you need to spend another $10k to buy the government mandated "upgrade" equipment before you can drive it on public roads (and interact with other drivers).

-edit- I realize that you've always had to buy the addons to play the full game, however in the past, the starters:

3rd ED starter contains the actual retail models w/ full retail BBB "get you by rules" w/ full rulebook, so there was zero shift in percieved value between the starter and the addons since they were one and the same.

Battle for McCragge contained fewer models but for cheaper - There was less of a disparity between price of the models in the starter vs addons, so less of a shift in "value" - 4th ED BfM In addition the starter cost + codex didn't break the magical $100 barrier - $65BfM +$30 codex.

AoBR starts this whole slide into the shift in "value" between starter contents and addon contents. Granted, back then we were still looking at $30 codexes, so the cheapest first mandatory upgrade to break outside the starter box didn't sting quite as much even though it still represented a +50% increase in startup w/ no extra models.

DV provides a crap ton of great looking models in the starter giving a perception of "strong" value, and then follows it up with expensive upgrades and high priced "older models" which look comparatively dated - esp. the 90's era basic marines for a perception of "poor" value on the necessary add-ons.

Anyhow...my 2 credits. YMMV.

 Dawnbringer wrote:
Edit, I noticed you compared the cost of a mounted model to that of a GW space marine. That's just not being honest, why not compare the Conquest mounted model to a GW mounted model (Say a empire knight)? Also, I added in Conquest Games normans as I now see that Wayland have finally added the Infantry to the webstore.

So I did, I apologise, I was quickly zooming around the site (as I said, hadn't heard of these before) and just picked the first "boxed set" I came across, so yes, I'll conceed that point and the box sets you list for them do show them as being cheaper.

By not massively different I mean when it is around 20p difference, if 100 models are going to cost me £170 as opposed to £150 (or another similar amount) then I really don;t see the massive difference there.

But of cause all these are historical miniatures - nothing wrong with that and I accept they are cheaper and if thats the look you want then go for it (I myself have some WW2 tanks in my guard army). If your wanting something Sci-Fi, Fantasy however then GW are one of the cheapest around- or at the very worst are mid range (again, taking about on a model per model basis here - not the cost of an army).

The argument of heroic scale/normal scale isn;t the issue here, some people prefer heroic scale (like me) whilst others perfer normal scale, again, choose which you want but this thread is about the cost of GW pricing people out of the "hobby" and if "the hobby" only meant the games then yes they are, but in the terms of the entire hobby (i.e. painting/kitbashing) then - for the Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff they do they are one of the cheapest - now you might think they are cheap because they are rubbish - but in that case it's not the cost that is putting you off, it's the style - and that is a different argument.

 Flashman wrote:

agustin wrote:
Are Skaven their only real original idea?

In so far as bipedal rat men are an original concept, yes.

Not that original though.

Is Mantic not considered Sci-Fi and Fantasy? Infinity? I've already pointed out that Infinity is cheaper per model. And Mantic is definitely cheaper than GW. In fact, that's Mantic's selling point and marketing strategy.

Sometimes I forget GW's history. They started off as the UK distributors for Dungeons & Dragons. That game had were-rats.

 heartserenade wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I had this discussion earlier and using Warmahordes, Infanity and Malfaux (all the "cheaper" companies) as examples were more expensive on a box set by box set basis (though GW need more box sets to make an army so are more expensive) Can you give me examples of companies which release similar scale models (i.e 28mm) that are cheaper than GW?

Perry's, Gripping Beast, Warlord, Conquest Games, Fireforge Games.

And I have already pointed out earlier in this thread that Infinity is cheaper per model than GW if you will compare metal/resin to metal (which is what Infinity figures are made of).

Infinity figures average 8.75 euros for an infantry-sized metal model.

GW figures range from 11-16 euros on power-armored, infantry sized models on marines. Necrons are 9.30 to 16 euros. IG is 8.50 to 16 euros. Orks are 16-18 euros.



Even if you compare it per model, if you consider the material, Infinity is cheaper. Now, if you compare metals to plastic, that's just dishonest.

Comparing the quality of the figure however (or what it is made out of) is again a different issue - you might prefer to pay more for metal because you view it as a better medium to work with - but then you are not making your decision on price so to say GW prices are putting you off is wrong.

The point is that on a solely price issue (which is what this thread is about, looks/quality/style are all important, but this thread is about price) you get more "hobby stuff" from GW for the price than you do the other SciFi-Fantasy stuff (though not the historical stuff, which I've never noticed before - but thats probably because I just spend my monthly mini budget on stuff I like the look of and don't overly bother about the price).

Yes, from the game stand point you need to spend more for the GW stuff - but from the hobby stand point, of which the game is a part but not the be all and end all (at least to me - others may disagree), you get more stuff to "hobby" with from GW for the same amount of money that you do the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heartserenade wrote:
Is Mantic not considered Sci-Fi and Fantasy? Infinity? I've already pointed out that Infinity is cheaper per model. And Mantic is definitely cheaper than GW. In fact, that's Mantic's selling point and marketing strategy.

Yes, Mantic are cheaper - hence why I say "one of the cheapest" and not "the cheapest". Infinaty is cheaper for metal models sure - but please see what I put above as my reply to that.

 heartserenade wrote:
Even if you compare it per model, if you consider the material, Infinity is cheaper. Now, if you compare metals to plastic, that's just dishonest.

Have you looked at the price per figure of Perry or Gripping Beast metal miniatures? Perry is 6 for £6.50

Infinity is way cheaper than GW on a like-model-to-like-model range. Though nothing Corvus Belli sells is as bad as finecast.

With regards to pricing, I'll quote a post I made discussing DFG pricing and the insanity that is GW prices;

 Buzzsaw wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
We don't know yet, it may be $40... was $30 per box of 20 via KS, but only if you bought 3.

It's a Steal at $30, retail won't be that low.

Not saying they are ugly models or anything but $40 would push them toward the "GW premium kind of thing" which i am no longer doing.

I think you may be pricing yourself out of the market there. Consider that GW generally sells 10 basic troopers for... I was going to say $25, but looking at the site, I see 10 Chaos Space Marines are $37.25(!).

Necron Immortals are 5 for $33. Warriors are 12 for $36.25.

Dark Eldar Wyches and Warriors are both 10 for $29.

Imperial Guard, 10 Catchans/Cadians for $29.00

Grey Knights are 5(!) for $33.00.

Vanilla Space Marines are 10 for $37.25, or 5 for $25 (what? How is that even possible?).

Honestly, when I started responding, I was going to chastize you and point out that 20 Dreamforge troopers at $40 would be 25% cheaper then 20 GW troops at $50... but like you I apparently was thinking of GW prices from years ago.

A more appropriate comparison, such as to tactical marines, would be $40 for 20 compared to $74.50(!), the GW minis having an almost inconceivable 80%+ increase in price!

The only thing even vaugely comparable are 20 DE troops/IG, where 20 runs you $58. Only a 45% premium compared to GW.

Damn, I thought I was getting a good deal with Mark... I didn't realize that GW had gone berserk in the time since I stopped playing...

Now, the point here isn't (just) to point out that DFG's Stormtroopers are an excellent value* but that GW's prices are, well, crazy.

Chaos space marines are nearly $4 each?

Immortals are $6?

Imperial Guard and DE troops are $3 each?

The simple fact is that GW charges what it does because it can. But why can it? Because until very recently the limitations on entering the marketplace of hard plastic figures were so daunting that they really didn't have any competitors (as the notations above show, they have plenty of competition in the area of fantasy/historical and, not by co-incidence, their prices are more reasonable).

For the most part GW simply hasn't had any real competition in terms of sci-fi infantry. PP and Wyrd don't make kits of the same type, since the nature of their games are vastly different, same for Infinity. The only real competition they have had is Mantic, and Mantic suffers from the problem of a) a lot of aesthetic drift (that is, it's very clear when two different sculptors are working on lines) and b) financial constraints.

Mantic didn't go the kickstarter route initially, so they have not been able to make everything in hard plastic, leaving their lines full of things that many hobbyists don't like, things like hybrid plastic-metal kits, sprue reuse and switching from plastic to restic. On top of that, the simple fact is that the casters they have used on some of their plastic projects (q.v. goblins) simply haven't been able to deliver the quality they expected.




*Although it's worth pointing out the number of bits you get in a 20 man kit dwarfs anything, to the best of my knowledge, put out by anyone else. Heck, the accessory sprue contains parts to make 3 Mules!

Stranger83 wrote:

Yes, Mantic are cheaper - hence why I say "one of the cheapest" and not "the cheapest". Infinaty is cheaper for metal models sure - but please see what I put above as my reply to that.

So what companies are pricier than GW that sells Sci-Fi and fantasy, then? Care to give examples?

It seems you need a load of qualitative exceptions in order to make GW look cheap. The miniature range needs to:

a) need to be Sci-fi or Fantasy, and exclude historicals

b) should ignore the material, even if GW itself has price disparity between its materials

What if I want a SoB army, which is mostly all metal? Will GW still be cheaper because you get more more with your money? No.

Conveniently, those who produce plastics are mostly historicals and those who produce in metal/resin (which you compare to plastics) are almost always cheaper than their GW counterparts. Anything can look cheap if you put enough exceptions on your parameters (i.e. Ferrari is the one of the cheapest car if we're only comparing cars with animal logos!).



Note: I know nothing of cars and I do not know what's cheaper on the average: a Ferrari, a Lamborghini or a Jaguar. But you get my point.

Well the prices I quoted for GW when compared to Warmahordes/Malfaux and infinaty were all the exact prices as they stood at that moment for me to buy them from my online retailer of choice - so certainly wasn't prices from a few years ago. OK, yes GW might have a RRP over what others charge, and so are getting a larger discout that the other lines - but so what? what matters to me is the price I pay for them. I recently bought a game in the Steam sale that cost me £10 - the RRP is £60, but I'm not going to say "OMG I it was £60 for the game - it is SOOO overpriced" because it wasn't £60 - it was £10.

Again, I cannot comment on the DFG stuff - I have seen them in passing (and I thought they looked quite nice for something "different") but haven't priced them up yet to see what you get or the cost of them. But even if there is 1/2 companies who are cheaper on a model per model basis - that suddenly doesn't make GW the most expensive.

Now I admit that a complete combination of GW failing may well put you off them - you may not like the style, you may not like the fact that the games are more expensive due to the number of models, you may not like the medium that the models are made out of , you may not like the rules and I'm sure there are others that don't spring immediately to mind.

But to say that GW are pricing people out of the hobby but not say the same about others that - from a hobby stand point (if like me the hobby is more than just playing the game) - are more expensive seems wrong to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heartserenade wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

Yes, Mantic are cheaper - hence why I say "one of the cheapest" and not "the cheapest". Infinaty is cheaper for metal models sure - but please see what I put above as my reply to that.

So what companies are pricier than GW that sells Sci-Fi and fantasy, then? Care to give examples?

It seems you need a load of qualitative exceptions in order to make GW look cheap. The miniature range needs to:

a) need to be Sci-fi or Fantasy, and exclude historicals

b) should ignore the material, even if GW itself has price disparity between its materials

What if I want a SoB army, which is mostly all metal? Will GW still be cheaper because you get more more with your money? No.

Conveniently, those who produce plastics are mostly historicals and those who produce in metal/resin (which you compare to plastics) are almost always cheaper than their GW counterparts. Anything can look cheap if you put enough exceptions on your parameters (i.e. Ferrari is the one of the cheapest car if we're only comparing cars with animal logos!).



Note: I know nothing of cars and I do not know what's cheaper on the average: a Ferrari, a Lamborghini or a Jaguar. But you get my point.

I've already show the comparison twice - but I'll do so again for you:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

I also compared it favourably to sets from Malifaux.

Again, please note this is model per model basis (i.e. a hobby basis) and not on the cost of the game - cause if the cost of the game is all that is important I could play monopoly for cheaper than both

It probably is looking like I'm a GW fanboy just because I'm defending them, but I'm not. All I'm saying is that GW are not the most expensive from a hobby point of view - so if GW are pricing people out of "the hobby" then we should also complain about the other companies who - from the hobby point of view, are more expensive too.

I'm not putting stipulations and exclusions on it - I'm not saying Farari are the cheapest car company if you ignore all the others - a more accurate analogy would be saying that - if you're looking fora supercar then Lotus are the cheapest - which is true. If you're looking for a Sci-fi/Fantasy model GW are (and please note the one of comment here) one of the cheapest to get the models from. thats not saying "GW are the cheapest model company if you ignore historicals" at all.

Ah yes, here is the Malifaux example:

Stranger83 wrote:
Also to add, looking at Malifaux - another one often listed as something to transfer to because of the cost.

I can't find a starter box, so I cannot compare them, but the Hags puppet box set - which seems to contain 5 miniatures - is £23.40, much higher than the 10 space marines. Or the cheapest I could find, Marrionetts (4 pack) - Clamshell - £9.90 , again more expensive than the space marines.

Whilst I grant that there are some out there cheaper than GW (AoW units are cheaper, I'm fairly sure everything I've seen from Mantic is too) this idea that they are massively inflated to everyone else just doesn't pan out if you look at the prices you pay.

Now I admit that it might be that the online shop can reduce GW by 20-25% and the others only by 10-15%, but that is unimportant to me, the customer - what I care about is what I pay.

Again, I often do not buy the GW stuff - either because I don't like the model or I don't like the medium (I still won't buy Finecast unless the model is truely amazing - which I haven't seen yet). But the price of GW has never stopped me buying it - often the stuff I choose to get in replacement of the GW model itself is actually more expensive than the GW model would have been.

any yes, whilst SoB are all metal and so more expensive - they are the exception rather than the rule. Infact I cannot think of a single other line that GW do that doesn't come mostly in plastics - though it has been a long day so I'll stand to be corrected on that.

Funnily enough, if you compare GW Finecast/Metals to Warmahordes single infantry unit, most of the time Warmahordes AND Malifaux will come off as cheaper. But you don't want to compare metal/resin to metal/resin. Even though it's common practice to factor in the cost of material, because surprise surprise, metal costs more.

Then we point out that in the plastics, Perry, Fireforge, Wargames Factory etc. are much more cheaper. But you don't want to compare them because they are historicals, never mind that they are of the same scale and are miniatures which has the same use.


See what I mean? You need to jump into many hoops first before GW will come off as cheap with regards to the rest of the hobby (in which, I pointed out, is cheaper compared to GW, which was the whole point). You need to compare GW plastics to metal/resin and disregard those that produce plastics. It's like saying you are the most handsome guy in the world if you don't take into equation all the other guys more handsome than you. It's absurd.

But playing the game is part of the hobby, and you need a lot more 40K models to play the game than you do for Infinity, Malifaux, etc.

 heartserenade wrote:
Funnily enough, if you compare GW Finecast/Metals to Warmahordes single infantry unit, most of the time Warmahordes AND Malifaux will come off as cheaper. But you don't want to compare metal/resin to metal/resin. Even though it's common practice to factor in the cost of material

Then we point out that in the plastics, Perry, Fireforge, Wargames Factory etc. are much more cheaper. But you don't want to compare them because they are historicals, never mind that they are of the same scale and are miniatures which has the same use.


See what I mean? You need to jump into many hoops first before GW will come off as cheap with regards to the rest of the hobby (in which, I pointed out, is cheaper compared to GW, which was the whole point). You need to compare GW plastics to metal/resin and disregard those that produce plastics. It's like saying you are the most handsome guy in the world if you don't take into equation all the other guys more handsome than you. It's absurd.

I'll happily admit that I think the medium of a model is important - but this thread is about the price and only the price (Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?) not (Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby because the models are plastic?)

I've admited that historicals are cheapear, so not sure why you keep bring them up - but if I wanted a "sci-fi hovering tank" because thats what I fancied building/painting (i.e. hobbying with and not gaming with) then I'm not going to find that in a historical range, for that I have to go to Sci-fi and GW are the cheapest. Going back you your car analogy, if you want a supercar it doesn't matter that there are other cars around cheaper all that you should compare it to is other supercars. Or to go with your handsome guy analogy it's like saying "I am the most handsome redhead on the planet - does that make me the most handsome person, no it doesn;t - but if you wanted a redhead then I'd be your redhead of choice.

Riquende wrote:
But playing the game is part of the hobby, and you need a lot more 40K models to play the game than you do for Infinity, Malifaux, etc.

Even ignoring this, Malifaux, Warmahordes and Infinity is cheaper on a model to model basis if you take note of the materials.

Of course plastic would be cheaper, the same way a dish with crab in it will be cheaper than a dish with lobster. Because lobsters costs more.

Riquende wrote:
But playing the game is part of the hobby, and you need a lot more 40K models to play the game than you do for Infinity, Malifaux, etc.

not for everyone, my friends have no interest in playing, just painting
I know quite a few like that

Riquende wrote:
But playing the game is part of the hobby, and you need a lot more 40K models to play the game than you do for Infinity, Malifaux, etc.

Indeed it is, I've said so many time - but it isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, all I'm saying is that for the same cost you would get more physical stuff from GW than you would from other companies - which is a direct reply to this comment that says you don't:

That's just not correct, GW kits are far more expensive than almost anyone else's kits. I grant you that they do come with more bits, but there are plenty of other places to get bits or other supplies for conversion.

I can buy twice as many figs and vehicles (and bits to convert them if I want) from companies other than GW. Since switching over mostly to non indie games and miniatures, I've spend less and been able to buy far more minis and vehicles.

GW hits you with a double whammy. Not only does their stuff cost more, but you need more of it.
Or put another way...
You spend more, get less, and then you have to spend more again!

I haven't been priced out yet, but I haven't bought a model from aGW store or their website in over a year. My wife works for a comic/gamig store product distributor, so I get them at a giant discount through her, but they don't carry finecast at all. Any finecast models I need I get thru a local comic store to support them, and I know GamesWorkshop seems some $ from that, but at least I'm supporting my FLGS. Beyond that, if I start a new army, it starts as a used army from Ebay. Got about 2.5k of New Dark Eldar fro $250. I also do some comissions to help pay for the hobby. I still think I spend less money on GW stuff than I ever did playing Magic The Gathering...

Stranger83 wrote:
but if I wanted a "sci-fi hovering tank" because thats what I fancied building/painting (i.e. hobbying with and not gaming with) then I'm not going to find that in a historical range, for that I have to go to Sci-fi and GW are the cheapest.

You're not looking hard enough.

http://puppetswar.com/
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/antenocitis/g-o-t-vehicles-1.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Forge-Fathers/Vehicles.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Marauders/Vehicles.html

 heartserenade wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
but if I wanted a "sci-fi hovering tank" because thats what I fancied building/painting (i.e. hobbying with and not gaming with) then I'm not going to find that in a historical range, for that I have to go to Sci-fi and GW are the cheapest.

You're not looking hard enough.

http://puppetswar.com/
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/antenocitis/g-o-t-vehicles-1.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Forge-Fathers/Vehicles.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Marauders/Vehicles.html

Again, pointing out ones who are cheaper than GW doesn't mean suddenly make them the most expensive - it just means they are not the cheapest (which I see I put in the quote but as you'll see in the majority of my posts is not what I've said - I've said they are one of the cheapest).

Yes, there will be some that are cheaper you've shown 2 companies there and so my final choice would be from the GW, either of those 2 or one of the more expensive companies, but if GW had "priced me out of the hobby" then surely the companies that charge more for their models priced me out first? Yet I don't see anyone jumping up and down at the cost of them.

EDIT - apologies - 3 companies

Then show me a company that sells a 28mm "sci-fi hovering tank" that is more expensive than GW. Forgeworld does not count, since it's GW's sister company. To be at least "one of the cheapest", you need to give 3 or more examples, since if that fails it'll put GW in the "one of the more expensive" category.

I'll wait.

Stranger83 wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:
but if I wanted a "sci-fi hovering tank" because thats what I fancied building/painting (i.e. hobbying with and not gaming with) then I'm not going to find that in a historical range, for that I have to go to Sci-fi and GW are the cheapest.

You're not looking hard enough.

http://puppetswar.com/
http://www.antenocitisworkshop.com/antenocitis/g-o-t-vehicles-1.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Forge-Fathers/Vehicles.html
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Warpath/Marauders/Vehicles.html

Again, pointing out ones who are cheaper than GW doesn't mean suddenly make them the most expensive - it just means they are not the cheapest (which I see I put in the quote but as you'll see in the majority of my posts is not what I've said - I've said they are one of the cheapest).

Yes, there will be some that are cheaper you've shown 2 companies there and so my final choice would be from the GW, either of those 2 or one of the more expensive companies, but if GW had "priced me out of the hobby" then surely the companies that charge more for their models priced me out first? Yet I don't see anyone jumping up and down at the cost of them.

EDIT - apologies - 3 companies

I think we can safely affirm that under all those conditions, then yes: GW is the cheapest producer of plastic sci-fi / fantasy GW miniatures. So you are entirely correct that that is indeed the cheapest way to indulge in your very particular hobby that consists entirely of collecting, building, painting and converting plastic sci-fi / fantasy GW miniatures.

Since to the generality of us, our hobby actually consists of collecting, building, painting and playing with wargame miniatures, then GW still is the most expensive option available to a less knowledgeable person.

And again, my personal opinion is that that will drive away newer players but probably won't make any difference to established wargamers unless it is coupled with other factors other than price.

What are Chapterhouse prices like?

PhantomViper wrote:


I think we can safely affirm that under all those conditions, then yes: GW is the cheapest producer of plastic sci-fi / fantasy GW miniatures. So you are entirely correct that that is indeed the cheapest way to indulge in your very particular hobby that consists entirely of collecting, building, painting and converting plastic sci-fi / fantasy GW miniatures.

Since to the generality of us, our hobby actually consists of collecting, building, painting and playing with wargame miniatures, then GW still is the most expensive option available to a less knowledgeable person.

And again, my personal opinion is that that will drive away newer players but probably won't make any difference to established wargamers unless it is coupled with other factors other than price.

you make it sound like it is unusual to be a collector first and a gamer second - I'll point you to the recent Kingdom Death Kickstarter that raised over $1M before it even released the gameplay videos. Now don;t get me wrong, I've very interested in the game for that too but the miniatures are the first and formost thing that I buy, the games being secondary.

As a point of interest I do game fairly regualrly - around once a week - and play a host of games with GW being one of the less common ones (due to the length of the games) but I'm still a collector first and I think you'd bee surprised how many others are (in particular, from my own experiances, amounts older "gamers")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 heartserenade wrote:
Then show me a company that sells a 28mm "sci-fi hovering tank" that is more expensive than GW. Forgeworld does not count, since it's GW's sister company. To be at least "one of the cheapest", you need to give 3 or more examples, since if that fails it'll put GW in the "one of the more expensive" category.

I'll wait.

OK, maybe "sci-fi hovering tank" wasn't the best example - as I've said I've had a long day. I was trying to say something that you can't get from a historical figure company. Maybe a better option would have been "non human humanoid models" as then I can include the Malfaiux, infinity and Warhamhordes that I've already mentioned.

Though I would say that if tanks were in these games then - based on their price structure - I would expect them to cost more than the GW ones

Okay then, show me a more expensive non-human humanoid models that are in plastic that are more expensive than GW. For fairness sake, I'll name three games that produces/produced cheaper plastic figures: DnD minis, Reaper, Wargames Factory and Mantic.

Again, I'll wait.

Stranger83 wrote:
[q
I had this discussion earlier and using Warmahordes, Infanity and Malfaux (all the "cheaper" companies) as examples were more expensive on a box set by box set basis (though GW need more box sets to make an army so are more expensive) Can you give me examples of companies which release similar scale models (i.e 28mm) that are cheaper than GW?

Mantic
Perry
Wargames Factory
Defiance Games
EM4
4 A miniatures
Mega Miniatures
Reaper
Ral Partha
Dreamforge (out soon)
Warlord Games
Victrix

And that's just off the top of my head.
GW is near the top of the list for price per miniature.

Stranger83 wrote:

you make it sound like it is unusual to be a collector first and a gamer second - I'll point you to the recent Kingdom Death Kickstarter that raised over $1M before it even released the gameplay videos. Now don;t get me wrong, I've very interested in the game for that too but the miniatures are the first and formost thing that I buy, the games being secondary

I don't make it sound anything, it is unusual to only be a collector and if nothing else we have the example of Wyrd and Malifaux to prove it (and probably many others, but that is the first that comes to my mind), despite what GW might say, they wouldn't sell 10% of what they do if they didn't have a game attached to their miniatures (and neither would any other mini manufacturer).

And I'm perfectly aware of the KD kickstarter, but since we have no possible way of knowing how many people bought into it only for the miniatures, compared to how many people bought it for the conjunction of game + miniatures, that example doesn't prove anything.

 heartserenade wrote:
Okay then, show me a more expensive non-human humanoid models that are in plastic that are more expensive than GW. For fairness sake, I'll name three games that produces/produced cheaper plastic figures: DnD minis, Wargames Factory and Mantic.

Again, I'll wait.

Again, the question of this thread is purely price - the medium of the model is not in question in the tread. Yes, GW are the most expensive plastics, yes they are probably the most expensive resin (since I've not seen a finecast model that is worth me looking into putting up with Finecast I've not checked) but this thread is asking about price and nothing else. I'm not sure why you seem to be strugleing to understand that.

Now if you want to start another thread about if GW charge too much for their plastics in comparison with other companies that make plastics then I will gladly join you in accepting that they do - but that is not what is being debated in this thread.

Stranger83 wrote:

Again, the question of this thread is purely price - the medium of the model is not in question in the tread. Yes, GW are the most expensive plastics, yes they are probably the most expensive resin (since I've not seen a finecast model that is worth me looking into putting up with Finecast I've not checked) but this thread is asking about price and nothing else. I'm not sure why you seem to be strugleing to understand that.

But you said GW is one of the cheapest when I have shown you evidence that, clearly, they're not. They have one of the most expensive plastics and they have the most expensive resin/metal AND they require the most number of miniatures in order to play, but they're one of the cheapest... somehow? I'm not sure why you're struggling to understand that.

But don't let evidence and reason and your own words get in the way of your argument.

 heartserenade wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

Again, the question of this thread is purely price - the medium of the model is not in question in the tread. Yes, GW are the most expensive plastics, yes they are probably the most expensive resin (since I've not seen a finecast model that is worth me looking into putting up with Finecast I've not checked) but this thread is asking about price and nothing else. I'm not sure why you seem to be strugleing to understand that.

But you said GW is one of the cheapest when I have shown you evidence that, clearly, they're not. They have one of the most expensive plastics and they have the most expensive resin/metal, but they're one of the cheapest... somehow? I'm not sure why you're struggling to understand that.

But don't let evidence and reason and your own words get in the way of your argument.

they are not is you compare the medium of the model, but the fact is I can buy 10 "non human humanoids" from GW for cheaper then I can buy 10 "non human hunaoids" from the others.

Let me put it this way - you're band new to the hobby - you have no idea about how different mediums for the model affects they detail of them, all you know is that your mate has said you should try wargaming and showed you some cool fantasy models that you liked. - Now you go to a shop and see you can buy 10 models for £15 from company 1 or 10 models for £20 from company 2. Based on that which company are you going to say is too expensive and thus "priced you out of the hobby (again, see how I am making the comment based upon what this thread is actually discussing)

the fact is - and it's the only fact I've made on multiple occasions, i've never claimed anything else despite what you are saying I said, is that you get more actual models from GW for your money than you get from any other - that is a fact and any claim that you don't. Even if said other models come in a better medium you still don;t get more of them. Thus - in terms of getting more hobby stuff GW is the cheaper of the ones that are more expensive